I am finally getting my 8 month old Pekingese spayed tomorrow. I am very worried about her mentality changing. Is this possible? Could I come home Saturday evening with a different pup?

-Lola

IMO she is too young for you to notice any change, as she will not have developed her own personality yet. The thing that would worry me more is if the coat is affected and if it is you may well have to keep her clipped out. You will also have to watch her weight else you will finish up with a fat dog with a matted coat who cant breath properly

Hi Jackie

When you say hasn't developed her personality do you mean full grown up personality?!!:)

Just that puppies I feel they do start to develop a personality at quite an early age which develops further as the pup matures ?? !

Probably me interperating your post incorrectly !! :D

Lucy

Yep, that is what I meant, even though a toy dog it is not adult until at least 15 months, a general rule is the larger the dog the later it matures, big or heavy boned dogs being later than light boned. The Pekingese being big boned for it's size it is comparatively late to mature.

It will not change the pup as it is now, it just will never develop to it's full adult character, which the owner wont notice because they will never know what it would have been.

Hi Lola - I shouldn't worry at all about her changing into a different dog - being speyed is the best thing for her - especially if you have absolutely no wishes to breed from her - you won't have to worry about her coming into season and dogs sniffing about and she can just get on with enjoying life without all that hassle!!

I had my two Lab's (albeit, they are boys) 'done' at 20 months and 10 months and their personalities haven't changed a bit.

Don't worry about it!!

As a matter of interest Lisa how old are the boys! now.

The one done at 20 months is now nearly 4 and, admittedly, the one done at 10 months was only 'snipped' a month ago but apart from good changes (like not mounting the other one and showing his horrid pink 'you know what' all the time!!!) there has been no change in his 'personality' - they're both still as silly as ever!

No I would not expect the personality to change, once castrated they do not continue to mature and remain more or less at the stage they are when they have their glands removed. Have you had any health problems with the 4 year old at all, apart from the fact that he is still behaving like a 20 month yongster?

I must say, you sound as if you don't particulary approve of having dogs 'done'? If I could turn the clock back, I probably wouldn't have had the older one done as he has turned into such a perfect example that it has been a shame not to breed from him, so I do regret that a bit. On the other hand, I am perfectly happy with the way they are/behave and wouldn't really want them to mature in the strict sense of that word I don't think - although it has really never occurred to me.

No, luckily, no health problems at all (fingers crossed) - should there have been? and I certainly don't consider the fact he still behaves like a 20 month youngster as a health problem - although I'm sure you didn't mean it to sound like that.

Not my place to approve or otherwise. I would never do it again without good reason, having had a very bad experiance with the only dog I have ever had done and with some research found out that he is not the only one to suffer. When you castrate you remove some where between a quater and a third of the dogs hormonal system and it would seem that some dogs can't deal with this loss. If a young woman has her ovaries removed it is common practice to give hormones to stop the woman going into early menapause. I do not know how it works with human males but there does seem to be some bad effects in at least some dogs.

The difference with Human males is we don't remove the offending object:D simply cut the tube that carries the dangerous product - hence the hormones are still produced. Similarly in women who just have their tubes tied - the hormones are all still there. It's only when the ovaries are removed that HRT is given - afaik.

Pam n the intact boys

Another who doesn't approve, I gather?? Whateverrrrrrrr.

Liza it is not a case of approve or otherwise, you deal with your dogs the way you think best and I do the same. If you ask my opinion I will give it, but the you did not, and it is water under the bridge now. I only asked how your dogs were because I am, and have been asking the owners that very question for years now and you were just someone else to ask. No critisim given or intended.

Pammy I was thinking rather of a human male with both testies removed, which I supose does happen but you don't hear about it, with women with the overies removed we know that medication is given. Would like to know about males but if there are any they keep it to themselves.

Jackie - Eunuchs!!!:D they've had them both removed and are generally large but docile chaps. Found a web-site with some interesting info

WARNING - contains explicit matrial about human castration effects and also a very vey old photo so don't look if you don't want to:D

here

Eunuchs are done for a specific reason rather than a medical intervention. I guess that hormone replacement ie testosterone could be given for those done for different - ie medical reasons, in the same way those undergoing sex changes are given the relevant hormones.

But to bring this back to pooches:D - I would have no hesitation Lisa in getting either or both of my boys done if it became necessary. I would never say anyone was wrong to get their dog done - as long as the decision was made with all the facts available rather than being told to do it and not knowing why. Each is entitled to their own view on this - ours differ. No big deal. The eunuch info actually gives some very useful information about how, when done before maturity it does stop the boys maturing. Yes they grow, but not adult hair, their voices don't deepen and they do not reach sexual maturity. I don't see why it should be different for a dog if done before they are mature, ie an adult.

jmho

Pam n the boys

Interesting Pam, I think as you say, that should it prove necessary, a modern 'man' would be offered hormones to replace those that can no longer be produced by the body. I don't know how often this happens in the case of dogs, only know it is an expensive business.

It's not about approving or disapproving - it's about what is right for the dog. I have male rescue dogs who usually come to me already done. I've just have a foster neutered last week - he needed it as at the age of 5, he was still trying to hump any dog or bitch that moved!. However I have one entire rescue male who I have no intention of having neutered - his personality and behaviour does not warrant it, neutering may change the way the other dogs react to him and he shows no interest in females. I personally do not feel, in his case, that any health benefits (which seem to be far less for males than females) outweigh the possible effects on his behaviour and interaction with other dogs. I would always spay females (they are the ones at risk from accidental pregnancy) but for males, it often depends on the individual dog.

I watched a show about the males that have this done (some being munks). It's so they can concentrate in life what is important to them. They not only have their testy's removed but also their penis as well. Some african villages do this as well.

U can have ur dog sniped (the defran tubes) same as a male human (visectomy) being snipped and then the dogs still have their harmones, the urge but cannot reproduce at all.

I too if not breeding from my dogs I will have male or female fixed I do not want to deal with the behavior change (if there is one), them wanting to breed (unwanted litter, there is enough unwanted animals pts everyday) and any health problems associated with them being in tact. This is just me. I have 2 females and 3 males fixed and do not regret one thing about it. I had 2 fixed at 5 months and they do seem to act very hyper and puppyish at times but hey it's like always having a pup around and I wouldn't change it at all. Mind u even my intact male (Junior) acts like a pup at times too. Tiva on the other hand gets her spurts of charge every now and then probably because she's 5 and I bred from here. None of my boston's are over weight and I free feed them as well, and their coat is very shiny and healthy too so have not found any change in them from being fixed. very healthy furbabies?

It all comes down to whether U want to fix ur animal or not, just way the pro's and con's :)

ttfn :)

ttfn :)

hi
after reading these posts i'im a bit worried, i was all for getting my boxer pup spayed before she had a season but i am concerned about this subject of not maturing shes very very playful and thats fine as a small pup but i was looking forward to her calming down a bit,i will still get her spayed but do i do before or after a season?? does it really prevent them from maturing???

jackie

I would do it 3 months after her first season. If you leave it until after her 2nd, wait till 3 months after again so everything has returned to normal :)

Hi Jackie,

I don't know where you live, but in the UK I believe most vets advise spaying after the first season, generally about 3 months after the start of the first season. Your pup will not calm down because of spaying, it does not effect personality or mental maturity. Age will come her down - wait a couple of years. :-)

Stacey

If you spay that young and before her 1st or 2nd season you run a far higher than normal risk of her becoming incontinent, and also the female external genitalia remain in the juvenile state and this too can cause a good deal of problems. If you feel you really must spay then try and wait till she is fully adult and if posible not till 3 months after her 3rd season.

And I know some vets will do it as young as you like to ask but they do not have to live with the results. They just collect the money you pay out when you try to put things right.

Edited to say that spaying will keep her younger longer so don't do it to calm a pup it wont, in fact, she will remain a junvenile for the rest of her life, although of course she will learn in time. Best way to calm her down is to let her grow up with out your having her spayed.

But if you follow the advice above, please make sure that your pup is confined adequately for her entire season!

Pauline

Of course Pauline, I am not suggesting people behave without consideration. When you buy a dog you know it comes, not only with responsibilities but also as a complete animal, sex organs and all. If you feel you can't deal with the complete animal in a responsible way, then yes, you should either not have a dog in the first place, or have the one you have neutered. But some consideration must be given to the dog surely, and neutering is not without cost to the dog and the younger the dog the higher the cost.

Quite right, Pauline. And it isn't difficult to do. You just have to be vigilant, and keep as close an eye on your bitch as you would a toddler - never let her out of your sight.

>>once castrated they do not continue to mature and remain more or less at the stage they are when they have their glands removed<<

Tee hee, seems that my dogs don't know about this :D. I think your statement is a stereotype which I can not support and I have had hundreds of dogs spayed and neutered at various stages of their lives.

Sarah

And lived with them Sarah, you must be very old or own so may dog you would not know anyway. Please re read my post I said they will learn!

Jackie,

I spay dogs before homing them and because of the breeds I rescue they are with me for months. I also do after checks at a regular base :D. In addition to this I have 9 dogs of my own which are all done :D.

So there ;).

Sarah

I have a 12 year old boy, who was neutered at 7 years old.

I'm sure he would love to still be acting like a 7 year old!!

Pauline

I said the later you do it the less likely it is to have a sever effect. I would call 7 old enough to make little difference.

Well we can only speak as we find, I live with mine and have just buried the last one I castrated who suffered so much in his life his having to be PTS was a kind release. Needles to say I will not do it again, should I ever find I am unable to look after my dogs and keep them confined and act in a responsible way, without castrating or spaying, then that will be the day I stop owning dogs.

Each to their own, Jackie. I have not made ANY negative experience with spaying and neutering, and to me it has more benefits then drawbacks.

Sarah

Sarah, you have been extraordinarly fortunate if out of 100's of dogs you have never noticed any ill effects. One only has to ask a few people who have had there dogs done to gleen no end of physical changes not all in the best interest of the dog. Still as you say if that is really your observations I can't argue, but I would ask people considering such an action to go and look and ask around a bit, unfortunatly you have to know what a health intact dog looks like to judge the matter properly and I suppose first time owners do not have this advantage.

Neutering won't halt the physical aging process, Pauline! It may alter the process of maturing - but once mature, it won't rejuvenate!
:)

I am well aware of that, but I felt that the topic was getting a little bit 'heavy'!

But seriously, we are all aware that irresponsible people will continue to buy dogs. Wouldn't it be better to encourage them to neuter those dogs?

Pauline

JG, neutering at a very young age does halt physical developement, the vulva and the head development are particulaly noticable.

But it will not stop the wear and tear on the body, may even speed it up it the dog is young and not fully developed as far as bone is concerened.

Jackie, I was comparing the aging process with maturing - to me two different things ;) - hard to explain, but along the lines of a thing having to be "mature" (fully developed) before it can start to "age" (go into decline).

Neutering can stop the maturing process, but the dog will still get old and worn out. :(

Probably as clear as mud! :rolleyes:
:)

at what age is it best to have a male neutered? my yorkie is 3years old in october and my vet said that it might make him stop being so possesive of things (toys, territory etc) He's fine with other dogs when were out but at home if friends visit with their dogs he attacks them, male or female, even pups. He isnt sexual at all and i would really like to keep him intact but do worry about his behaviour at home. Does any1 think this wud stop it????

Jacki - you could try the Tardak injection first to see if it has the desired effect. It is a temporary chemical castration that halts the production of the male hormonoes so you can see just how effective full physical castration might be. I used it on one of my boys to find surgery woukld not have made the slightest difference to him.

Effects become noticable - if any, after anout 4 - 5 days and last anything between 2 and 8 weeks.

hth

Pam n the boys

If what you say is true, Jackie, how come vets in the US for example recommend pediatric spaying as young as 8 weeks? These dogs and cats must then, according to you spend life in eternal puppyhood and have deformities (sp). But before a discussion on that subject starts, I am dead against pediatric spaying/neutering.

Sarah

Interesting you raise that point Sarah. On a previous thread about albinism, there were links to albino Dobermanns. It was noticeable that the adult males (who had been castrated early) had very under-developed penises, not at all what one would expect on a mature male.

Sarah, my thoughts and consernes have been expressed to any number of vets, a good number of vets will agree with me, but say they do as their owners request and keep their mouths shut, even had one vet say they were suprised that someone had not yet sued a vet for not being told what it could do to the dog. They think the main thing may be that people accept their dogs problems as just one of those things. Have asked several times if they will put their thoughts on paper but they wont, saying they are not going looking for trouble.

As I said after my experance and research I would feel guilty if I did not say what I feel, what people do is up to them, I have done as my conscience dictates.

Asked my vet what he thought of the practice in the USA, at first he did not believe me and when I assured him it was true, he said in his opinion it was obscene.

May I ask, Jackie, what were the probems that you have experienced?

It is obscene in my opinion, too. I generally spay and neuter according to breed (x). But in country like Ireland where there is clearly an overpopulation of dogs and manuy are pts'd in pound etc it would irresponsble not to spay or neuter. Pediatric spaying and neutering is endorsed by the American Veterinary Medical Association, American Animal Hospital Association, Humane Society of the United States, and dozens of organizations. I would not consider it an option before rehoming a puppy but luckily I am very diligent with follow ups after rehoming.

Sarah

They do Taylor, but as most of these are rescue mongrels their full mature state would be hard to predict, but the studies that they did comparing intact males, and those neutered at 7 months and 7 weeks I think it was showed that both the neutered groups had underdeveloped male genitals, though the diference between the 7 week and 7 months groups was not marked (which of course doesn't surprise me as both done before full sexual maturity). would have been better to compare entire, cstrated early and castrated as adults.

In my own personal experience of males in my breed, those castrated young turn into Eunuchs. they fail to develop a male head, and their bodies reswemble that of a bitch, but larger. The pones that were castrated as fully mature adults look like prper males, but in some cases do not grow quite such a nice ruff as full males.

Neutering prepubescent animals also causes the natural process of growing to be altered, and the long bones grow for a few months longer, so these animals are often taller, but have reduced bone mass, something not desirable in some of the big heavy breeds.

Also the mental maturity seems impaired in the early neuters. This is the reason I advise neutering after sexual maturity. so that the traits that make dogs and bitches different (which are those that make people opt for one or other) have a chance to develop.

As for wearing out, in some things netering will cause some systems to be adversely affected (Osteoporosis) but with others (low grqade womb infections that can pull a bitch down in condition if not noticed or treated) will be improved.

Interestingly the August Issue of Dogs today has an article on the Pros and Cons of neutering, and mentions that the study saying Mammary tumours were prevented has been largely discredited, by a recnet study at Bristol University.

you've misunderstod what i meant i'im not getting her spayed to calm her down but to stop her having unwanted puppies as i live in a busy neighbourhood which have dogs,what bothered me was the comment about them not being able to mature properly because of being spayed. and i will most certainly be getting it done as it gives the bitch a lot of health benefits theres nothing worse than seeing a dog that is quite obviously to old to have pups but still eager to mate as nature takes over and the result of pregnancy could kill her ,only experienced people should breed not your neighbour down the road who's bitch got out and got caught by the local heinz 57 ending up with puppies nobody wants!!!! but i will be waiting until she has her first season thanks for your advice

jackie

Taz was fixed at about 1 year of age and well he seems all fine in himself and seemed to mature properly, he will be 10 years in October. Cuervo our bitch was spayed at about 2 years old and seemed to mature properly as well she passed on at 10 years of age (rectom cancer) :(.

After reading every thing on maturing properly ( head, body, ect) I too will wait to fix any other animals till they are adults. My boston's may still act pretty puppyish but they are still babies to me any how, they are between 1 and 2 years of age, so they are still young and boston's tend to be pretty hyper. But I do see a different in their body build and their head, gential area when fixed before adult hood. But for people that can't garentee to keep them safe from getting pregnant/or getting a bitch pregnant I don't see anything wrong with fixing early better then unwanted babbies having to be aborted or pts. Here there is a spay and neutor program for dogs but only on the age of 4 months to 6 months and thats to try and stop all the unwanted animals everyday, they want to get them done before the heat and instincts kick in. Which I can understand the humane society is so over run it just makes u cry.

Me personally I'm planning on only sticking to males now and not planning on getting them fixed. Since I do prefer males over females. I think I may get into doing more things with them and using them for stud, of course not until they pass all their health checks ect. But not till the distant future :) way distant future.

ttfn :)

hi
just wondered why you prefer males to females

jackie

My dog is 8 years old, rehomed at 5, prior to which he had been a stud dog. Apparently he was not much cop at that, and his interest in the ladies - and cushions etc! - is minimal. Many doggy people I know told me I should get him neutered to stop the marking, eradicate his occasional minor aggression and generally calm him down. I don't believe in surgery other than for medical reasons; I especially don't believe in surgery where humans rather than the dog would be the main beneficiaries.

Recently he stayed with a very experienced dog owner who is also very pro neutering, and the advice I got was that he would benefit greatly from castration.

I therefore tried him on Tardak. On the whole, the results were very pleasing - as far as I was concerned. He was much calmer; he did proper pees rather than lots of little spurts - handy before long journeys - didn't mark; was more tolerant of dogs he doesn't like... BUT his appetite was insatiable, and when I refused to quadruple his food to accommodate this, he scavenged, horribly. He ate any old crap, fag butts, you name it. Also, entire males seemed to take a dislike to him and there were a number of incidents when he was sniffing away, minding his own business and other dogs, from yards away, just went for him. He had no interest in retaliating, he just wanted to get out of the situation.

I see no reason to believe that things would be any different were I to get him snipped, so as far as I am concerned, I would be getting him snipped for my convenience yet at likely risk to his health from stomach problems and attacks by other dogs. Needless to say, I have left him as nature intended.

Jackie,
I just do prefer males over females. I like their size and their personalities better, I find they are a better looking speciman of the breed (just my own opinion). Plus if I have a bitch then I have problems selling the pups cause I want to keep them all, no lack of owners :( . Not only that I find u can do more things with a male and don't have to worry about heats and pups. Males I find are easier to look after if you want to keep intact :) . I'm glad that my bitch is now spayed but do miss the lil ones. I like them both but like I said their are more pro's then con's to keeping a male intact to keeping a bitch :)

My own opinion :)

ttfn :)

Just in response to Jacki whose vet advised her to neuter, it doesn't sound as though castration would benefit your dog at all. If he is aggressive to dogs, bitches and puppies that come into your home, that sounds like territorial aggression, sexual aggression would only be with males.
You say he is fine with other dogs, do you find he tends to be timid and a little submissive?
I would guess that he is a little afraid of other dogs, and can be a bit more fiesty when at home because he's on his own territory, giving him confidence and also more of a motivation to make them go away. I really don't think having him 'done' would change his behaviour at all.
Vets don't know a great deal about behaviour, especially the older ones, and do tend to advise castration as a matter of course. I'm sure it's just coincidence that they advise that and that their business would suffer if we didn't have our dogs neutered.

Also, Turtle (L.W?) I recently found out that tardak does have a strong sedative effect, so that would be why your dog (O?) calmed down a lot on it. Neutering would not have the same effect.

Jo