We have recently bought a West Highland Terrier from a breeder but have run into a few problems. I don't know the legal rights and wrongs of this but here are the facts:

We phoned up and asked for an 8 week old puppy, which we were assured was available.

We arranged a date to visit and turned up after a 2hr drive from home. We were presented with the puppy and certification that it was 13 weeks old. We accepted a 13 week old puppy, even though we requested 8 weeks.

The dog smelt so much we had to have the windows open all the way home. At home she appeared to be very uncertain and cowered away when she was stroked. Although she has gained confidence over the 5 days she has been at home, she can still cower when approached sometimes and is jumpy at any new noise.

The vet diagnosed an ear condition and pronounced the dog to be about 5 months old. This causes a little worry because we wanted to get 2 female puppies the same age and the other is *really* 8 week old (obtained from a different breeder and is fine!).

Given that in our opinion we have been misled as to the dog's age, presented with a dog below good condition and sustained vet bills we have stopped the cheque for payment. We have contacted the breeder to offer a reduced figure based on the original fee less vets fees, fees for stopping the cheque and a reduction because they misled us about the dog's age. The breeder responded with various slanderous accusations about my character, and questioned the legality of us stopping the cheque, saying that we were now in posession of stolen goods. They also claim the dog is 13 weeks old (although they said they might be 1 week out) and it had been examined by a vet and no ear infection. No reference was made to the smell of the dog.

We have agreed to send the breeder a vet's report to back up our claims.

However this is all causing us a load of anxiety and we don't want to return the dog. Ideally we would settle for the fee we offered to pay the breeder on the phone. We recognise that it is difficult to put an amount on how much should be knocked off the original fee because the breeder misled us about the dog's age. We are tempted to send the vet's report and a payment of the amount we have offered by recorded post and call it quitz but does anyone have any views on a better solution.

Given the state of the puppy and the misleading statments about her age we are tempted to report the breeder to trading standards or the RSPCA!

Or are we overracting?

hi, i can understand how you must be feeling its awful that dogs are kept in such a way but at the end of the day people like your breeder will keep on treating pups like this as long as people like you will buy them!! :(

Hi Ian,
I'm sorry you should have come across such a bad breeder. Certainly inform bith Trading Standards and the RSPCA. How much have you got in writing about this pup? Do you have KC registration documents for example? If so these will have a printed date of birth - your vet can then produce evidence that the pup is a different age and therefore "goods not as described".

My feeling is that you ought to make life as awkward as possible for these people - contact your solicitor, too.

Ian, Would you e-mail me privately please. I will then advise you on what action is open to you .I would also like more details.

Legally (i believe!) stopping the cheque has put you at a disadvantage.... I would now consult a solicitor asap.

The correct thing would have been to pursue a refund after the event, including any vets bills associated with the increase in age and associated problems... I really don't know what to suggest from here - sorry

Ian,

I know it is hard, but I would return the puppy to the breeder. He is she is clearly dishonest and from what you say does not take good care of their dogs. Who knows what congenital health problems this puppy may have inherited?

Stacey

Surely the kennel club would want to know about this too if he is giving out papers saying the dog was born after it really was. You have no idea really about who the parents of the dog are.
Good luck.

this is a sad tale..its a shame you hadnt come to this board, or your vet, for advice first.
The breeder may have a case to say that the pup was sold as seen.....
i doubt that a simple ear infection would be considered too relevant. dont get me wrong, this breeder is clearly irresponsible, but unless the pup was seriously maltreated the rspca would have no case against him/her. he saw that you had litle knowledge about dogs/buying a pup, and took advantage....a bad thing to do, but you also have to carry some responsibility for this.
you should have gone to see the pup at least once beforehand, seen its temperament and assessed its health. you could have refused to buy it.you knew it was older than initially said, you knew it was smelly, but you still took it home! if the breeder couldnt tell you the pups date of birth you should have been suspicious. all of this advice is clearly available in ANY puppy book, and from any vet. you failed to take reasonable precautions to protect yourself, and a court would take that into account. you will either have to pay for it, or take it back.

please learn from your mistake.... you need to go to the shops, get some books, and read as much about pups as possible. if you havent got any idea how to buy a pup, you probably wont have much idea how to rear one or two! but by reading and getting advice from your vet you can teach yourself.

Assuming this is a KC registered dog and you have the dogs paperwork, I would report the matter to the KC who will investigate the matter, and they are able to make the breeders life difficult. Have to agree you should not have stopped the cheque, you saw the dog at the time you handed over the cheque, your complaint can only be the age of the dog and the length of time it has had an ear infection. At the moment you are going on the word of one vet if you wish to take this further I would get a second opinion as soon as you can.

I would send a cheque for the reduced amount offered by you enclosing a letter setting out all the problems you have had with this puppy, the fact that the breeder sold you an older puppy despite the fact that she had assured you that it was much younger and stating in your letter that the enclosed cheque is in settlement of any further claims. If the cheque is presented (which it probably will be) it can be argued that the breeder had accepted the cheque in settlement in case further proceedings ensue by the breeder.
I wouldn't send the puppy back since by what you say about the puppy you would probably be sending her back to a life of misery.

Gosh I am so sorry for you that this has happened but I am afraid that I agree with Pinklilies. Did you vist the breeder before reserving the puppy to check out the set up first? I know they were 2 hours away but it is worth it if you can see the puppy in advance and see the dogs parents/grandparents/siblings etc, I think you can also get a pretty good idea of how a litter is reared and the breeder if you do this first. In any case now you have the puppy and if you want to keep it then you should get a lawyer to help you sort out the problem especially as the breeder told you an out and out lie over the pups age. Unfortunately there are plenty out there like him and they must be stopped. Good Luck.
Let us know what happens.
Van

i would have thought there would be a big difference in a puppy of 8 weeks and one of 5 months??. i have had 2 couples visit me already and the pups arent even born yet....so they could see my dogs and where we live. one couple made a long journey. the other couple invited us back to their house to see where pup would be living. this is my first litter and i want to get it absolutely right. i have made out my puppy contracts and they know the conditions of sale. the pups will also be vet checked and vaccinated before they leave here.

Tanni - as I was reading this - that's just what was going through my head. An 8 week old puppy looks every bit a baby a 5 month old does not. But if this was a case of totally new to puppies and naivety then perhaps you can see it happening. It is very very sad that a poor wee mite is caught up in the middle and there are clear lessons to be had from this for all prospective owners to vet the breeders first.

Put the heart away and get the head out - it's the only way to deal with unscrupulous breeders. Do the homework - find out what a puppy of your chosen breed should look like and then if the one you are looking at differs ask why. If the answer doesn't gel - walk away. This is a stable door and bolting horse scenario though - but hopefully onlookers will benefit from the experience.

Pam n the boys

Hi everyone and thank you for your replies. I thought I'd set up an email notification of replies to my posting and have only just discovered the activity my post has generated.

We have a "three generation pedigree" (non KC) which it retrospect looks worthless. It claims a birth date of 4/4/03 (which at least is written proof that they misled us).

Some of you said there is a big difference between 8 weeks and 5 months. Too true. However we were told by the breeder that the dog was 13 weeks old when we turned up. So we are looking at the difference between 3 and 5 months. Still a lot admittedly.

We are new to dog ownership but my wife has always had dogs at home when she was younger and hee parents and brothers and sister all have dogs. So we had a good pool of advice to draw on. The irony is that we bought a puppy the day before from another breeder - KC registered and with certification. We had visited this breeder when the pup was 5 weeks old to see how she was kept etc. Both breeders know each other from showing. The latter pup is absolutely fine. I can only say that hindsight is a wonderful thing and were not careful enough or not thinking on our feet when we visited the breeder that has caused this trouble. Another element that made us trust them is they claim on their web site to have been breeding for 30 years.

We are waiting for the vets to OK a report on the Westie. We then intend to send payment less vets fees, fees for stopping the cheque and the fact that pup was not as described (i.e. they misled us). The only problem is we don't know who to make it payable too! We have first but not surnames but should be able to tease the info from sonewhere on the internet.

If you have no surname - to whom did you make the first cheque out? Make it out to the same person!

I would have thought that you could contact the local Trading Standards Office - you bought - you thought - a 13 week old puppy. The vet tells you it is 5 months. The Trading Standard Authority may well have had other complaints about the same breeder and your complaint might just bring matters to a head.

Margot

Hi

I have to be honest - this is the first vet I have ever heard of who would pinpoint a dogs age so accurately - all the ones i have ever dealt with have just said "under a year" ot a more general comment like that!

Ian - has the vet agreed to confirm the dogs age in writing for you?

Chloe,

It's pretty easy for a vet to tell the difference between a 3 month old puppy and a five month old puppy - all they generally need to do is check the teeth. A three month old will still have it's baby teeth - the five month will probably have a few baby teeth and some brand new adult teeth.

Stacey

Ian

Surely you'd make the cheque payable to the same person that you made the first cheque (the stopped one) payable to!!

A pity that you've had this problem, but I think like the others that you have to accept some of the responsibility too. It's not just the breeder that caused this problem, and as you say you had collected your 8 week old pup from a breeder the day before picking up the older one, I'm surprised that you didn't see that there was more than just 5 weeks between them. :(

I'm glad that you want to keep the puppy though. Many breeders will to my knowledge charge a similar amount for a 5 month old pup as for an 8 week old pup (just for info).

I hope you manage to get it all settled quickly and that the puppy can settle into it's new life with you.

Further responses - we have found the cheque payee - my wife's writing on the counterfoil was a little illegible but we cross checked with 192.com on exact spellings.

Yes a 5 month pup might normally be priced the same as a 8 week old pup but we think we should pay less because:

- the pup wasn't in full health (ears, behaviour, condition (she was pretty smelley in the car)
- we were misled as to the pup's age (I am slightly concerned that one responder thinks that our vet may be unusual in her ability to approximate the pup's age - she went on the development of the teeth if that means anything)
- The pup had no KC documentation and therefore pedigree cannot be confirmed.

The pups are different breeds - a Westie and a Cocker Spaniel, which might excuse a little why we were too dense to guess the Westie's age.

The vet will get back to me later today (Friday) with her response concerning a report. I admit we are probably on dicey ground if we do not get this report and will probably have to think about stumping up most of the orginal fee :(

Once again many thanks for all responses. We totally accept the criticism levelled at us. We just want to keep the puppy and put an end to this!

vets do check teeth as a guide to age...but it can't be pinpointed to differentiate if only 2 mnths is disputed. its definitely not THAT accurate! :) under 5 months they have baby teeth, so that is one pointer....does your pup still have milk teeth? the milk teeth drop at 5 to 6 months. after that, the whiter the teeth the younger the dog, but is by no means accurate enough in itself to stand up in a court. im sure most experienced owners and vets would agree.

Ian - my point regarding the teeth is that even if a vet could pinpoint it exactly, I very much doubt they would stand up in court and say it - because its just not an exact science.... so I wouldn't rely on a vet being a central part of your case against this breeder, most would simply not want to be involved...
of course - i could be proved wrong.

I forgot to add this to my message Ian, a well bred westie in Scotland will cost at least £500, if you are in England I would expect to pay £600 to possibly £700 for a well bred westie. Puppy farm prices are from £250 to £350/400.

Ian, can you e mail me please,l just might be able to help you. I can send you photos of puppies that are now 11wks old and you can compare them to yours, at 5 months this pup should be a good size and look nothing like a 8 wks old puppy, I hate to say this, but, it sounds as though you have been "conned" by a puppy farmer!!!!! I would be very interested to see if I recognise any of the names on the pedigree certificate you have been given, and where you got your puppy from. also if you contact www.mediacave.co.uk/wag they will be very interested in what you have to say. Irene- Westyholm Westies

I can sympathise Ian, i (naively) bought what i believed was a pure bred border collie, but we are pretty sure that she is a cross, possibly with a smooth collie, also we were told that they were getting rid of them for a friend, but a few months later my friend bought a dog from them for £30 more, who looks exactly the same! (They said that they didn't breed them, my pup was born in Wales, yet my they told my friend that her pup was born there, sounds a bit like breeding to me!) It doesn't sound as if you are going to have much luck as the breeder doesn't sound very reasonable. You must certainly have your hands full, 2 pups within one week! One was bad enough for me, admittedly we have got another at the mo, but the collie is 17 months now, but they are still difficult at times!

In Ian's defence, bearing in mind he has accepted all critisim, it can be very confusing for the uninitiated,( who, ok, wrongly believe all breeders tell the truth), If like myself, you don't buy pups on a regular basis, I've got 2 in 14yrs, it could be quite easy to be caught out. Perhaps the dog world would be a better place if we all had the knowledge, which is posted here (oh I wish!!).

Good luck Ian

liberty :)

especially when as became apparent in a letr post - they were diffrent breeds

Sorry I missed the different breeds also..

Sadly the world of internet lets people project themselves higher and greater than they are on occasion, some excellent breeders never get near a PC due to lack of time or no PC skills and this is quite common in experienced ( 25-30 years plus) folk.

It would be great if there was some governing body who could oversee internet sites but that would be impossible.

Ian good luck let us know out come.

Pam

Hi Ian.

Gosh I have been late in seeing this one. What a mess.

I would love to know the details also. If not for future reference.

Leagally you are not allowed to stop a cheque when you have the goods but hey you won't get arrested ( well I hope not) . I personally would take the dog back for your own good and the breeds good.

If you keep it you only encourge naughty breeders.

My only concern is why did you not check the documents when you picked the puppy up. Both parties should be clear and go over the documents and could you not see a huge difference in the other puppy you had bought and this one??

Pam

Asheridgelee WHWT

Ian, could you contact me at stefan_mclachlan@yahoo.co.uk as we have also stupidly fallen for the same thing recently and I want to compare notes on wether it's the same "breeder" or not. If there is two of us complaining, it makes a better case does it not...