As I'm sure you're all aware by now we're getting a Toller bitch in a few months and we're currently discussing breeding from her. We are planning on doing some gun work with our girl and showing her. If she proves successful at either of these and she's a 'perfect' example of the breed, according to the KC Standards, and her breeder agrees we'd be very interested in breeding from her.

I'm very concerned that this wouldn't be enough and that we may end up breeding for the wrong reasons.

I'd really love to hear peoples opinions on breeding and what we need to ask ourselves to ensure we're breeding for the right reasons.

TIA,

Fiona

The best person to advise you would be the bitches breeder, she knows the lines you bitch is from, and when your dog gets older take her back to the breeder to see if she is good enough to breed from, the breeder will also know where the best studs dogs are, that would be suitable for your bitch, but, if the breeder does not think the bitch is good enough, I would not breed from her.

the breeder you are getting your pup from puts endorsement on breeding,beacuse my friend who got a bitch from the same breeder, the endorsement lifted when she had all the tested done,put she cannot be mated beacuse some problem,she got,so i would ask john about the endorsement first,and wait untill she has the test done and see what they results are first,plus after what happen this week with a friend puppy returned,and riseing a litter its hard work,so just enjoy the pup first has a pet then working and showing is a bonus,no warrant can be give to any dog beening sold for show,working,breeding potenial on reaching maturity.

Hi, I breed for a many reasons:
no1- I just adore having and raising puppies

no2- I feel justified in breeding because I am so interested in the breed and heretibility/genetics, have typical, sound good natured stock and try so hard to improve the stock generation by generation.

No 3-I am home all day, every day and my whole life revolves around my dogs and their needs always come first.

No4 I have the facilities to rear them well, an understanding and helpful family and support from those more experienced than me if I need it. When I started breeding I was, and still am keen to learn as much as possible and hope I never get to the stage where I think I know it all.

No5 I am extrememly fussy who buys my puppies and turn many people down when I feel they may not be suitable owners, long before they ever visit. I may be tempting fate here (!!) but in 15 or so years of breeding I have never had a puppy returned to me, and I am fairly sure that its because I have taken great care to vet the prospective owners very thoroughly. This is the "bottom line" really, that ALL the puppies lead long,well cared for and happy lives in their respective homes.

No 6 The thrill of seeing a puppy from a carefully planned and long awaited mating blossom and do well in the ring cant really be matched

However the "down" side must be accepted before you mate a bitch:
Bitches do die whelping, or soon after from complications - not often but it does happen, and its equally possible to lose the bitch AND the whole litter if you didn't realise that a C section was needed quickly enough and be left heartbroken and with a four figure vet bill to pay.

It is virtually impossible to look after the bitch and puppies properly if you work, even part time IMO. You cant really be out for more than 3 hours at a time for at least couple of months, and then if you keep a puppy you will need to be at home with it while its growing up.

Would you be able to take back a half grown, maybe aggressive or poorly puppy when the one owner that you were a little concerned about sends it back and demands its purchase price, vets fees etc back, when its THEIR fault that the puppy is unmanageable or ill.

If you intend to only breed one litter from her, the equipment you will need to buy, that will then be unused again will come to a fair sum. It is very rare that one make a profit, in fact I think its 4 years since I even broke even, (sshhh-dont tell my hubby!) though my breed does have small litters compared to bigger dogs. I know that you are probably not doing it "for the money" but it is quite possible that even if things go well, you will be out of substantially out of pocket, which surprisises most new breeders as they assume with puppies at several hundred pounds each, that breeding is financially viable. Before breeding you have to accept that things can go wrong, easily born puppies can go down with a dreaded lurgy just days before new owners are coming to collect them. If you have a large litter of poorly puppies, vets bills can be devastatingly expensive to say nothing of the stress, worry and lack of sleep caring for them, and they may not get better.

Saying all this, I and others DO breed, but be sure you can take the rough with the smooth. You may well be lucky and have an easily born, easily raised litter, but dont bank on it! If its really important to you to have one or two of her puppies to show/carry on the line, then fine, but if this is not the case it will be much much cheaper and easier to go back to her breeder and buy a closely related puppy when you want one. Leigh has put together a list of expenses on this site, that breeders face, sorry cant remember what heading its under but its worth a read. Link please Leigh? Although I have been very pessimistic its not my intention to put you off, just warning you of the worst scenario's. I am not one of those people that think I am the only person in the world capable of breeding,rearing and homing a litter well!! Good luck. :-)

Not guilty :-) The list is Sierra's baby: Financial Statement Input Query. You can find the link in this thread.

Leigh

oops sorry Leigh. thanks for the link.

Beautifully put WL. I also think that the returned puppy scenario can be worse with some of the bigger more boisterous breeds. I have had homes that seemed ideal no work out, and tried hard to put off one couple, who live in a flat, but for every what if they had a solution, and they have turned out wonderful owners, in fact now own two. Though their situation is unusual, as their Cul desac backs right onto public woodland, and they have communal Gardens with a Responsible pet ownership code, and are allowed to keep dogs. Housetraining took a lot longer, but they realised and expected this. Also training the dogs to not bark was pro-active!!!

{eople who have large Guarding/Working breeds like Christine, must find it very hard, as when the new owners get it wrong, it can be quite major. If the dog has been allowed or worse encourqaged to be aggressive then you may be faced with the heart break of deciding Euthanasia is the only course. I do realise this canalos occur with smaller breeds, re The posts over the Westies and Cocker.

I have no objection to people wanting to breed, but educating themselves first is vital.

Hi WL.

Thanks for you honest reply. This is exactly the sort of information we're looking for and having followed Lorraines postings we're well aware what can happen when all goes wrong. Having lost a baby to cot death we're very used to heartache and pain - I'm not saying this to get sympathy but to help people understand that we'd never rush into anything that could cause us more pain.

You hear so much about why people shouldn't breed and about 'bad' breeders but it is very difficult to find out why people should breed and what are considered acceptable reasons for breeding.

We've looked at Sierras charts and we know that we could meet the financial commitments of breeding and as I'm at home all day the puppies wouldn't be left alone for long periods of time.

Looking at your reasons for breeding

no1- I just adore having and raising puppies I'm sure that would apply

no2- I feel justified in breeding because I am so interested in the breed and heretibility/genetics, have typical, sound good natured stock and try so hard to improve the stock generation by generation. We are devouring knowledge about his breed like there's no tomorrow and fingers crossed our girl will be as good natured and settled as the rest of Johns stock.

No 3-I am home all day, every day and my whole life revolves around my dogs and their needs always come first. I'm lucky as I don't work and I'm at home all day - with the children at the moment but they're growing up fast.

No4 I have the facilities to rear them well, an understanding and helpful family and support from those more experienced than me if I need it. When I started breeding I was, and still am keen to learn as much as possible and hope I never get to the stage where I think I know it all. This certainly applies. We wouldn't even be considering breeding if this wasn't the case.

No5 I am extrememly fussy who buys my puppies and turn many people down when I feel they may not be suitable owners, long before they ever visit. I may be tempting fate here (!!) but in 15 or so years of breeding I have never had a puppy returned to me, and I am fairly sure that its because I have taken great care to vet the prospective owners very thoroughly. This is the "bottom line" really, that ALL the puppies lead long,well cared for and happy lives in their respective homes. This would definitely apply.

No 6 The thrill of seeing a puppy from a carefully planned and long awaited mating blossom and do well in the ring cant really be matched. We can only imagine the joy this must bring, almost like seeing your own child graduate from university!!

Unfortunately we're still not convinced this is good enough for breeding, we'll have to think some more on this one.

Thanks again,

Fiona

As you can probably tell from my ramblings I'm a bit hung over from last night :D

Something you will not know until your bitch is mature is her nature.
I would never breed form an untrustworthy bitch.

Thanks for your reply Terri. We are aware that John endorses his puppies and that we'd have to have the relevant tests done before he's even consider lifting the endorsement - that's what I meant by 'if the breeder agrees', but I didn't express myself very well :D

Our girl will be a pet first and foremost and the gunwork and showing will follow on when she's old enough if she shows an interest and the talent. Again I'm not putting this very well, but I hope you understand what I mean. We're not buying the bitch because we are definitely planning on breeding but it's something we're very interested in. As breeding isn't something to be rushed into we want to get as much advice on it before we get our girl and all common sense flies out the window.:)

Thanks again for your reply.

Fiona and Chris

Fiona, if you want to take a look at the article I wrote on "Let's Talk Breeding", email me for the link. I, hopefully, covered all the bits to think about.

[edited by SM to remove the URL]

thanks Sierra,

Fiona and Chris

HI Issysmum

I don't know if this is any help, especially as you have your own breeder to talk to anyway, but my friend Sally has just bred a litter of Tollers; she has waited many years before she decided to breed, although she has been involved in the dog world via obedience, showing and agility for a very long time. This was her first ever litter. She also works Sky and is a behaviourist of a very good reputation,and I wonder if she might be a good person for you to chat to? She is very approachable albeit very busy too <g>. I will be seeing her next week so if you want i can ask her if its OK for you to email her?

It was fun when she wanted photos taken and four of us were trying to hold the pups still - wriggle, wriggle, wriggle!!!!

Lindsay

Hi Lindsay,

that would be great, thanks. How are the puppies going? How many did she have?

Fiona

HI Fiona

The pups are doing very well, and have now all gone to their new homes - all except one which she is keeping <g>. Think she had 7 - they were all over the place so hard to keep count LOL :)

I'll be in touch soon about her email details then, when I have checked with her. Her bitch Sky is a lovely dog by the way, I am sure you will be very pleased with your Toller :)

Lindsay

hi, i found this post on a mailing list,
may be of intrest,
kelly

RESPONSIBLE BREEDING - Preparing to breed your female
A step-by-step checklist to help you be prepared for the responsibility of
breeding your female.

Step 1. Study all the materials you can find about the breed. Research the
different lines within the breed. This is the easy part. Now move to Step 2.

Step 2. Attend dog shows and talk to owners. Enter your female and see how she stacks up against others. Meanwhile, go to Step 3.

Step 3. While you study the breed, work in your breeds rescue. If you
don't have the time, money and facilities to provide a foster home to
abandoned dogs, then you don't have the time, the resources or the room
to breed a litter. Fostering abandoned dogs and working to find them loving,
permanent homes will help you understand the awesome responsibility of
bringing more new puppies into the world. After you have worked in rescue
for a couple of years, it will be time to advance to Step 4.

Step 4. When your female reaches age two, you should assess her
qualifications as a breeding animal. First evaluate her temperament. If it
is PERFECT- happy and well-adjusted and not shy or aggressive, then go to
Step 5.

Step 5. Have your female evaluated by several knowledgeable breeders of
top-quality show dogs. Add this to the
information you received if you tried showing her. If she is a good, sound
example of the breed, then go to Step 6.

Step 6. Check her health and verify that she does not show evidence of
inherited disorders that she could pass to her puppies.
Get her shots up to date, and check her for worms and other parasites. If she passes on all counts, go to Step 7.

Step 7. Research her pedigree. What were the results of genetic health
screenings performed on her parents? Grandparents? Littermates? Did they
all have good temperaments? Were they all good representatives of the breed, and did they conform to the breed standard? Is there evidence that the
preponderance of dogs in the pedigree carry the genes for desirable traits?
If this all checks out, go to Step 8.

Step 8. Seek a stud that has passed Steps 4, 5, 6 and 7.
Agree in advance on a stud fee. Then go to Step 9.

Step 9. Research and prepare your sales contracts. Only the finest and
healthiest dogs should be used for breeding, and not all puppies are destined
to grow up to be breeding quality. Therefore, you will probably want to sell
your puppies with limited registrations. Your sales contract should include
a provision which states that if the home does not work out, the puppy will
be returned to you-no matter how old it is. This is a good time invest
in some extra dog pens, crates, etc. so that you always have a place for the
puppies that you breed to return home, even years later. Then go to Step 10.

Step 10. Establish a waiting list of homes for the puppies. Visit the
potential homes in advance, and pay special attention to the fences and
facilities, make sure that the potential new homes are properly equipped. Take monetary deposits to ensure that the puppy buyers are seriously committed and willing to wait to get a puppy from your breeding. This is because often the promise of a good home disappears after the puppies are born. And no puppy should be born without a loving home waiting. Then go to Step 11.

Step 11. Set aside about £250 for vet bills, and an extra £750 in case your
female should require a C-section. You will also need to pay for 2-3 sets of
shots and worming for the litter, which will probably run around £75 per
puppy (more in certain areas). Now on to Step 12.

Step 12. Make arrangements in advance to take time off from work if the puppies should require hand feeding. Hand feeding is required if your female should fail to produce milk, or worse, if she should die from whelping. Factor in the cost of milk replacement products, too. Now go to Step 13.

Step 13. Take a good look at where you will raise the puppies. Baby puppies
can escape through tiny little spaces. Reinforce your fences and prepare a
safe, temperature-controlled place for the puppies to be born. Buy several
cases of paper towels, because baby puppies poop and pee dozens of times a day. Figure you will clean up 10-20 piles and puddles per puppy every day
from the time they are old enough to move around until they are ready to
go to new homes.

Congratulations!

After successfully completing ALL of these steps . . .
you are now ready to breed your female

Leigh Note:Signature URL Snipped :-)

Hi Kelly,

Thanks for this.

Fiona

I'm sure you'll all be pleased to know that we've decided that providing our girl is 'up to it', the relevant tests come back clear and we can find a suitable stud dog we WILL be breeding from her. Obviously we'll be waiting until she's about 3 to mate her so we've got 3 yrs to study the lines and find out all we can about breeding etc.

Wish us luck - God knows we'll need it!!! :D

Fiona