Hi anybody, subsequent to an earlier posting of my 12 day pup not wanting to nurse and mum not being interested, after getting some fluids and antibiotics from the vet seemed to be doing okay, nursing again putting on weight etc. Until last night.

I was hand feeding him through a bottle and he seemed to have a lot of milk round his mouth, so I stopped feeding and was wiping his mouth, he then screamed (like a human scream) and immediately went hard as though he had been in a freezer for 5 hours and didn't seem as though he was breathing. I thought he was dead. I panicked and started rubbing him after a few seconds his body became soft again and he started breathing again. I rang the emergency vet to ask her what had happened. Had he swallowed too hard and got fluid in his lungs? But she said that she had never heard of a puppy going hard like that and that it must have been a reaction to me hurting him!!! and to bring him in in the morning if I was still worried about him.

I kept him on my chest for the next couple of hours, not wanting to give him a feed as I was scared of what would happen, kept a hot water bottle on my belly so he was nice and warm (could it be from dehydration?). After an hour of so of sitting on my chest what seemed like he was resting and content, I kept checking he was still breathing and stroking his belly and legs which I was getting a reaction to. He then did this again, screamed and went hard. Again I rubbed him and he went soft again and was breathing okay. I left it a couple of hours before trying to feed him, he suckled from the bottle okay and a bit later on suckled okay on mum, quite vigorously actually, and he nursed okay on bottle and mum this morning. He seems okay now, he has a strong suckle and he is moving around in the box as opposed to lying motionless in the corner. He has had a hard time of it over the last 5 days but is a fighter (as he's still with us). Does anybody have any idea what could have caused what seemed to be like a seizure, as I am worried in case it happens again. Thanks.

Hi i had the same problems with my litter of 3 where the mum would not feed and her milk had dried up although a week or so later her milk did come back!! I took them to the vets and he told me i had to hand rear them, I also could not get them to drink the milk from a bottle and even tried to sringe the milk to them little by little in the end i added baby rice to the puppy milk which made things alot easier as it was less runny, and i was able to use my finger and put in a little bit in at a time which was easy, and by 3 weeks the pups was lapping on there own at the rice, THEY HAD REGULAR CHECKS AT THE VETS AND THE VET SAID I HAD DONE REALLY WELL, all the pups had put on weight and grew really well they are now over 6 weeks old and all healthy and eating normal puppy food from just over 3 weeks, I don't know if this is any help but it worked for my litter.. Good luck with the little ones!

Hi Millie, thanks I will try baby rice? Did you experience the screaming and freezing as well?

Hi, not experienced this myself, but my friend did with a flatcoat puppy in a litter of 9. Mum not much or no milk and a listless pup. At 1 and 2 days old she was trying to hand feed him from a bottle as he seemed really dehydrated. He too did the stiffness thing, hard as rock she said/ very like a fit and she thought he was dead, but he recovered. Do not know if it was caused by dehydration or fluid on the lungs or both, but he did recover, (quicker than she did from the shock no doubt!!) It was very scary and he was quite limp and quiet for a day or two but he did recover and mums milk inproved and all the pups did well. He went off to his new home at 8 weeks indistuingasable from the others. She had been worried about brain damage but he seems totally fine. Hope all goes well. Ebony

I actually had a baby squirrell do something similar to that, but he also couldn't use his back legs, he ended up having to be euthanized, :(
RudyandMum

It sounds like a fit/seizure.

Were his legs out straight? I had one like this and eventually had it pts. Had a post mortem done and it appeared that its liver had been crushed at some point, possibly during birth, and a large blood clot had reached its brain.

Good Luck with him

Christine

I had one like that in January. As well as the seizures, I couldn't get him warm, even on a hot water bottle. Gave him one drop of Nutridrops every hour, 5ml electrolites every half hour and puppy colostrum every other hour and kept him in my cleavage for 12 hours. Another breeder who saw him left shaking her head, thinking that I was wasting my time. He's now 6 months old and growing well. With hind sight, it would appear that although he appeared to be sucking, he wasn't sucking enough to get sufficient and was becoming dehydrated.
Good luck!

I had a pup that wasn't as young as this but she "died" after choking on some minced beef I was trying to wean the litter onto. She choked and went limp, so I rubbed her hard, holding her upside down, thankfully I must've dislodged whatever it was and she came around. She is now 15 months old and perfectly well. But I'll never use raw mince again. :(

Hi, thank you all so much for your replies, the vet said he might be having milk fits and that I should just carry on doing what I am doing and make a note of the seizures so I can decide the next course of action. I will see how he is over the weekend. I have some nutridrops and puppy colustrum which I will try him with, he seems happy and content other than the fits, he suckles well and has some strength. He moves around well in the box, I am always putting him one place and then finding him somewhere else snuggled up to the other pups. Val what are the electrolites you mentioned? And where can I get these? Christine his legs were out straight when having the fit. Thank you again for your help, it has given me more encouragement now that I know pups have had this and gone on to be okay. I will let you know how he is doing. Thanks all so much again.

Does he tend to throw his front paws up infront almost like a boat?
RudyandMum

Hi RudyandMum, he doesn't throw his legs up in front, he just stiffens as if he was standing on all fours. Should I watch for him doing this and what does it mean?

Electrolites are glucose/saline fluids to rehydrate. Much more important than feeding.
PS Don't try to feed if the pup isn't warm enough, they can't digest it.
Sorry for the delay - I couldn't get back on the board to reply!!

If he does throw his paws up like a boat, or if he loses movement to any degree in his back paws, it could be a nuerological disorder...HTH, good luck.
RudyandMum

Hi Val, thanks for getting back to me, also had trouble getting on the Board, where can I get the Electrolite from?

Wasted nearly an hour trying to get back on the board. Your Vet should be able to sell you some sachets. Osmonds (on the net) sell it in bottles to dilute.
Does anyone know the name and number of that wonderful lady who handrears pups?? Sh'es happy to advise anyone who rings her, and will send you Lifeaid through the post.

What a coincidence, I was having a clearout of my junk yesterday and found an article about her handrearing clinic that I had torn out and kept, but threw it away as I'm not planning any litters for ages now, dumb move... Can't find it now, but found her name and no. in a champ show catalogue as I knew she owned that lovely Havanese Paloma- it's Heather Ridley, she's from near Wisbech. Tel 01945 450475
Hope this helps and good luck.
Liz

That's the lady!! Haven't spoken to her myself, but have heard from many folks that she's VERY helpful!!

Hi

I know this will sound really stupid, but i have had the same sort of problem with quite a few puppies in the past, i don't know how stiff your puppy went! but i have had them when they get wind really bad, they scream hold their breathe and go really stiff it seem's weird because your one seemed to do it around feed time. What i do with pups like this is give them around 1ml of gripe water before and after feeding this helps greatly. At the time it's happening it looks so serious but i've found this to be the case every time! :)

Hi,

I've had the experience you describe with bottle fed pups. The first time it happened it frightened me to near death! I really thought I’d lost the puppy but I could just about elicit a reflex response to pinching its nose so I knew it was alive. It happened when bottle-feeding and the spasms and scream reminded me of one of my babies with Colic. I went and mixed up a mild solution of bicarbonate of soda and gently syringed a few drops into his mouth. Almost before my eyes the puppy seemed to revive and it was obvious the puppy had wind! It’s happened a couple of time since with bottle fed pups and I repeated the bicarbonate of soda treatment to good effect. If I ever experience this I always assume it’s wind/colic and a give bicarbonate of soda (gripe water is made from bicarbonate of soda!) before I think of any other cause.

Over many years I’ve hand reared approx. 14 pups and this seems to be quite a frequent occurrence. Baby teats and bottles are not really the best for feeding, obviously if you have to take over feeding they are better than the pup going hungry, but they do seem to swallow an awful lot of air, both from the bottle and from where their lips/tongue do not form a completely airtight seal around the teat as they would on their mothers nipple.

Hope this helps.

Hi all, thank you all so so much for all your help and advice. I took the little one off of Welpi and since giving him Puppy Colustrum as his feed, he hasn't had a fit since, he is a bit wheezy after a feed though so now I am adding some gripe water to his feed before and after and this too seems to be helping his breathing. Now I can get back on the Board (couldn't at all yesterday), I will try and search for info on colic as I think as well as the milk problem he might also have a touch of colic, again upsetting his tummy. He has gone from 13oz on Friday to 1lb 2 oz and is now trying to stand like his litter mates. He also wriggles like mad now looking for his feed, he is also getting back over to mum and she is now taking an interest in cleaning him too. I truly believe all the help and advice has helped to save my little un's life. Thank you all so much, I am truly grateful more than I could put into words.

I am currently hand rearing a 1 week old bordeaux puppy.
After previous experience of bottle feeding and the associated problems eg. milk going on the lungs and excess air being swallowed I am tube feeding with whelpi.
This is a much easier method and there is no risk of milk going on the lungs as the tube goes direct into the stomach.
I admit the first few time you do it are nerve wracking as you worry you may put the tube into the wind pipe by error, but if you are taught to do it correctly the risks of this happening are much lower than that of milk inhalation from bottle feeding.
Also if you have a large litter you are having to bottle feed by the time the last pup has finished their bottle it is time for the first one to be fed again :-(
Your vet should give you a demonstration on tube feeding and provide you with the syringe and tube. The amount to give can be judged by how satisfied your pup is after each feed and as the pup puts weight on you increase the volume of milk given.
My pup, before we realised was going to need to be hand reared wighed 15oz. Today at 9 days old she weighs 2lb 2oz.
It is easier to tube if there are two of you,one to hold the puppy but I am managing on my own as my hubby works.

A friend of mine had to hand rear a litter of 4 last year. Gill Averis, the vet and Weim breeder, advised not using either a bottle or tube feeding but showed her how to feed by syringing milk onto her finger and allowing the puppy to suckle on her finger. I understand it was very fiddly to do but worked very well. The pups did not take in the same amount of air as they tend to do when using a bottle, and they also get the satisfaction of suckling which they don't when tube feeding.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Funny you should mention the satisfaction of suckling being missed when tubing. Once the tube is in place I pop my finger in pups mouth and she suckles on that whilst I tube the milk in. As it does not take long to tube the feed in she is not suckling for ages and sucking in lots of air as with bottle feeding.
The reason we are hand rearing her is that mom had to have a c-section and did not get any maternal feelings :-(, though she does have a small amount of milk we do let pup suckle on her for a while but she does not have enough milk to fed her. The mom has no interest in the toilet duties so I am also doing that too.

I hope both Mum and pup do well,

I'm just sitting beside my laptop watching my bitch have contractions as she gets worried if I go out of her sight.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Hi Joan

Hope everything goes well and you are not to tired out tonight :) Dont forget to let us know

Gina

Sadly Truffle had to have a Caesar and was found to have one large dead puppy, thought to have been dead for 12 to 24 hours. Luckily she is ok.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

I'm sorry to hear that Joan, so glad that mum is okay though.

Oh dear, that's a shame, Joan. Poor Truffle - and you. At least she's okay though.

Thank you. She is recovering well which is the most important thing.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Oh Joan I am so sorry to hear this but am glad that mum is getting better.

Best wishes Gina x

sorry to hear that. love and best wishes to you and mum. xxxxxxxxxxxxx.

So sorry to hear your news Joan. How disappointing, and sad for you and Truffle.
Glad she is ok though.
Liz

Sad to read your post Joan, hope Truffle continues to be ok. How disappointing for you.

So sorry to hear that.
Our bitch had 2 pups and had to have c-section. The little boy had been dead for a few days and it is the little girl that I am hand rearing. The 1st scan she had showed one pup, the second more than one and the final scan again only one pup, so we were prepared for a c-section only to find 2 pups.
I hope you bitch is OK.

Thank you all. Truffle is recovering well and will, I hope, soon be back to her old self.

Hope your little girl is coming on well, and of course her mum as well.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth