I have been reading the posts here for a few months, and i have posted a couple of times, but something has intrigued me for a while.
Whenever someone comes on here and asks about breeding their dog, they always get the same responses, (health tests? showing? etc) which I have to say, I agree with totally.
However, when someone mentions having their dog spayed or neutered, there are always negative posts as well.
"The thing that would worry me more is if the coat is affected and if it is you may well have to keep her clipped out. You will also have to watch her weight else you will finish up with a fat dog with a matted coat who cant breath properly "
"Springers when neutered end up with very hard to amage wooly coats. Takes a lot of hard work to make them look nice. Also if the dog is submissive by nature it can make it more so. Food may need to be cut down, and often they have increased appetite, so need to be watched carefully so as they don't get fat."
"whether a vet advises on the best age or does a neutering on demand, depends on whether he/she is more concerned with the welfare of the dog or their bank balance and sadly, there are too many vets who regard neutering as *a nice little earner* and do it straight away in case the client changes their mind "
In my opinion, the average pet owner, living in an average house, does not have the facilities to adequately keep a bitch in season confined, as it has been stated before an entire dog will climb over a 7 foot fence to get to a bitch in heat.
If spaying and neutering were more encouraged, I believe there would be less potential BYB.
Is it only me that sees this advice as a little hypocritical?
Pauline

Hi Pauline,

I do not think it's hypocritical to be concerned about health tests for doggy parents and also to be against routine neutering. They really are two separate issues.

However, I personally believe in neutering any dog that will not be bred. There is no other 100 percent sure way of preventing pregnancy 100 percent of the time. There is a only a very small percentage of people that are willing to take the necessary measures to confine a bitch in season and prevent unwanted male visitors. Most pet owners have no idea when a bitch is fertile or how common it is for intact males to go to unbelievable lengths to reach the bitch. It is the very reason why every major animal protection agency advocates neutering. The NCDL even lists on its web site how many animals it has spayed.

So, I have to say that I too get irritated when individuals encourage others not to neuter a companion dog or bitch.

Stacey

Pauline

It's not hypoctritical - just ensuring people are aware of all the issues. That is consistent. With breeding it is essential that they are aware of the potential health problems of the breed and the full implications of breeding. It's no different to neutering your dog you need to be aware of the full implications It's not just a minor op with no after effects or potential complications. People have the right to know this and make their own decision.

We have different opinions Stacey - but that's fine. The world runs on differences - doesn't mean you're right - or that I am - just different points of view.

hth Pauline

Pam n the boys

No, it's not hypocritical at all, Pauline. In any issue it is important to have all the facts - advantages and disadvantages - so that a reasoned decision can be made.

The important thing, in my opinion, is the welfare of the dog, not the convenience of the owner. Breeding a dog has serious health and welfare considerations - so does neutering. I've never been one of the "off with his goolies and out with her bits" evangelists - to me it's a more important issue than that. Every dog and every owner is different.

I don't keep bitches but my mum always has-neither of us have had our dogs routinely neutered/spayed(only for medical reasons) .We have never had any unwanted litters or matings.We both keep muliple dogs in average 2/3 bed semi detached houses.Can't see what the problem is-if you want to keep your dog from mating you can-you don't need to have them neutered.I show my dogs but also like to keep my dogs entire since I like the male attitude (often refered to as stallion-like) which IMO is lost with neutering.I also don't want to alter their coats etc...
What I mean by all this is that no-one is being irresponsible for leaving their animals entire-its all down to personal preferance.
As for health tests-we're all in agreement aren't we...YES!!!!
Archer

I've never had a problem with keeping entire males or females, and neither (and I have kept both) have tried to escape or had an accidental mating.

I agree that people who cannot guarantee their dogs won't escape, or people that have inconsiderate neighbours who keep entire males without ensuring they can't escape should neuter. But, I do not believe in the spay/neuter everything in sight brigade. Its a matter of choice and circumstance.

Edit - I don't call that hypocritical either - I call it "offering advice in order to make an informed decision" :)

I too find some replies hypocritical in this area. People are told that it is not necessary to neuter dogs unless there is a particular problem, but they are then told that they should keep their unneutered females at home and not take it out when in season. Unneutered males are, apparently, able to run freely as it is 'impossible' to control their natural urges. If 'accidents' happen, then the owner is irresponsible.

I have no problem with people who want to keep their dogs intact, as long as they recognise that they are perhaps the minority who are a) responsible owners, and more importantly, b) 100% certain that they have the facilities and the ability to ensure that they can keep their dogs and other dogs apart ALL the time.

If neutering was not available - because I class myself in category a) - but NOT in category b), I would not own a dog :(

Are people saying that the only dog owners should be those who class themselves as in category a) AND b) - or in NEITHER category ?

Daisy

No-one has said its o.k for males to run freely!!I live in an area where there are many 'latch key' dogs-both male and female,they're both as bad as each other.Its not down to sex its down to irresposible owners!
No one is categorising people either-its down to personal circumstances
Archer

There was a comment, made on here a little while ago, that people with bitches in season should not walk them out of the house because it was impossible for owners of males to control them - therefore it was the fault of a female's owner (even if the female was on a lead) if a male was attracted to them.

Daisy

I think you will find that people refered to taking in season bitches where dogs are likely to be off lead.

I do not drive, and live in an ordiary suburb, threfore I walk my inseason bitches on a lead around the streets, but do not take them to the park where they could upset other people and their dogs.

It is iresponsible in my view to spring an in season bitch on the owners of males whose dogs are suddenly deaf to their owners calls. Needs a very highly trained dog to ignore a bitch in season, just polite in my view.

Now I do have a problem with those who against the law walk their dog off lead down my street.

There was one the other day sniffing outsdie my next door neighbours house, and he would not respond to his owner.

I was just returning from my other neigbours house, and said "I would get him on lead, as my bitch is in season in that house" (she has in fact just finished), he got him on a lead pretty quick!!!!

I totally agree about personal circumstances. What I do not like is the argument that neutering is wrong unless done for medical reasons. If an owner feels that (for them) neutering is the way for them to go, then surely they should be applauded for a responsible attitude to the unwanted pregnancy problem, rather than criticised.

Daisy

I can see your point - but I still think that if you have the facilities to cope with keeping an entire male or a bitch then you should be left to get on with it... Just because you do not have a dog good enough to breed from, does not mean you should have to get it neutered :)

I don't have an issue with neutered males (when its done for the right reasons), BUT, I do prefer the entire male mentaility.

JMO of course :)

But it's not really anything to do with wanting to breed from the dog for the average pet owner is it ?You are an experienced owner and know your own abilities/limitations, so can make an informed choice:)

I class myself as a still novice owner - having only had sole responsibility of dogs for 4 years. There are some mistakes that I do NOT want to gain experience by - having an unplanned litter is one of them. What really annoys me is people encouraging less experienced owners, who are not as sure of their abilities, NOT to have the dog neutered. Perhaps all FIRST TIME owners SHOULD have their dogs neutered ? Just a thought :) Waiting for the comments now :)

Daisy

I can understand people who show, not neutering their dogs. I can also understand people who have had bad experiences with neutering in the past, not doing it.
However most do owners, unfortunately aren't like us on here. We're an exception to the rule.
Most dogs are family pets, people go out and get them without a second thought, some think they're just a bit of property.
You hear about people putting their dogs to sleep because they don't want to pay a fortune in vets fees. I couldn't do that and i'm sure most of you couldn't either.
At the end of the day, neutering would save a lot of charities alot of money, the number of strays would go down, and there would be less dogs put to sleep in this country, because there are no homes out there for them.
I personally agree with neutering and have had all of mine done, both bitch and dogs. Not for me but for them.
There was something in the paper yesterday about a dachsie with back trouble (on a cart), had been caught by a yorkshire terrier, and then had pups.
This is so irresponsible, but it is also reality.

Totally agree.People not able or willing to prevent straying/pregnancy should neuter.But that is the personal preference/situation thing.Unfortunately as you say its those who couldn't care less that end up with pups-so they're not going to pay for the spaying in the first place.
People round here think I'm odd because I DON'T let my dogs out to play!!!!
Archer

Lol @ Archer.
People think i'm odd because i'm very particular what my lot eat.

I feel that concern and consideration should be given to the dog. The owner takes on the dog and the responsibility of taking care of that dog and that includes not allowing the dog to become a nuisance to others. If you are unable to control your dog and think you must neuter then do but don't expect it to be totaly without cost to your pet. They may be lucky and get away scot free from your decision but they may not.

I appreciate all the different opinions.

I suppose that mainly my point is that I have seen many posts here from novice owners who have been "turned off" the idea of neutering their dogs. I am pretty sure that they don't have any idea how determined an entire dog can be to get to an unspayed bitch! Many of you have the correct facilities, and knowledge, to protect their bitches, and ensure their dogs don't stray. Good for you!

Surely preventing an unwanted litter is more important than having a good coat?

Pauline

I do have a problem with several attitudes, not least the one that if you have an entire dog/bitch you are bound to have an unplanned litter! What nonsense! The 'facilities' needed to protect a bitch in season from being mated are available to everyone - keep an eye on her and don't leave her unattended! It's common sense. If people aren't wise enough for that then maybe they should reconsider what pet they have!
:)

I agree with that, but how many "pet owner" are going to watch their bitch 24 hours a day?

I don't mean to offend anyone's opinion (I feel we are all entitled to one!) but I am concerned that not all people who own dogs are responsible. If they were, there would be no accidental litters.

Pauline

Most of them I would think! The bitch is indoors most of the time anyway, and you simply go outside with her when you let her into the garden, and bring her in afterwards. As I've said before, just like keeping a toddler safe.

The older I get the more I realise that common sense is not very common.

Lots of people with dogs have kids, the kids open the gate, or the front door, and out runs the dog or bitch. Many dogs in my neighborhood are kept in fenced gardens, but at one time or another most of them have managed to get loose.

Many people want males because they do not believe in neutering and they do not want the "mess" of a bitch in season, nor an unplanned litter. They are wise enough to figure out that it would be unlikely they could keep a intact bitch without her getting pregnant at some point. It annoys me that some of these same people think that since they are not the ones that will end up with a pregnant bitch it is therefore not their problem. Including not their problem if their intact dog decides to scale or dig under a six foot fence to get at a bitch in season. Zero sense of responsibility so long as they are not the ones that get burnt.

I agree absolutely that a bitch in season has to be watched every minute, even in their own garden, even it it looks as impenetrable as a prison. The problem is first that there are not many people willing to do this and/or they may also not be able to prevent accidental escapes (see kids above.)

People that believe they can be as vigilant as needed to keep a bitch in season and away from intact males, fine, do not neuter. It certainly is not a medical necessity and I expect the health benefits of neutering are at least equally balanced by the potential risk from surgery and the effects of neutering.

Stacey

I think theres always a way to ensure your dog doesn't escape and kids are not an excuse.I have 4 children and have had dogs since they were babies.Doors have bolts put on out of reach of little hands and gates are chained and padlocked.I also have a child safety gate (even though my youngest child is now9) across the hallway so that when the front door is opened the dogs are restrained.By the way my children are very well 'trained'(LOL) their freinds on a whole aren't as far as dealing with dogs so most of my measures are done for non-family members.However better safe than sorry.
Archer

I've kept entire male dogs for the past 30 years now and oly had on accident with them, when a friend purposely bought their in season bitch into MY garden without telling me !!!!
In my personal experience is very much a case of what they haven't had they don't miss, and normally by about 3/4 years old they have lost interest.
What I do find annoying is the amout of people that walk their bitches off lead when they are in season and then panic when my dogs go near them, or they walk the streets and cross roads leaving a nice scent for all the boys to follow, I;ve been lucky in that none of mine have ever been wanderers and yes I've bought up 2 kids in that time too.

Ingrid

If only it was as simple as that Pauline. I have males and have no trouble keeping them in, I have friends with dogs and they have no trouble. Can you tell me why it is thought so difficult to keep your dog where you want him.

And the effects of neutering is by no means confined to a change in the coat, mind you if that leads to skin infection it can be far from a simple matter too. Some dogs are unaffected and the older the dog at the time of the operation, then the less likely they are to suffer ill effect. Some however, suffer all their lives and dealing with it, knowing that you caused the suffering is, believe me, hard to bear. I don't speak from high ideals I speak from experance, and although I accept that people have a right to do as they wish with their dogs, I would feel quilty, if I did not point out that to neuter is not the end of all your problems and in some sad cases it is just the start.

Pet owners must be different in your country than in mine (I am in Australia)
I am really happy that you can keep your dogs in your garden, but I do know that many cannot.

I have three pure bred dogs, all from good breeders. All are neutered or spayed. (please don't tell them, especially my 11 month old boy, that I have harmed them)

I am still convinced that spaying or neutering is the only way to cut the unwanted pet population, but I am obviously in the minority.

Pauline

I think education is a better way forward in the long term.

As I've said in the past, I am not anti neutering per se, just anti any routine surgery, for people as well as animals. If there is a good reason to do it, then fine, but be sure you know all the facts, the pros and cons, the potential benefits and risks, before you choose. After all, once done it can't be undone.
:)

I still find this whole argument a little bit hypocritical.

I know there are many people who can, and will, supervise a non-neutered animal whenever necessary, but there are many who can not (or will not)!

I still beleive that neutering should be encouraged, especially to a novice owner, but I am obviously in the minority.

Pauline

"Will not" is, I think, the essence of the problem, Pauline! Thoughtless, heedless people maybe should have their animals (if they keep them at all) neutered. But a sensible, caring owner should not be made to feel 'railroaded' into having it done. It is, after all, "non-essential" surgery.
Just my opinion.
:)

I do not want anyone to feel "railroaded" into neutering their dog!

My only problem has been with obviously novice owner who have been discouraged from neutering their pets! Some who had already decided to have the procedure done!

I think its more upto the individual isn't it? Personally when i sell my pups i advise the owners to have them 'DONE' if they are to remain as pets. Most dogs when neutered or spayed if given a correct diet and plenty of exercise stay trim & fit.
I have seen dogs that do get coat problems once neutered or spayed that they didn't have before but its far better to cope with than say e.g your 8 year old bitch getting out by mistake after years of careful watching & being mated by the mut down the street & having problems with the pregnancy(yes i know you can get an injection after mating to stop conception but some pet people wouldn't know that) thats what happened to my grand fathers springer bitch 'Lady' when she was 11 & sadly she died due to stress of giving birth for the first time in her life, this happened like 20 years ago so not much could be done about her pregnancy then but hope & pray she wasn't in whelp but luck wasn't on our side.
So i would always say to neauter or spay a pet or even a show dog who you know for some reason or another you will never breed from,i.e outcross bloodlines not working with your own or health problem genetically but a good dog conformation wise for show,as a neautered or spayed dog can still be shown with success, then if you happen to sell on that show dog new owners are not tempted to breed from it.
Well just my motto anyway
Angie.

I recently had my bitch spayed, not just to prevent un-wanted pregnancies and to tale away the inconvienience of seasons but also because i thought she might be happier. I do not ever intend to breed from her and i feel that if I was not planning to have children would really want to have monthly periods whioch affected my moods and made me feel uncomfortable if i could avoid it? Obviously dogs are not as inconvienienced as humans are and only have about seasons every 6 months or so, but the fact that they can get grumpy and restless before a season suggests that the hormones are making them unhappy, not to mention the risks of false pregnancies (which my bitch had after her first season.) Also being a dog that loves to run off lead and spend endless hours in the garden playing, whether i am there or not, it seems unfair to deny her her usual walks where she gets to meet her doggy friends and play with them for three weeks every 6 months. I swear she thought she had done something wrong! Also she missed three weeks of her beloved training school sessions. She recovered from the operation incredibly quickly, by the third day you wouldn't think she had just had an operation! (Which made keeping her quiet for 10 days quite difficult). Of course this is just my opinion on what is best for my dog, every one is different. I do think though that vets and rescues tend to advocate neutering and spaying, which means that most first time dog owners do this because they believe this is the right thing to do.

I'm always pleased to hear of successful outcomes. Over the years I have had 5 bitches spayed. Two were fine - within a couple of days you wouldn't think anything had happened to them, and they stayed fit and well for another 12 and 14 years. One has had no medical problems since (apart from the occasional 'attack' of urinary incontinence - not serious enough to medicate), but her weight has to be constantly monitored or she would balloon, even on "starvation" rations. One got a badly infected wound and needed loads of extra antibiotics, but has since been fine. The fifth one died 3 days later. :(

You never know what's going to happen. As long as people are made aware of the possibility of disaster, and are prepared to accept it, then I respect their decision.
:)
Edited for accuracy - her bed was damp this morning :( :rolleyes:

I am with Pauline on this one.
Having been at both sides of the fence all my males will be neutered.
My old boy - sadly passed the rainbow bridge - was entire for most of his life but had to be done at 8 years old due to prostate cancer. The difference in him afterwards was amazing. He seemed much happier without this drive to constantly search for the ladies. More settled and relaxed and walks were more about having fun then sniffing out bitches. Personally I feel that being entire can cause a lot of stress if only allowed to look but not touch.
( not every male is the same though)
My rescued GSD bitch - also passed over due to an emergency spay after developing severe bleeding problems during a season when she was 9 years old. This could have been prevented had she been spayed earlier.
For the average pet owner I think neutered pets are the best option as most unwanted litters are born here.
JMO

I am undecided on the subject of neutering.

I would always have my dogs castrated. Of all the dogs in our family none of them have had changed coats, personalities or become lazy and gained weight.

The only neutered males and females I know that are overweight are due to being spoilt with unsuitable food or being given very limited exercise, but they have the sort of owners who would prefer to blame it on castration rather than their own lack of care (I'm not blaming all owners for their fat dogs, just my experience so far). I do know of one dog who's coat has changed drastically.

Having had terrible experience of an entire dog dying of prostate cancer, I will always neuter all my male dogs - there is always a risk with surgery and I would be devastated if something happened as it did to one of Pauline's dogs :-( Fortunately with dozens of different animals having had operations over many, many years and never losing one I do not work myself into a state over operations but it would be a lie to say that I don't worry at all.

Recovery from neutering has also always been very quick with all our dogs/cats. As someone else said it's more of a problem trying to stop them playing and bouncing around the room!

I do prefer to wait as long as possible before neutering and think that approx 2 yrs old gives the dog time to mature fully.

My problem with neutering is with bitches. Although all of ours were done before we got them (rescues) and in principle I agree that spaying is best to avoid any of the many things that can happen to entire bitches (pyometra, phantom pregnancy, etc). On the minus side out of our 4 bitches 3 of them have been incontinent, one of them possibly due to old age, the others possibly (and possibly not) due to spaying.

If I were to have another bitch I would find it very difficult to make a decision because I wouldn't want to keep her entire but also wouldn't want to have her spayed.

It's one of the reasons I prefer dogs to bitches, because it would be a very big decision for me to make.

Karen

PS - I will never breed dogs and don't like showing (no offence, I know you're mostly showing people!)

I show but no offence taken...I think this board is all about people who love and want the best for their dogs whatever we choose to do with them.
Archer

I am not anti neutering at all either, just don't like it being done before adulthood.

My two older bitches are both spayed at 5 to 7 years of age. Their coats have changed for the worse, but in my breed the differnce is not that apparent, they just aren't quite a waterproof and tight, and the moulting pattern is not quite so efficeint. They seem to start a moult get stuck and start again a few weeks/months later. Both have become terrible hoovers, but this may be as much age related as to do with spaying, though neither were greedy when young.

I had them both done to avoid the rislks of uterine infection at an older age when they might not recover an emergency procedure as well as when fit an relatively young. The second eldest is still as sexy as ever she was in her youth and plays trains with the entire bitches when they are in season, whereas the older one does not.

I understand that some males that are castrated as aedults if really provoked by a bitch that is in season will still mate with her, but the drive isn't as strong as in an entire male.

What I did like was knowing what the disadvatages could be as well as the advantages of them not coming in season, and could make an informed decison.

It doesn't matter what you do as long as you spend lots of time with your dogs and do something you both enjoy.

I've been to a couple of shows to have a look around and lost interest very quickly (tiny attention span! :-) ) so it's definitely not for me.