Hi,

My GSP is 14 weeks old and is starting to get the grasp pf basic commands, so I purchased Training Discs to aid his training.

I tried out the "introduction" to the discs and it seemed to work in that, he would lie and stare at the titbits if I chinked the discs, but not approach. However, as I moved out of his sight, he went for the titbit whether I chinked or not!!

I tried to use them in the 'recall' but he seemed to ignore them and continued playing (disobediently!)

He then refuses to come back and starts running around like a maniac in circles until I entice him back with a treat.

My question is, have I introduced them too young? What is the ideal age and stage of training to introduce them?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Never used training discs in this way, I use a clicker, which can be used as soon as a dog is weaned. Can someone explain their use as a trainer, I have only used them to diswade a dog from doing something.

IIRC training discs designed by John Fisher were never designed to train a dog to do something, but to stop them doing something - far better results come from positive training methods like clicker training.........

That was what I thought Digger, but one never knows if someone had taken John Fishers discs and designed some way of using them to train, but I was at a loss to understand how.

Would suggest that you take the GSP and yourself to someone who can show you how to use a clicker, you can't start that too early and if you make a mistake you go back and put it right. You will be suprised how quick it works and it is good fun for you and the dog.

Digger is right,
I have used these training discs to prevent behaviour which I don't want and only when positive methods haven't worked (click/treat/praise). If not reinforced by positive methods they won't work and they also won't work if used for too many different behaviours at the same time. Personally, I would not use them on such a young puppy.

The absolute best way of getting your dog to listen to you when off the lead is positive training. A clicker is ideal for this but the timing of clicking is crucial to sucess.

To produce a solid recall, I left my bedlington puppy playing in the garden and while I worked in the kitchen called him every couple of minutes at first. He would come flying in :) and get a tasty treat and some fussing, then run back out again to play. The length of time varied and so did the treats, he never knew what treat it would be next (all high value - cheese, sausage, bacon, cooked meat, dried liver etc.) The treats were tiny, pinky fingernail sized and the food ration for the day was reduced by a similar amount.
As far as he was concerned this was the best game ever :D and he learned fast! I still do it now occasionally just to keep him interested :D and because its fun :) I didn't let him off lead until I was pretty sure that the recall was going to work and he now has a very strong recall.

Hope this help some
Regards
Dill

Thanks Dill, that seems sound advice.

Digger, perhaps my choice of terminology wasn't in keeping with experienced dog owners/trainers etc, but when I referred to training my pup by use of training discs, I meant training him to come back to me, walk to heel, sit stay etc. Are the the discs not training aids in this context??? I assumed that John Fisher developed the "Training discs" to help you train your dog....am I mistaken?

Admittedly, some uses can be that of aversion therapy, but surely training is training, and we are splitting hairs?

And can someone tell how a clicker is utilised please?

John Fisher did develop 'Training Discs' as a training aid for general obedience excercises according to one of his colleagues who I worked with last year, but before his death rethought the whole thing and reverted to simply using them for behavioural problems. The book which came with my set speaks about him in the present text and was clearly published before his death, and therefore has not been updated.

Clicker training was developed by dolphin and whale trainers in America to train their charges to accept veterinary and other behaviours - it has been sucessfully transfered to dogs, cats, horses and even children!!!!!!! This is Karen Pryors page on the subject http://www.clickertraining.com/home/ Karen is one of the best known exponents of clicker training.

Talizman, I have never known the discs to be used to train a dog to "do" something - rather the opposite - they are generally used to break bad habits, and train a dog not to do something it has learnt (or has been taught by its owner by mistake!)

BTW I believe your dog has learnt that running around in circles is what you want as you are reinforcing that part of the behaviour with the tit bit. :( The running around in circles is a typical 'displacement' behaviour of a dog who doesn't understand what is required of it (some will sit and scratch, some will bark, others will play bow etc.......) A dog has no concept of 'disobedience' it only knows that some of it's actions bring rewards, and other's don't........

Hi,
There's a very informative web site about clicker training, it will guide you though the history, basics and has a FAQ area
http://www.clickertraining.com/home/index.htm my apologies for it being american but its pretty comprehensive. Clickers can be bought from pet suppliers in this country.
It is a remarkable way of training a dog, I even clicker trained the mastiff dog next door - over the fence! He was completely untrained and we couldn't go outside without him going mental at us :( now he listens to me and I don't have to raise my voice to him (unlike his owner. He must think the dogs' stone deaf!!) :D :D

Hope this helps
Regards
Dill

Thanks for the info guys, and thats a cool story Dill! :)

I think clickers and training discs are all too unnatural, try training your dog by understanding it, by thinking like a dog. There is a fabulous book by a woman called Jan Fennell who has 20 years experience of training dogs, including crufts champions. Her training is revolutionary, I have used it on my own dogs and the results are amazing. Her training is based on her observations of wolves and she encourages you to train the dog to make the right choices, to choose to do the right thing, rather than responding to clicks or noises. Her web site is www.janfennellthedoglistener.co.uk :)

Pleased you found the method you used worked for you, but please do not condem methods you obviously know nothing about. In clicker training the dog does not respond to a click, he responds to you. There are lots of ways to train dogs and I have tried most, but have found that the clicker is the quickest and the easiest I have ever used, once you get it right, the speed of the training is unbelievable. But I have no doubt that others will prefer other methods and that is up to them, and I am not about to rubbish their methods.

If he responds to you why the need for the click, you seem to be contradicting yourself?? I also wasn't aware I was rubbishing anyones method, I was simply giving an opinion, I was under the impression that's what this site is about, maybe I was wrong. If you have tried every method of training and the clicker worked best for you then all well and good, but that doesn't mean it is best for everyone.

As I said you haven't a clue about clicker training, so don't knock it. I also said each to their own. None of my business what method anyone uses unless they ask my opinion and I did not ask yours.

CLicker training done correctly speeds up the learning process and actually teaches the dog to think for itself, rather than being pushed or pulled into position by the owner/handler. This in itself leads to a far greater rapport between dog and owner. However, it's also easy to get wrong and really needs practise from the trainer to get right, this is where many people have problems.

Why the need for the 'click'? - The click is a short 'sharp' noise which indicates to the dog that what he's doing at that moment is going to get him a reward - it may be food, it may be a game with the trainer, or it may simply be fuss - it depends on the dog............

If youre interested in looking into clicker training or training discs, Jean Donaldson's book "The Culture Clash" gives great insight into where the method came from, science blending with tradition and practical experience, and why it works. Karen Pryor's book on Clicker Training is great if you want to try out the method. I think that dogs are a lot like humans, that what will work for one, may not worth for another - being open minded and willing to try new methods is only going to increase your chances of successful training.

#If Ms Fennel really based her techniques on observing wolves, she wasn't observing the 'right sort' of Wolves - after all, dogs are not wolves, just as Hippos are not horses (although they are related.........)

I get the feeling people are upset with Jan Fennell? Could it be because contrary to what you say she is actually very successful at what she does? Dogs are related to wolves, I've never met one related to a clicker though???

Hi Collette,
No, I've never met a dog related to a clicker, but I've never met a dog related to a trainer, either!! ;)

Jan Fennell has done a lot of good work, opening some people's eyes to the fact that dogs are not small furry humans, but an entirely different species with a different language (both vocal and physical) and social structure to ours. However, it is simplistic to liken domestic dog behaviour to that of wild wolves. Again, they are a different species, and not every aspect of wolf hierarchy is applicable to dogs.

No Frank……….., we are upset with you, dismissing other training methods that you obviously have no idea about. How can you possible assess a training method when you are in such ignorance? If you are only interested in trying one way that is up to you, but do not condemn other ways when you have no way of knowing what it is you are talking about.

Okay, you are clearly all upset with me, point taken. In all seriousness if you had to recommend a method of training what would it be, would it be clicker training or something else? Maybe you can help me with this problem, how would you deal with a situation where you have two mainly well behaved happy dogs who become really defensive and aggresive when they are being walked and see another dog? They are (90%) of the time not like this when they are off the lead (on the odd occassion they are) but are always like this when on the lead. Obviously there are times when they must be kept on the lead so the problem needs to be resolved. I have been trying to apply Jan Fennells method but I am not pig headed and the fact that you all have such a problem with it tells me that maybe there is a better way of doing it? Any advice??

Do you always walk them together? What is their behaviour like when you walk them separately? One of my dogs used to occasionally react, not badly as such but not how I wanted, to other dogs, especially if they barked at him. I seem to have cured this (fingers crossed!!) by getting him to "sit" and "look at me" if I saw him stiffening when he saw another dog. We then wait until the other dog goes away. He is now 99% better.
:)

I do walk them together mainly because they do everything together and fret if they are apart. On the rare occassion when I have walked them on their own they are completely different, it is obviously some sort of pack instinct which is making them defensive. I've been trying to distract them when another dog passes but it's very difficult, they are very head strong and just ignore me! They can also get very over excited if a child runs past which concerns me.

How old are they? I have two litter brothers, who used to be dreadful when together, but much better when walked separately. They were more strongly bonded to each other than to any of us. (It was one of these who was fearful of other dogs. When taken out on his own, he learned to look to me for security rather than his brother.). Now they are nearly 4 years old, and are much, much better, but this only came about through giving them a lot more one-to-one attention, and less time spent together to reduce their bond.

I have a small cross breed who is the size of a jack russell but he's brown all over and looks like a tiny alsatian, he's 3, and a shih tzu who is just 2. What you're saying is really interesting, their bond has been so strong since the day I got Frankie (the Shih Tzu) and he certainly looks to Eddie for security. Although Frankie is very headstrong in the house he is quite nervous when we are out, he tends to start the barking and then Eddie joins in, I suppose trying to protect Frankie. I will definitely give walking them seperately a go, I think what you're saying could well be right, they may start to look to me for security rather than to each other. Is the idea that eventually they can be walked together again?

Yes, I can now take all my lot out together again, as they've twigged that I can protect them, not the other way about.
:)

Thanks Jan, this is really helpful, I'll try it straight away :)

Another technique you can try (you choose which suits you best) is to train your dog (using a food treat as a lure - don't have to click if you don't want to :)) to take up a position behind you when a strange dog approaches. All you are doing is asking the dog to perform a behaviour which makes it impossible to carry out the behaviour he *wants* to do, without encouraging him to find another coping stratagy......

Succesful at what she does? Selling books you mean? She's certainly that - but many members of the APDT have had to deal with dogs to whom she's applied her blanket methods to, and had to clear up the mess and confusion that's been left - because a salesman whose on commission tells you a certain device is very good at what it does do you believe him?

Revolutionary? Jan Fennell? What about what she proposes is revolutionary? It is pack leadership repackaged - don't give them attention, things on your terms, eat first, lead not follow etc. Dozens of trainers before her have suggested these things - all she has done is produce an "easy to use" package of them - and that is the problem with it IMHO it ignores the fact that dogs are all different and need different approaches. I know dogs that have been perfectly well adjusted where the owner has read Jan Fennell's book, decided they ought to follow her routine and the dog has ended up withdrawn and distressed - once they stopped doing it the relationship they had with their dog was restored. I'm sure it works for some dogs but certainly not all.

I have my doubts about the premises behind this approach though - even if you accept the dog as wolf idea some of the concepts are questionable. I don't see these behaviours between my own "pack" of dogs when dealing with each other. For instance my alpha female often responds to the lower ranking dogs initiating play if she feels like it - if she doesn't she grumbles at them and they leave her alone - but she rarely ignores them. When I open a door for them all she lets them go ahead of her - they have more energy than she has - same on walks - clearly she hasn't read the right books and doesn't realise she has to go through the door first to prove she is alpha! But she can stop the others in their tracks with a look if she chooses. They won't push things with her and respect her completely - she calls the shots when it matters. But she is not a bully, she doesn't "dominate", she plays with the others, and they adore her. So I suspect pack dynamics is a lot more complex than these "4 steps to a perfect dog" approaches would have us believe.

If you really want a revolutionary approach to working with dogs have a look at Suzanne Clothier's "Bones would Rain from the Sky" or Turid Rigaas "Calming Signals". These two listen to each individual dog and are interested in communication not in simply enforcing rules.

Janet

Are these books a study of dog behaviour or do they also give training advice? Which one is your favourite? Let me know and I'll buy it. Thanks :)

Neither are training books in the sense of giving step by step training instructions but they help you to see the world from the dog's perspective and interpret their body language and their behaviour. That allows you to work out how to deal with it. Turid Rigaas' book is very short (only about 40 pages) but is about the ways in which dogs avoid conflict and communicate with each other. Suzanne Clothier's book (full title is "If a dog's prayers were answered ... Bones would rain from the sky" - apparently a Turkish proverb!) is - in spite of the rather weird title - one of the best books I have read on dogs - she focuses on the relationship between owner and dog - and not on theories of animal behaviour. It is also a lovely book to read. If you want something more focused on training procedure - someone mentioned Culture Clash - excellent book. Or John Fisher's Dogwise.

I'd agree with the others who have suggested walking them separately. It makes a big difference because it allows you to give your full attention to each dog and stops them leaning on each other. It will also probably make you more relaxed - and that will go down the lead to the dog. I would also try to work out each dog's "safe distance" with other dogs - the point at which they will not kick into the barking routine - and start there. Training them to sit and wait while dogs go past at that distance - then gradually move closer - if you can - of course not always possible. I have a dog (much bigger than either of yours!) who is nervous of people and tends to bark at them out of fear - rather alarming as she is bigger than a GSD! We taught her to sit and wait while people go past and as long as they do not try to approach her (sometimes tricky as she is big, white, and fluffy!) she is OK now. We started by getting her to sit some way away and watch people go past - making sure she was far enough away to be comfortable enough to wait on a loose lead - a tight lead just increases tension. Gradually we reduced the distance - now she is OK on the edge of a path unless she is startled by them. It takes patience and time (we are still working with her!) but it does work - individual attention, working within their comfort zone, avoiding tricky situations if you can until you are fairly confident they won't blow it. Each time they have a barking at other dogs episode it reinforces that behaviour - especially if the dogs go away. So you need to be thinking ahead - watching for other dogs - and avoiding situations if you can - not to avoid the issue but to give you time to develop alternative behaviours with them. One thing I do believe in is avoiding conflict if at all possible!

Good luck
Janet

Just to get back to the clicker debate for a second, I'm in the process of training my dogs to do an instant down to a whistle. It was proving tricky, they're not used to obeying noises, and were watching me intensly for hand signals. I realised that they were responding to me touching the whistle, not the noise.
I was doing all this without my clicker because it was in the car.
The next day, I got the clicker from the car and they were doing it reliably within 5 minutes. The clicker marks the exact behaviour they have offered which earned the reward. They suddenly seemed to realise 'oh it's THAT!' and I've just been doing quick 'revision' sessions today before I start working on it at a distance. (their distance down is good, but I don't like shouting if they are far away, everyone looks at me!)

Just want to add my opinions about Jan Fennel too! I think a lot of the time people who use her methods get results because it's calm and consistent, not because of doors or gesture eating or anything else. The lack of shouting and swearing can have a profound effect on a dog! We should be calm with our dogs anyway, not just as part of a pack dynamic thing.
I agree that she's very good at what she does, I just think what she does is marketing and sales. I saw her talking at Crufts, and honestly she was no different from the people selling the rubber brooms. Only difference is, I use my rubber broom every day, it's fantastic!

Jo

Just a thought on the lead behaviour of your dogs. Sometimes dogs can be fine off lead and aggressive on lead and this is just down to the fact that when theyre off lead, if another dog approaches them and they get scared, they are still free to use the "fight or flight" instinct. When on the lead, they can no longer flee if a situation is scary and so, in their eyes, are forced to defend themselves - just the fact that they know they cant run away can be enough to provoke aggression where there would normally be none. Im not entirely sure how you would get around this but an extending lead would be a good compromise and might get the dog used to the idea that being on the lead does not necessarily mean that they are trapped.

Jackie H has went awfully quiet....

Can someone check to see if she has fallen off of her soap-box? ;)

Hi Talizman, no I am still here, sorry if I appeared to be on a soapbox, I just find it hard to accept someone slating something, when you can see by what they say, that they know nothing about the thing they are slating.

I have not posted since because I am do not feel qualified to offer help on the subject now being discussed. Is that OK with you? ;)

Frankloveseddie

As someone who has been interested in dog psychology/behaviour/training etc for some years I have built up quite a library of books on the subject including Jan Fennells (both of them). John Fishers (4), John Rogerson (2), etc etc . I have to agree with digger that JF's offer a very limited view of handling dogs and can have an adverse effect.

One of Karen Prior's books has already been mentioned but there is another one of hers which explains how and why the clicker works as well as how to use it. That book is called 'Don't shoot the dog'. She first used clicker training in her work with dolphins and as she points out, if the dolphin doesn't want to jump you can hardly give it a yank on the lead to make it comply! Clicker training works, it works fast and the dogs I've used it on have remained eager to learn - its a fun method for them, therefore you retain a good relationship with your dog. Other methods can and do work but often at a price most of us would not want to pay in terms of lost trust from our dogs. Roy Hunter has written a couple of good training books and of course, as already mentioned, there is Dogwise by John Fisher.

I have also read 'Bones would rain from the sky' by Suzanne Clothier. Just as there has been a change in training attitudes and methods since Barbara Woodhouse to Karen Prior then Suzanne Clothier is the enlightened equivalent in the behaviourist field. She offers a very different slant on why dogs do what they do. She is not afraid to treat dogs as if they are our best friends. After all, if we were trying to teach our friend how to put links on these pages and they didn't understand would we revert to rapping their knuckles with rulers or find another way of explaining!! Her book is stunning.

what are training discs?!

Hi Winky

Training discs consists of 5 small brass circles (a bit like those that are fixed on the edges of tambourines!) fastened together with cord.

They are used to teach dogs what not to do. They are known as aversion therapy because they make a sound that distracts the dog from what it is doing or thinking of doing. When you introduce them to your dog you 'chink' them in your hand before throwing them to the ground near but not at your dog!. Once the dog is deterred you can get his attention back on you and put in a more constructive/acceptable behaviour. You then can move on to just chinking the discs when you suspect the dog is going to misbehave and add 'a leave' command or 'no' or whatever is suitable for the situation. Once used to the 'chink' and the verbal command paired together you can then drop off the 'chink' and just use your command.

The discs are a kinder way of stopping your dog from doing something you don't want as there is no need to jerk/yank/pop leads or collars, shout/bellow negative reprimands etc. It is a totally hands-off approach and works well with most but not all dogs. Some dogs temperaments are such that they are very nervous of any sound so I wouldn't advise use of the discs with them and some dogs are not deterred at all by the discs. However, if you are going to have a success with the discs you will know very quickly as a positive response to them happens in a matter of minutes.

I have been using discs in initiial training and modifying problem behaviour for some time now and read several books which refers to their use. I have never come across their use in training for something you do want your dog to do - for that I would use a clicker or positive reinforcement.

Elaine

oh wow! thankyou for explaining! You helped a lot! THANKYOU!

That is not how I was instructed to use them Elaine, I suppose you could but then you may as well clap your hands or shout Oy! to get attention. My understanding is that you go through a conditioning process first which teaches the dog to associate the discs with 'no reward' this is done by placing tipbits on the floor and allowing the dog to take them except when the discs are thrown when you pick up the tipbit instead. After a few sessions of this the dog is then conditioned to stop what it is doing when he hears the disc as he is simply thinks 'there will be no reward in my action here'. Not an expert on this, in fact I failed at the first hurdle I think because my dog is used to being given her tipbits on the floor and wait for a command to take them, so whenever I picked them up instead she was happy to wait for the next time :) but that was the instructions I received with my discs.

But Isabel, if you clap your hands, or shout Oy, the dog is going to associate the behaviour with you - and that is not the point.

Good point, but as I say, the instructions that came with mine indicated they are more than an attention getting devise and that a programme of conditioning is required, you don't just start chucking them about :) Not saying they are good or bad because as I say the conditioning didn't work out with my dog, if I had thought about it I may have devised another means of conditioning her to them but in the end I found another way of solving the problem we were having with her at the time.

Hi Isabel

The introcdtion with food is not to form an association with 'no reward'. What you do with food is to offer the dog a titbit and tell it to 'take it' which hopefully the dog does (not many won't!) you then put a titbit on the floor and say nothing to the dog. If the dog approaches the food you 'chink' and throw the discs between the dog and the food. You then remove both the food and the discs and repeat the whol procedure. After only 3 or 4 repeats, if the dog is going to respond to the method, it will either not approach the food on the floor or will go and lie down elsewhere. What you are teaching at this introduction is 'you can take the food which I offer you and say you can have but you don't take/touch/eat anything that you've not been given'. The discs are an aversion to make the dog understand 'you don't do' not that there is 'no reward'. It is a form of negative reinforcement but without pain/punishment or discomfort to the dog.

My set came with a booklet which explains how to introduce and use the discs. They can be used to deter dogs that bolt through doors after introduction by opening the door, (dog on lead) and if the dog makes a dash for the door 'chink' then throw the discs and shut the door. The chink acts as a warning to remind the dog that if he attempts to do what he is not supposed to then the discs will be thrown (never at the dog!).

For a full explanation of the concept you would need to read John Fisher's books either "Why Does My Dog?' or "Think Dog'. I think he explains in both books. John Fisher was, of course, the person who invented the concept and designed and marketed the product. He has since died but the product is still marketed as to his original design.

Hope this helps! There are other ways to introduce but then we would be here forever and I never intended to give a FULL explanation of introduction and use - just to answer Winky's query of what are they and what for!!

Elaine

Wow Elaine - that's very different to the way John Fisher taught my colleague to use them - it's stressed that the dog should make NO association between the owner/handler and the discs and that the dog should return to the handler for reassurance.......... Perhaps it's easier to describe the discs as an equivilent of the clicker - when the clicker indicates reward - the discs indicate no reward....

Hi Digger

I have just checked my John Fisher book 'Why Does My Dog' and he very clearly refers to discs as a 'sound aversion therapy' (Appendix Pages 218 - 220 gives full blow by blow account). He describes in detail how he introduces them to dogs, it is the way I described using food above. Remember, I said in my original post that I have used them on others dogs as part of a behaviour modification program so on introduction the dogs will not associate the owner with the discs as I am not the owner!!

John Fisher very cleary states that he speaks to the dog (only to give instruction when he offers the food!) and in the booklet that came with mine, I still have it, and *it* clearly says that the owner *does* give commands when using the discs to deter unwanted behaviour!

Somewhere along the line we must be at crossed purposes and everything is subject to interpretation. But, as said in my original reply to Winky on description of discs and what they are used for, I have used them as per John Fisher as an aversion therapy ie what *not* to do and had good results when undoing/preventing unwanted behaviour.

Whay more can I say?

I am editing this as I have now had chance to re-read the booklet that came with my discs in full. It also states that once introduced the owner can use the discs in several other areas to deter unwanted behaviours.
It also states that the discs are used as a means of 'negative reinforcement' ie if it is unpleasant for the dog it is unlikely to repeat whereas a positive reinforcement means a pleasant pay-off for the dog which makes it likely to repeat the behaviour. Nowhere in any of the literature that I have does it say the discs mean 'no reward'. The only thing I can think of is that maybe John's original concept has got corrupted to mean the behaviour which is interupted by the discs is 'not rewarding' for the dog, therefore, it does not repeat it. It does not necessarily mean that there is 'no reward'.

Has anyone else got any ideas on this?

As I said I'm certainly no expert at this, the 'no reward' bit was just my attempt at discribing what was going on, although I'm not sure what the difference is to 'you don't do' :) the only point I wanted to make really was that my understanding of their use was not simply to make a noise to deter in itself (such as the use of a tin of stones) which I felt your first discription, before edit, seemed to suggest.

I have seen the discs used (and have some myself, although have not had to use them) and my understanding of the discs is that the dog is conditioned to them in such a way that the sound they make is associated in the dog's brain with a "no reward" signal :) ie not a " no reward" as in, you dont get the biccies, but a "no reward" in the sense of "the action you are about to take will bring you no benefit and will in fact result in failure".

I have seen the dog conditioned both with the food method and the shutting the door method.

Some people dont condition the dog at all, and just chuck the discs which may deter the dog but is not the way they were meant to be used.

When i purchased my set, i did have a Mikki training leaflet with them which suggested all sorts - teaching basic commands, by using the discs. But I don't see the point when the discs are in some ways rather negative. I would n't use them this way myself anyway ...

Lindsay :)

Yes thats what I meant Lindsay, not as good as you at describing this training stuff :) the shutting door method sounds interesting I think I might try that if I ever think I need to use them.