My nine month old labrador (who has an excellent temperament) started growling about two weeks ago if my partner or I stroke her whilst she is eating. We have always stroked her neck and put our hands in her bowl whilst she is eating to try and prevent this. She is fine with bones/treats and toys etc. She only does it at her meal times. Any suggestions please?
Thanks

Me personally I would hand feed her so much at a time and make her do something for it. Ex. Make her sit - some food, make her laydown- some food, ect ect. And do this at every meal, and pet her while you offer her her food. She growls say no and take it away. Then try again about 3 min later, then 5 min later go through everything all over again. U could even hand feed her instead of putting it into her bowl while petting her, then gradually put the food in her bowl while petting her at the same time.

I'm sure other people will be along with other idea's.

Good luck :)

ttfn :)

Another way of helping your dog understand that hands coming near him when he is feeding are not a threat to him is to use the 3 or 4 bowl trick. Split the usual meal into 3 or 4 portions and put one portion in the bowl and give to your dog as usual. When the bowl is empty replace it immediately with another bowl with the second portion in. While the dog is eating that put a third portion in bowl one and replace bowl 2 when it is empty etc etc. Your dog will soon realise that hands are only giving food - not taking away so there is no need to grumble. I know your dog is growling when you stroke him but it is quite possible that he thinks your close proximity means you are going to take away his food.

Once you've got your dog happy about hands being near him again I would question why you feel you need to stroke/pet your dog when he is eating. If you were eating a meal which you had waited for and were enjoying wouldn't you wish people would just leave you alone to get on with it? I think I might feel a bit naffed off if someone wouldn't let me eat in peace - your dog may feel the same!!

I disagree. You should be able to do whatever you like with your dog whenever you like (within reason)... my dogs enjoy being fussed when eating. I think that allowing a dog to have its food with no fear of interruption or interference from the owner simply allows the dog to feel it has the upper hand (should it be that kind of dog), i would not tolerate a dog in my house growling over food, I don't care whether it doesn't like being interrupted or not - its a dog!! ;)

"I don't care whether it doesn't like being interrupted or not - its a dog!!"
Interesting attitude - so where do you draw the line? What else would you justify subjecting the dog to because "it's a dog" ? Why is caring what our dogs are happy or uncomfortable with a sign of letting them get the upper hand?? Surely it is simply a sign of respect for another living creature? Of course sometimes they have to do things they would not naturally choose to (as do we) but if we are making a dog do something it is uncomfortable with there should be a better reason for it than "it's a dog", surely?

Growling is a dog's way of communicating discomfort. If you suppress it you get a dog who cranks up a gear and will bite without growling. Very dangerous. Surely better to take some time to understand why the dog is growling? We know she is of excellent temperament - we know that she doesn't object to toys and bones being taken away - doesn't sound like she has world domination on her mind to me.... But clearly she is upset by proximity while eating. I agree that she needs to learn it is OK for people to be nearby when she eats - especially if there are children around - but I can't for the life of me see why any dog has to be subjected to petting and fussing while it is eating! And taking her food away or subjecting her to being petted when she is clearly unhappy is only going to reinforce her anxiety and possibly force her to do something more serious to make her point.

Sounds to me like she needs reassurance that people being close to her while eating is not a threat. "Dog behaviour" gave a good suggestion for a positive way of doing this - make people being close a good thing and hands nearby positive. I would try that - and feed her somewhere where you are around but doing other things so she gets used to eating when people are about but without the fixed attention she is concerned about.

Janet

Beckets... I would not tolerate a dog of mine growling over food - simple as that. I have never had to hit one of my dogs, or punish them, they were just trained from an early age not to be possessive over food. I'm afraid that I believe that dogs are happy being dogs and know that I am the hand that feeds them, so therefore I am quite within my rights to take it away again. There have been many past subjects on this, and each time someone has been suffering from not training the puppy from the beginning that it is OK for the owner to remove their food, and give it back again. What happens if a dog has the attitude that it should be left alone when eating, and goes and steals a cooked bone or something dangerous? My dogs would give it up to me straight away (after a small chase around the garden probably).

I have very big dogs (Danes) and therefore it is very important to lay down the rules at an early age - you cannot have a dog of that size being aggressive over food. I don't constantly mess with my dogs food or interrupt them when eating, but should I need to, I can...and they would never growl at me.

Chloe

I also have large dogs (a guarding breed) and expect to be able to (and can) handle them and their food when eating. I make sure that as puppies they get used to being hand fed and me moving around and touching them while they eat - and I can take food away from them, move their dishes, touch them etc with no problems! But that doesn't mean I feel the need to bother them continually when they are eating. I am not saying that you do either - but the poster does sound like she has perhaps been overdoing it (for all the right reasons) so isn't it reasonable to suggest that the dog is also given some space? You say these problems are always a result of not training the puppy - if you read the original post they have been doing just that - perhaps the problem here is that they have been overdoing it to the point that the dog is feeling threatened? I did not suggest for a moment that nothing be done about the dog growling - only that it might be a good start to think about why she is growling - and that it is *not* necessarily about her trying to get the upper hand.

And I was also questioning your assertion that you don't care what dogs feel because they are dogs! I quite agree that dogs are happy to be dogs - never suggested otherwsie. But being dogs doesn't mean that they do not have genuine likes, dislikes, fears etc! I set clear boundaries for my dogs and expect them to live by these - but if my dog growled at me I would always ask myself what they were trying to tell me!

Janet

Becketts - my point is that I do not agree that a dog should feel it has the right to be left alone to eat... and that was all i was responding to - I wasn't querying any of the other advice. If my dogs are eating in the kitchen and I need to push past them to get to the bin or something, then I'm not bothered if they don't like it that they have to move, because that the way it should be IMO! They should be used to moving out of the way, even when eating. Can you imagine what would happen if they weren't used to that and my son (aged 3) wanted to get past to go outside? My dogs are bottom of the food chain here, I'm not talking of pack structure and all that clap trap - just talking about dogs in the same was they have always been talked about - companions, guards, and family members - but still dogs. :)

Incidentally, I don't think the poster above has been overdoing the food thing, I just think there dog is trying her luck at the moment, she is obviously approaching the teenager stage and, as she is a lab, I would up her training in other areas to get her concentrating on me, and definitely concentrate on leave, sit, and wait before I put the food down.

I think then perhaps I have misunderstood your original post - as you seem to be misunderstanding mine now. I apologise if that is the case. I quite agree that dogs have to be able to tolerate being touched etc - pushed past, moved or whatever when it is necessary - as I said in my last post that is exactly what I do to train my dogs to be relaxed about their food. But that is entirely different from standing over them and stroking them etc just for the sake of it. The first is required in the normal run of living in a house with dogs - the second is not.

It is always very difficult if not impossible to judge what is going on with a dog from one post. Only the owner or people seeing the dog's behaviour can do that. She may well be being a bolshy teenager - the thing that made me think she perhaps she isn't is that she is not showing this behaviour over bones and toys (bones especially). I was just suggesting an alternative possibility for the poster to consider - that she may be feeling uncomfortable with the attention. Could be either one of those things - or something else again - the important thing surely is to try to understand the reason before deciding on the remedy?

Janet

I guess we are doing the best we can in light of a brief post with not much information :) I agree, there is no point in harrassing the dog when eating. I also guess it depends what bones she means - something like rawhide or nylabone might not provoke a response, but a nice meaty bone from the butcher might! :) Hopefully the poster will return and give us more info. I think we are both singing from the same hymn sheet, just in a different tune :D

Absoultely Chloe

It would be mayhem in our kitchen with 3 breakfasts or dinners down & a small boy etc etc. If I want to move it, I will. And so will my son (3.5) if he needs to go past for any reason.

Mind you, none of my boys have ever felt the need to "assert themselves", even as "teenagers"

Chloe

I think you need to re-read my post. I am not saying that you should tolerate a dog growling when its eating which is why I suggested a method of undoing the behaviour!

You say you believe you should be able to do what you want when you want to any of your dogs 'within reason'. That's my point - what is within reason. Personally, I believe if you've given the dog its dinner it should be allowed to eat in peace - the fact that you've taught it its food is not under threat from anyone or anything is sufficient for it not to have reaon to growl if anyone should go near it. I would still question why touching it at that time is necessary - what point does it prove other than that you can?

If I was so insecure in my position of leader that I had to use such times to continually re-assert my 'mastery' over my dogs I'd be a very unhappy lady with a massive sense of failure in my role but then that's just me. I have never been without a dog(s) in my home for 33 years. At present I have 3 - all rescue dogs and only ever once have I had a dog that has growled over food - she was 6 years old when she came to us and had always done so as her previous owner advised us of this. She doesn't do it now. During those years I have had children and grandchildren and none of them has been bitten, snarled at or growled at with or without the involvement of food so I guess what works for me ........works.

Elaine

Dog Behaviour

This subject has been done to death - do a search on it.

Incidentally, if you look at some of my previous posts you will see I don't believe in dominance theories, or being "masterful" - but I do believe in the old fashioned method of removing a puppies food whenever I chose, so that food possession doesn't occur. I'm not going to carry on with this because I bored with it - suffice to say the majority of posters having problems with their dogs on here over food have not done any training as puppies...by whatever method. I prefer my methods - and they work - so lets leave it at that.

Perhaps the subject has been referred to before but obviously this is a new post and the poster was not aware that previous threads existed so my reply was for her benefit.

Yes, dogs should be trained from an ealy age to tolerate people near their food. The original poster's dog had not previously complained about being touched but it is now and that's the point. Something needs to be done to undo the dog's current response to being touched/having people near when it's eating!

And yes, I can and do remove food from my dogs when I need to. I can even take a bone out of my dogs mouths if and when I need to because they trust that I have a very good reason, that I do not want it for myself and they will be given it back. But, I don't make a point of interfering with my dogs when they are eating just 'because I can' or because it proves to them that they are lower down the scale of things to have me do so. (you referred to 'allowing dogs to eat without interruption or interference from their owners simply allows the dog to think its got the upper hand')

Surely it is not necessary to lock horns on this - I thought we were trying to offer constructive advice to someone experiencing a problem with their dog with the back up of personal experience to validate suggestions. The original poster must be wishing they'd never opened their mouth by now and that would a shame because there are great sources of information and help on this site and would be sad if people were reluctant to open up areas of discussion.

Just to comment on touching the dog when eating. My child at age 2 she would dig her hands in Taz's (hybrid-wolf/rott now 158pounds) and Cuervo's (shepherd/collie) food and play with it. Each and everytime her hand went in they would stop eating, then my daughter would hand feed them all the time petting and hugging them. Funny they were happy to have her feed them. To this day both my children can do this to them Taz is now 9 1/2 years old and Cuervo has passed on. I do have 4 boston terriers which both my children can do this. They throw food up for them to catch and I guess they make a game out of it. I like the fact that when my dogs are eating and if need be I can or the children can go pet them, stick their hands in their food whatever it may be. My reason for this is because what happens if something falls that is real tasy to them and not good for them I want everyone in the house to be able to take it away with out the worry of a possible bite. I would never allow a dog to growl at me while eating. How ever rude this may sound they are a dog and at the bottom of us people. All my dogs are use to being fussed over while eating in the beginning, not as much now because I know I can remove food, pet them, hug them when they are eating. Even when I had pups I hand fed them (wet down puppy food)from the start and petted, fussed over while they were eating for the full time they were here, and even when they were nursing on mom I would gently stroke them and mom.

I don't care if my dog is eating, chewing a bone, or just sleeping I should and will fuss over my dog when I please not when they please. When u have kids they do fuss alot over a dog and a dog should be able to tollerate it. To my dogs it is normal and not one minds, they will carry food in their mouth drop it beside u sometimes and then eat it up and go get more. lol :D they can be funny

This is just my own opinion :)

ttfn :)

Hi chloeh,
I agree with you a dog should never growl at you. It is your food you give to your dog. In the wild for the leader wolf the food is always his and it only goes to the rest when he is finished but he can if he wishes take it back at any time. There are times you need to take the bowl back to add minerals or cod liver oil or something else. your dog may be eating the wrong thing like a chick leg bone. If you send your dog to the kennels what happens if they do the same do they get bitten. So long as you can always do this if need be and take your dogs food away for just a moment that is fine but if you cant then you need to re-establish the owners as the leaders not the dog. There are some good tips here hand feeding or holding yougut tubs for them to lick out so hands are normal and not a threat but I do like the 4 bowl trick. You can try putting the bowl down then lifting it up for a moment them looking at it and replacing it on the ground. Growling is a dominancy problem so please treat it that way and correct.

We adopted an Akita dog early this year. He had had a really hard 18 months, spending the last 4 in kennels. When he came home he was fine for a few weeks, very friendly and loving. Then he began growling over his food if we so much as walked past. The very first thing we did was contact a canine behaviour specialist. She advised us to put his food down for him and stand there until he was finished, praising him for being nice. If he growled while we were stood there we were to tell him NO, BAD DOG make him lie down, take the food away and try again 30 minutes later. We then began walking past him when he was eating, giving the same punnishment if he growled at us. We then progressed to placing the food in his bowl by the handfull. As he ate one handfull we would place another to replace it.
It worked wonders. Making him lie down showed him that we are dominant over him, therefor we can walk near him as we please whatever he is doing. Replacing the food showed him that we were there to give the food, not remove it.
He is absolutely perfect now, not a single problem for months.
Try it, it worked for us.

I'm glad that worked for you, but IMHO from what you have said, the first part of the advice could have gone very wrong indeed.

For example with a big and powerful dog such as an Akita, advising an owner to take the food away if he growls is to me, fraught with danger. It's also teaching him that he was right to warn the owner away from his food as it is highly possible his food will be taken away.

The second part (placing food in his bowl by handfuls) i agree with, it has been proven time and again to work, but why didn't the canine behaviour specialist just get you to do that in the first place!! Beats me :D But as you say it worked for you - i worry about people reading it though, and getting bitten for their pains :(

lindsay

I agree with Lyndsay - by taking the bowl away, by the nature of the excercise you are putting your head and face right in the most dangerous place should a dog be food gaurding and really want to follow it through - far better to desensitise them first by adding food........

You're right, Lindsay. If a dog growls at you because he is afraid he will lose his food, and you then take his food away, it proves to him that you are not to be trusted and that he was right to growl. He is likely to guard it even more fiercely next time......

I completely agree, I know somebody with a GSD whose family have had them for years and they follow "old fashioned" methods. Their four year old female recently growled at firstly one of their children, secondly at her owner, when chewing a chewy. Their answer to this has been to take the chewy away "for a couple of weeks" and then to give it to her again - hence her growling has now progressed from being one of the children to even the adult. I have tried to explain that the reason the dog growls is fear that it will be taken away, and she is simply reinforcing it, instead she should in the first instance offer another reward in place of it, something tasty, then give the chewy back, but they won't listen [I am a first time dog owner and everyone thinks I'm hysterically funny following the "reward methods], so I don't know what will happen in the end. Nicki

Sadly, I can guess, Nicki. When the dog realises that growling won't stop them taking it away, she'll increase the deterrent. First snapping, then getting progressively worse....
:(

I don't think you should rubbish methods that other people have used very effectively for years on the back of half a hearsay story! There are several reasons the dog could be growling at the owners - lack of training in other areas for example. I have always taken pups food away, fussed dogs when I choose, and removed chews (when they are down to the knuckle bit of a rawhide bone for example) and never had a problem - and never had to offer something in return either. So I remove a chew and the dog doesn't get it back again - so what??! If a dog has such feelings about food then you're in for trouble all the way IMO :)

Chloe :)

Edit to say - if my dog growled at me at four years old (assuming I had had the dog from a puppy) then I would take away the chew and all the rest of the toys and the dog would have to earn them from then on. For example, he would get his toys back one by one only when I was sure he had remembered all his commands and would "leave" when told. I would also get him to training (if he was a high maintenance breed), and also get him checked by a vet :) And if he growled at one of the kids...then I'd have to consider rehoming - because I could not toerate a dog growling at one of my kids for any reason (except pain for example)

I agree entirely that it should never have got this far, Chloe, but it has. It sounds as if this dog needs retraining, and this continual reinforcement of the bad behaviour won't do that!

Edited to add: the methods thay are using clearly aren't effective, so that must stop and they should try something completely different. As you and I (and I'm sure everyone else) agree, the aim is to get the dog accepting happily the owners doing what they want with its food.
:)

Neither will allowing the dog to think that when it growls over food the owner backs off or gives it a treat! I agree the swapping method could work... but if the dog had been trained in the first place not to be possesive over food (by whatever method - including old fashioned ones) then surely this wouldn't have happened! :)

Quite right - it is vital that the owner doesn't back off from the growl, because that also reinforces the growling. The best thing, IMO, is to give the dog an empty bowl and add food to it as she eats. With chews, to offer the dog a chew but to keep hold of it all the time to start off with. Only when the dog is quiet and accepting of this should it be allowed control of the chew.
:)

Yep - I'd agree with that :) Thats a good compromise.

:)

Hi Chloe,

I also agree with what you've said, I think I should clarify what I meant by old fashioned methods, it was not meant to be a criticism of anyone who as you say, have had dogs for a long period of time and have been successful, I was more talking about those who teach dogs by choke chains and pain, which I do not agree with, so I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression. Also when I said to give the dog a treaet in exchangge for a chew, I did not mean all the time but when when Buster was first training and had chews/toys in his mouth, initially we called his name, he looked up, we gave him a treat, took the chew off of him, made him sit and then gave it back. This has worked and we have never had any problems, we do not need to do this anymore, it was merely a method of training that has worked for us, I agree that if he had growled then he shouldn't be rewarded for it, of course!

MY 17 weeks Gsd started to growl at my daughter so we started the method my daughter (sophie) holiding the bowl of food on her lap ( whilst sitting on the floor) and feed her by hand, then the next feed time che put the bowl on the florr and hand feed her, the next feed we let Sophie hand feed as well as pup eating from bowl. All of this was going on by either myself sitting on floor wiht Sophie and pup or her dad. The next feed pup was allowed to eat whilst Sophie stroked her and i'm glad to say growling has stopped. We have a bust house hold with 3 kids 10, 8 and 4, the 4 yr old is always with the dogs feeding, sleeping, playing so we could not allow this growling to carry on incas one of the kids ran past them and got bitten. Dogs should not be allowed to grol around kids or adults, what happens when the dog has a chew and you go past them, or have to take it from there mouth cause the are kecking on it ? you have to help them retrieve it.

Whilst I agree it's worrying to have a dog that persists in growling at family members, a dog has to be allowed to have some kind of way of alerting adults present that they aren't comfortable with a situation, I would never discourage a dog from growling completly.

I only discourage growling when it is over food

no dog should ever growl over food it is unsafe if you have childern . with our standard dachshund she doesnt care what you do with her food - she is on a special diet of samon and poataio woofcol given to us by the vet . i pick it up and feed her bits it make it more intresting. when we got our mini should wouldnt let any one near it . so i sat with her while she was eating (as she loves me most) then stroked her she growled but i talked to her told her not to after a week of this she would let me take her bowl ect then i got my brother made him sat with the and stroke her and she growled the next days she was fine and from then on everyone can touch her , this came about because she had snapped at my sisters friend who was 8 and i knew that she wouldnt saty if she carryed on because we have loads of kidds running through our house every day

My GSD is on wafcol potato and salmon it's a great food and would recommend it to anyone, it brings there coat up a treat, sorry to change from the subject, but it is a good diet