Hi all,
Why is it that when the prevention of pyometra is mentioned as a valid reason for routine spaying, many breeders dismiss it?
Yet, if some one loses a much loved bitch due to the condition, many seem to have had a bitch with this condition or know people who have. Sadly, it appears, not uncommonly with the loss of a previously healthy bitch and loved companion.

I have never understood why retired brood bitches are not spayed, or...why many, not all, breeders have such a negative attitude towards it.
I know that there are numerous pro and con threads of spaying and not wishing to start another! Just an observation I have recently made.
I'd also like to say, I can appreciate how devastating such a loss must be to caring breeders and sympathise. As an owner of companion dogs, I'd always risk (small) the anaesthetic to have them spayed.
I'd love to see more breeders advocate neutering, but understand that they are of course entitled to their views.

Hi,
I suppose it goes along the lines of "why don't women have a hysterectomy when they are too old to have babies"? Having lost a bitch due to spaying, I am always terrified when I have another operated on, in case it happens again.

Not really, Jeangenie, women don't need to stay in the house for 6 weeks a year for fear of a man leaping upon them :o or savaging their poor little husband walking along beside them :D

I agree, I think it's a good idea! after all, men and women are sterilised when they don't intend having more babies.

I lost a cavalier to pyometra 15 years ago, if I had been told that by having her spayed it would have prevented it, then I would of had it done without hesitation

I too, lost a cavalier to Pyometra, in 1998, she was 12 years old, and never been bred from.
She had a bad heart, and couldn't take the GA.
I had had a 2 year old cavalier some years before that, who was spayed in an emergency, because of the same thing.
Subsequently, after losing Holly, the very next year, both of my then 8 and 7 years old cavaliers showed signs of pyometra, and were spayed within 6 months of each other as a precautionary measure.
However.......every one of the cavaliers that I had spayed, ended up with coats like cotton wool, and were near impossible to groom. I had to resort to a grooming parlour, even though cavaliers shouldn't need to be trimmed.(In fact, if you show, I believe they should not be trimmed, exept for the pads of the feet.)
My 2 youngest cavaliers, have not been spayed. I, too, would object most strongly to anyone suggesting that I undergo a hysterectomy just because I am not going to be bred from!
Although I don't show or breed my dogs, I can fully understand any show person not wanting to spay, because my experience is that the dogs' coats go like haystacks afterwards!
I am ultra aware of the signs of pyometra, and should any of my babies show any sign, then they will be spayed, as a medical necessity.
Until then, like me, they will be surgically interfered with as little possible!!

Sami

Jenny, how many men do you know who have been castrated, and women had a full ovario-hysterectomy, when they have decided their 'breeding' days are over? I know none! I know many who have had vasectomies, and women with their tubes tied, but that's an entirely different (and reversible) procedure.
:)

Seriously, Jeangenie, you can't compare dogs with humans, it is quite rare for women to get pyometra and if they do they will be aware of something wrong and will report it usually in plenty of time to treat it, similarly endometrial cancer will show signs and be reported early with a good outcome, a bitch could be brewing pyometra for sometime perhaps reaching a critical stage overnight when the owner will be unaware.

Oh dear Sammi, what a bad experience you have had as far as pyometra and your dogs goes :(
I appreciate that you like a cavalier to have a silky coat, but at what price?
I don't think coat loss will be of too much concern to breeders, as they do not show neutered dogs? I believe I am right in saying this?
Obviously brood bitches could not be spayed, but once retired, can't see any real reason not to. At least more benefit than drawbacks.

Wooly coats seem to be a problem in only certain breeds as I understand?
I have a beautiful long coat Chihuahua, spayed, wonderful silky fur.
Okay a show judge may well be able to knit pick over it, but to me she is beautiful :)
As a caring owner I put her welfare first, who cares anyway if she'd gone a bit fluffy :)

I know many breeders sell on their unwanted ex brood bitches, young adults that don't make the grade ...wouldn't spaying them first save the ethical, caring breeder the worry of if they will be bred from, either intentionally or otherwise? Save them from the life of a puppy farm bitch even :(
Is it the cost that puts them off?

Hi Honey,
Actually, neutered animals can be shown, providing the KC has been informed in advance. I have had one ex brood bitch spayed, and she has been the only one to have gained weight and started to dribble urine :(
Don't get me wrong, spaying can be a lifesaving operation. I just don't think it should be routine. But I confess to being sentimental about my dogs. Perhaps if I thought of them as "only animals", which logically they are, I would be less concerned.
:)

Perhaps if I thought of them as "only animals", which logically they are

They are animals, but they're not, they're much more then that, and if we didn't love them as such this site would probably not exist, because we wouldn't need to bother to try and find the best ways of treating our dogs.

Robert

Edited to say, that doesn't say what I mean , but I know what I mean..............I think

This is getting very confusing. On the one hand people say "you can't compare animals to humans", then other people say that dogs "are much more than just animals".

Where do they come, then?

Certainly if I apply the 'who would you save first from a house fire' test, then I'd save my children and husband first, then the dogs, then anything else :) Although I love my dogs to bits, I do believe that they deserve respect AS DOGS - not honorary humans tho' :)

Daisy

Well I've had my tubes tied and it certainly WAS NOT an option for reverse, even though we tried for years to get it done.

I'm sorry you had problems in the past, but it's not an every day occurance, you were very unlucky, most spaying operations go smoothly and the dog goes on to lead a very happy healthy life!

We are talking about dogs here (animals) they can't tell us what they want, I'm sure if they could most of them wouldn't want to go on and have litters either :-) :-)

I think with dogs it really does depend on what personal experiences one has had, and how afraid of operations one is.

My first Terv bitch wasn't spayed as her litter sister died under anaesthetic, so i was no way going to have her done. Vets tended to see them as GSDs too, and overdo the anaesthetic which was part of the problem, as they are much lighter than a GSD. This was back in the 80's. But at the age of 10 and a half she had a pyo and thank God she had the operation and pulled through to live another 5 years. Her coat wasn't the same but who cared - i had my happy healthy dog :)

Having heard of several very young dogs who have had pyo, and having had the fear of it in my life, i chose after much debate to have my young bitch spayed. But i can quite understand those who have never had a bitch with pyo feeling it's not right to spay. It really isn't an easy decision. Maybe i will have a dog next time and not a bitch !!!

Lindsay

At one time I thought it was only older bitches who developed pyometra, but learnt that this was not so :(
I am just amazed at how many people on here (though I really shouldn't be) have had bitches who have developed it. It is a terrible thing and obviously not always so easy to diagnose :(

Well my friend has had her tubes tied and they have agreed a reversal and said it has a 75% success rate - obviously another NHS postcode lottery.

I'm afraid I agree with JG - as long as you are vigilant, look after your bitches while in season and can guarantee no unplanned matings, and familiarise yourself with the symptoms of Pyo then the choice should be yours on whether to spay or not. Danes are susceptible to bloat, all I can do is try and prevent it - not stop owning danes... :)

But lets face it, the average dog owner isn't vigilant and hasn't got a clue what the signs of pyo are. I'm not saying they don't care for their dog, but that they are not as 'into' dogs as us on here. Most dogs are just family pets and nothing more.
It is down to the individual at the end of the day as to whether they spay/neuter or not. And obviously if you've had problems after getting a dog spayed/neutered, then that is going to put you off getting it done in the future. It probably would me, but fortunately i've never had any problems. So i will continue to get it done.
I agree that there is no comparison between dogs and humans. Again MOST dog owners aren't as responsible as us.

It's not just a case of responsibility :) If someone has sole charge of the dogs, then they can probably say 100% they can deal with seasons etc. However, in my house, I have a husband, 20 year old son and 17 year old daughter. All love the dogs to bits BUT I wouldn't trust them 100% to shut the gate etc or to spot symptoms of pyo if I wasn't there - I probably wouldn't know either :(

Daisy

There's another task for the holidays, Daisy - training your family!
:)

If only :) Hubby still can't remember the difference between 'down' and 'off' - I think that he is worse than the children. He does far less walking than me - but is the only person to have been pulled over (twice !!!) and had his finger dislocated by Tara :D :D

Daisy

:) In my house I have 2 children, a partner, 2/3 horses and various small furries... if I were to choose not to have my bitch spayed or my male castrated, then she would either go back to the breeder for the period of her season, or the male would go into kennels :) there are ways around eveything.

My breeder is in Liverpool (other side of the country from me :( ) and I would not want my older dog put in kennels for 3 weeks twice a year ( he is a rescue anyway ) - what is the point of having a dog and then putting it in kennels for that length of time - surely worse for the dog than having it neutered ?? :)

Daisy

My point is that some people can manage better than others, I'm not criticising people who choose to have dogs spayed or castrated - just saying that its not the automatic choice for me because I can manage. Both my breeders are not miles away, and in the past my dog has gone into the kennels for the last 2 weeks - no more than the average - and seeing as I know the people who run the kennels very well then its not a problem. I just don't believe in routine spaying I'm afraid - if it suits you, then far play, but there are some people who can cope without doing it :)

There are people (I'm not one of them!) who have to put their dogs in kennels for longer than that when they go away on holiday or business, etc. If it is part of a dog's routine it is no big deal.
:)

:)

Daisy

I'm new to dog ownership and having to make a decision re. spaying. Could someone tell me the signs to look out for regarding pyometra?

Hiya Cheryl.
Pyometra is an infection of the uterus which usually occurs 2 to 4 weeks after a heat cycle.
Pets may exhibit a variety of symptoms, the most common being lethargy, loss of appetite and increased water intake and urination. If the cervix is open, there may be a heavy purulent (pus) vaginal discharge.

And tragically, even those who can guarantee there will be no unplanned matings, and are fully aware of pyo and its symptoms, can still miss it :-(

Yes, and you can't guarantee you are not going to get run over by a bus either! You have to weigh up risks in everything you do, and then make a decision based on those risks....and its a personal choice. :)

H Chloe,
I can't guarantee my dogs aren't going to be run over by a bus either, but I minimise the chances by never letting them out unsupervised. Neither can I guarantee they aren't going to succomb to illness, but I minimise (to some degree) the chance by neutering :)
Prevention, is better than cure...in my opinion :)

Hi Honey,
I agree prevention is better than cure - which is why we vaccinate our dogs, and ourselves too, of course! The question always is - how far does one take it?

For example, in the 50s and 60s it was very common for children to have their tonsils removed to prevent them getting tonsillitis. Now that 'pre-emptive' surgery has been debunked as unnecessary. As you know, untreated appendicitis is a killer in people. Should we all have an appendectomy to prevent the possibility - after all, none of actually seem to need our appendix anyway! Perhaps major abdominal surgery should be compulsory for all.

Not trying to stir things up or annoy, simply putting forward a comparison.
:)

I think what we need is a middle ground of understanding and realising that individual situations require individual decisions. I originally come from North America where the pro spay/neuter thing is what every 'responsible' owner does. I moved over here and was shocked to find that when someone wanted to neuter their dog they were considered IRRESPONSIBLE for wanting to do it! YIKES!! I have listened to the discussion for about 5 years now and I sit very much in the middle. I am less inclined to think that every dog/bitch should be neutered if not bred from, but I am not inclined to think in any way that if someone does choose to do so that it makes them a bad or uncaring owner or that they think of their dogs as 'just animals' rather than a part of their family.

I have read responses about this on this board for at least 3 years, and it saddens me to see that when someone asks the question they are told that if they were responsible they wouldn't need to spay/neuter - which implies that BAD dog owners are the ones who do.

Jeanjeanie - in your situation having lost a beloved dog to a spay operation - I TOTALLY see where you are coming from. Other's having lost theirs to pyometra I definitely see where they are coming from. There are two trains of thought in this and I wonder sometimes if we come across too harshly on our own side instead of presenting it in a way that people can go away and think about what is responsible in THEIR PERSONAL situation.

I have a rescue bitch that is spayed - she came to me that way, but I would have done it myself anyway. I have a show bitch that is not spayed as those are the rules. When we stop showing I will have to decide what to do, in the meantime I watch her like a hawk after her seasons because I am terrified of pyo. I've never had any experience with it because we always spayed our bitches back home. Mom and dad bred dachsies and after their last litter (usually only one or two litters - and we only ever had one we would breed from at a time - so over 10 years we had 4 litters) they were spayed. If we chose not to breed from them they were spayed. Never had a problem at all with 6 or 7 bitches being spayed in the last 36 years. They did hold off on one of our bitches as she was very tiny and they were worried about the effect of the operation, but when she required surgery for something else they had it done at the same time and she was fine.

I appreciate the discussions we've had on this board because it helps me to understand the different view over here, and as I said, it has swayed me more to the middle and less 'pro' than I had been.

Anyway, just my 2p. I'm not suggesting anyone change their views, just suggesting perhaps that we be a little better/more understanding in presenting them.

Wendy

Hi Wendy,
Good post! I agree that there is no one right or wrong way to this. People must make up their own minds what they do with their animals - and to do this they must have all the facts - both the advantages and disadvantages of the operations.

So many people claim that neutering will solve every behavioural problem under the sun - when that is clearly pie in the sky! But once the operation is done, and the original problem isn't cured, and others may have been caused, there is no going back and undoing it. So as I say - present all the facts, and then let people decide for themselves.

Those who claim that "all responsible people neuter their pets" deeply insult those who are capable of having entire animals and yet not have unwanted litters! The inference is that, if you neuter your pet, you can let it wander where it likes and it doesn't matter - I'm sure that isn't what is meant, but that is the message that is put across.

On a personal note, if you want to have your show bitch spayed, go ahead. Provided you inform the KC that the operation has been performed before you show her, there's no problem.

Hope this helps.
:)

Hi:-D

As much as I 'was' a believer in 'you should neuter your pet' I never believed it solved all problems - wasn't quite that blind LOL. And yes, I agree that there are LOTS of responsible people who don't and that is fantastic. I think the difference of the North American perspective is a HUGE overpopulation problem - some people really do just let their dogs roam and get any bitch in the area pregnant etc. We don't tend to have that problem over here thank goodness! Savannah has had 2 seasons and I've yet to see a dog anywhere near the house looking for her - back home I'd have had 2 or 3 sitting in the front garden - no word of a lie!

I'm okay with not spaying her - we're getting along fine, I'm just a bit paranoid, but better paranoid than to miss any sign of something wrong:) Besides - I just bought a bunch of funky whippet panties from a friend in the US - if I spayed her she'd have no chance to show them off LOL;-) but thanks for the suggestion.

It is a topic many people feel strongly about and I am totally in agreement with dicussing al the issues. That's one reason why a board like this is so great - you can hear many views and come to your own conclusions.

Wendy

She'll be turning a few heads in her sexy underwear!! ;)
:D

Just to get back to my original point :)
Many breeders do seem very dissmissive of the risk posed to a bitch from pyometra. I wonder if this attitude is reflected when they sell their puppies? I found that when I was looking for a Chihuahua bitch, many breeders were less than impressed when I told them my current Chihuahua was spayed. Couldn't really understand why I had gone ahead and spayed her when there wasn't a dog in the house!
It got to the point than when I made enquiries, I stopped mentioning the fact!! I just kept my mouth shut!

Hi Honey,
I know I'm very lucky in that respect, but I've never personally known a bitch who had pyometra - in fact I've never actually met anyone whose bitch has had it - only those on this Forum, and people on TV programmes. I know it is a risk, but.....
:)

I have not heard of Pyometra but perhaps some one would like to tell everyone what it is and the symptons are. I own a 2 bitches one of 6 (considering spaying) and the other 18 weeks. I would like to spay for health issues such as this but on the other hand she has hip probs and would not like her to gain the extra weight and have more stress on her hips.
What does everyone else think

She won't necessarily gain weight. Mine never have. But some do.
The signs to look out for are posted above.

Wendy,

I see more dogs roaming in my neighborhood here in Surrey the UK they I ever did when I lived in the U.S. of A.

Not trying to prove anything, but just to say there is no difference in that regard.

Stacey

Hi!! Gosh - just so you know I'm not talking about things I don't know - I can say that in the 8 years I've lived over here I've never seen dogs roaming and I've lived in both Scotland and England. But when I lived in Canada and the States (grew up in Canada) there were always dogs just hanging about.

When Savvy has had her seasons I have NEVER had a loose dog in the area. When back home in Canada we would have half a dozen sitting out on our front lawn.

Wendy

It sounds pretty simple to me,if you are not going to breed then gets your males/females neutered,i went thru 2 heat cycles with my girl and boy what a drama it was,not for me,but for her!! she was restless the whole time and obviously uncomfortable! constantly looking out the window and pacing by the front door,i felt so BAD for her:( Since getting her spayed she has been a much happier and contented dog,she doesnt have to worry about all those sex hormones confusing and more or less torturing her,we all know when they are in season there is only 1 thing on their mind!!!As for un-neutered males their hormones rule their lives,believe me i see plenty on our daily walks,is'nt it better to take these urges away so our beloved pets can lead a more contented,relaxed life.Neutering and spaying our pets is the most responsible and caring thing we can do for them,and there is absolutely no excuse for keeping them intact for "OUR" benefit.i think it's cruel to keep an intact PET,it is very arkaic.i can forgive my parents and grandparents for not being educated enough back then but there is no excuse these days.
Please,Please,Please put your pets needs ahead of your own.

Christine

Hi Christine,
Not all dogs and bitches are highly sexed - just like not all men are rapists! When I have had unspayed bitches they weren't trying to get out to males (even the brood bitches!) and my entire dogs don't go off wandering in search of bitches (even my stud dog!)
It is not at all unkind (in my view) to keep them entire, and it isn't very difficult to keep them secure - after all, no responsible person lets their dog out unattended anyway!
:)

Don't forget that castration doesn't necessarily remove those "urges" in a dog, Christine! A castrated dog is often still willing and capable of mating and tying with a bitch.
:)

My last two Golden Retrievers had pyometra ops the second almost died and she could never walk very far afterwards. We've now got a 10 month old who will be spayed as soon as possible.She has had her first season any thoughts on the best time to get this done.Are Goldens more susceptible to this condition than other breeds

Best time to spay her is from about 3 months after the start of her season.

Hi, my first posting after I logged in looking up info on Pyo. My Bichon Frise of 5 years old was a bit low last Tuesday with no energy, panting and drinking a lot of water. I took her to the vet on Wednesday who said she had a high temperature, gave her an antibiotic injection and an anti-inflammatory injection. Cassie still wasn't right the next day, although a little brighter so I took her back at lunchtime. I emphasised about the amount of water she had been drinking and the vet said it could possibly be a pyo. No swelling, no pus or other clues, just on the symptoms of listlessness, last being in season four weeks ago and raised temperature, excessive drinking. She was kept in for an x-ray, blood tests etc and it showed that liver, kidneys were OK not conclusive about a pyo but they wanted to spay her the next day anyway.

I had been 'considering' breeding from her, good pedigree etc but didn't get around to it and didn't have her spayed either. Wish I had now. She had the operation today (full hysterectomy) and it went well so far but she has to stay in on a drip for the weekend, kids are really upset. It was confirmed that she had an early pyometra so we were lucky. I have read today about an alternative therapy of prostoglandin to help expel the pus through muscle contractions along with a strong course of antibiotics which I suppose is an option if you desperately want to avoid losing the chance to breed. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed she is OK. Ali

The only case of pyometra I have experienced was in a 10 month bitch after her first ( quite late for a Westie) season. I rang a local vet ( I have an agreement with my regular vet that I can go to go to a nearer vet in an emergency as he is 40 mins away) and explained the symptoms - off food, drinking and peeing lots, very lethargic, looking concernedly round at her tummy and occasional tremors of the head ( ataxia). She had been fine up until mid afternoon and I went out for about 5 hours and came home to a very sick dog. I said to this vet who did not really know me,that I thought she had pyo and wanted to bring her in straight away. They told me to wait til morning and see how she was. I insisted they see her as I was certain it was pyo, but they refused and were very patronising. So in a panic I rang my regular vet who said "put her in the car now I'll meet you at the surgery". He didn't even scan or x ray - he was so sure it was advanced closed pyo he prepped her and she was open in less than 10 minutes. He said if she had been left til morning she would have probably died in the night. This is just a warning to others, that if your bitch shows these symptoms - not to wait til morning - find a vet - any vet that will see her immediately.

yup i kinda lost a bitch due to spaying few more tech things went of in the op but . its a big op and its easy to loose a bitch because of it.
My vet told me after either spay very early or let the bitch have a litter of puppies and leave her un spayed ,
this time round we chose that my new ones going to have a litter,
tricky subject im sure everyone will have there own thoughts on this one.

You've got a very strange vet, Lady! Having a litter won't stop her getting pyo in the future! What are you going to do - have a litter every season? :rolleyes: