I have 1 male boxer whos 2 years old and I would really like to mate him with a good bitch, he's got an excellent pedigree but I'm sure were to start.I would eventually like to get my own bitch and become a breeder but I would like to see how it goes with just having a stud dog first.Any help and advise would be great thanx. Rachel

Hello Rachel, I'm sure your boy is absolutely wonderful...... to you. But unless you show him, and he becomes a consistent winner, then goes on to pass all the numerous KC/BVA health tests neccessary for the breed, you are unlikely to find an owner of any 'good bitch' to use him at stud. There are a number of top quality and Champion Boxers available, so why not continue to love your dog for the fabulous pet he is and leave it at that.
Dawn R.

Why do most dog breeders all think that no-one else is allowed to breed??
Surely they had to start somewhere?? People post on Champdogs to get help and advice on breeding and the like, so why do other dog owners find it necessary to put these people off from enjoying the breeding side of dog ownership?

If the wannabe breeder is going to do everything properly...as in endorse, make sure the dog/bitch passes all the required healthchecks, home vetting, etc etc, and the dog/bitch in question is of the correct health, age and of good pedigree, along with any other qualities that may go with whichever breed is in question... then what is the problem?

If the new breeder wants to gain experience, asks advice, reads books, goes to other breeders for help and generally does not do anything without knowing what they are doing first, and they are breeding for the love of the dog, and not for the love of money, then go ahead and good luck to them (they will need it ;))

I can't understand why a lot of breeders are so unwilling to let other people into their "world"... there are a lot of wonderful doggy people out there who would make fantastic dog breeders, and love the dogs to bits, but depending which dog breed you are in, are poo-pooed by already established breeders.

It makes me so angry as although these breeders are trying to protect the breed as such, surely the people who come on here asking for help and advice, and gaining valuable experience before beginning anything, are better than the "breeders" if you can call them that, who go ahead and breed willy nilly without knowing what they are doing. Or the people who breed for money. Or the people who create mongrels then try to con people into buying them for hunderds of pounds because they are "on the verge" of being recognised by the KC.

There are genuine people out there who love dogs, who love the breed they are in and who would make good breeders. Let them in and stop being so selfish.....

Ah, guest1, it can be very difficult to tell the difference!

When all you have to go on is a post, you have to tell the truth as you see it. Breeding is not easy, it's expensive (if done properly) and only a small percentage of dogs are good enough to breed from.

Male animals in particular can be ruined (as pets) if they are used at stud.

So we try to point people in the right direction for practical help - talk to their dog's breeder is the first. And the best way to get an honest, unbiased opinion on the quality of your dog is to show him/her a few times.

What does upset people who really love dogs are the posts from people who have mated their bitch and want advice on what happens next!!

I do agree with you JeanGenie, in showing before breeding, and would hope that no-one would consider breeding a dog that is not of a high standard, but I don't think "so why not continue to love your dog for the fabulous pet he is and leave it at that" is very fair at all.

There are a lot of genuine people out there who want to continue the love of their chosen breed, but doggy people are so "clicky" and it seems that the majority of dog breeders, patricularly those in the rare breeds, do not want anyone else to be involved in the breed apart from their little circle of friends :(

The ones that I find the worst, who, incidentally are the ones that have made me very cynical, are those who wish to breed "because their family and friends want a dog just like theirs".

Honestly, how narrowminded and short sighted can you get?

I have no problem with people who wish to breed, who have a good enough dog or bitch, have experience in their chosen breed, and are seeking advice...but shouldn't their breeder be the first call? And the basics should be learned a) from their breeder and b) from a good book and c) BEFORE mating ...rather than asking very basic questions after the mating has taken place!! :) I'm talking generally here, not in direct response to this poster.

I agree with you on that one - I hate when people walk up to me when I'm out and say "I want a dog like yours - where can I get one" and similar things... There's nothing worse than a person who would go out and get a dog just because they like the look of it, without finding out about the breed first - that really makes me angry :(

And as for people who ask after the mating... I have no time for them at all :D

Its the genuine people I feel sorry for... some breeders are so rude :(

Hi Guest 1

Do you mean rare breeds or numerically small breeds? There is a huge difference between the two as some rare breeds come much higher in the annual registration figures that breeds not on the offical KC rare breeds register.

Kate

I feel it is probably rare breeds ;)

I thought so but you never know - some people don't understand that numerically small does not always mean the breed is rare.

Kate

I mean rare breeds.
I own a Neapolitan Mastiff :)

Most breeds, especially those that are numerically small are crying out for real enthusiasts to take over as custodians of the breed, when the old guard are no longer able to.

I quote one of the top breeders in my own breed Margaret Harper, who has been active in the breed for 50 years.

This is part of an article she has written about her life with the br4eed.

"We`ve been lucky to have had many lovely Elkhounds during this half century and many have gone to novice homes and given their owners their first champion. There`s nothing Ted and I like more than seeing one of our breeding doing well for other people. I could never understand the people who have said to us over the years “I bet you wished you hadn`t let that one go”. If the dog is well cared for we share their pleasure we don`t envy it.

Bringing in fresh bloodlines whenever possible is essential in a numerically small breed such as ours is in UK. Several breeders have brought in stock and helped to keep the breed afloat. Hopefully it will now become much easier to get new blood into this country with the relaxation of quarantine laws.

The gene pool becomes very concentrated if you keep breeding back into your own line you can end up in a corner with nowhere to go. The same faults will keep re-appearing and unless you go out you can`t correct them.

In a similar way the same can be said about repeat matings. All well and good if you want to keep one of that particular pairing but if you keep doing this the breed suffers in the long run because the gene pool is reduced even more. Should a really serious problem arise a lot of stock of identical breeding could possibly be sidelined.
Winning in the show ring should be secondary to trying to improve the size of a healthy gene pool in this country especially now with far fewer litters being bred. The Kennel Club registrations were under a hundred individual puppies last year. When I came into the breed in the fifties annual registrations were over 200 and rose to stay between 300 to 400 for a long time. This is the lowest since 1925! Breeders beware!

Unless we can attract serious breeders from other breeds into the Elkhound world I can see a dangerous downward spiral because at the moment far too many good puppies are never going to be bred from. Of course we want to get them into very good homes but as some vets seem to want to rush everyone into early neutering they are virtually destroying the potential future breeding stock. If pet owners had time to think about a possible later litter and with help and encouragement from breeder and club we might see the registrations begin to rise.

Perhaps we have been too discouraging in the past with the fear of our breed becoming too popular and the spectre of puppy farms, but in this country at least it has gone too far the other way.

Too many of our devotees are not in a position to breed at all for various reasons and some of us who do will soon be too old!.......

We personally have to try to keep our numbers down as we get older and a little less active. We don`t have more than one litter a year sometimes not even that, in fact we only have one bitch of breeding age and a youngster of 12 months, R. Todd Sloane aka Toddy. She stayed because she was an only one and when the time came we couldn`t bring ourselves to part with her and that`s been a learning curve too! The rest are our pensioners from eight years to nearly fifteen. We can`t part with them they are a part of us, but of course this makes it nigh impossible to keep another youngster until someone has passed on and we don`t like to think about that.

We have rarely parted with an adult and if we did it was only to someone special whom we knew really well. We find it a real wrench letting anyone past puppy age go.

We haven`t exported for some years as we find it now too worrying not knowing how or where they are. I`m not sure whether that is hypocritical as we expect to bring in stock from overseas!

...........So hopefully a few fun years yet with this most precious breed, I can`t imagine living without them. Many loved ones I haven`t mentioned but in fifty years there have been quite a few and they are not forgotten.
Margaret Harper."

What breeders who have made a lifes work of their chosen breed don't want is dabblers and exploiters that can very quickly ruin a breeds health temperament and type by producing puppies without the breeds or the individual dogs welfare.

I found that I was welcomed with open arms whenit was clear that I had a serious interest. My oldest bitch was born in 1992 and my first litter was born only 3 years later, so I was of course reliant on other more experienced people in the breed for the knowledge needed to do things properly. I now like to think I can basically stand on my own feet as a breeder, but still constantly consult with my elders about dogs in the pedigrees of whom they have personal knowledge.

Couldn't agree with you more.

We have an even greater problem with the size of our gene pool and the number of registrations are getting lower each year (a high of around 100 in 1993 down to just 28 last year).

We would welcome any newcomers to the breed who are interested in the dogs for themselves - not just people who see it as a retirement breed!

Kate.

here here, agree with you on that one guest1 :)

I agree with all of the above.
i believe people should ask why thay are doing something and not what they can gain. i love my boxer to bits yes he is a good example of the breed but i wouldnt stud him i could not invest the time. even though i know bradleys breeder would be very proud and helpful

As mine was the first response to the original post I would like to address Guest1.

I make no apology for my response, I took the original post at face value. The guest asked for advice on her intention to find the owners of 'good bitches' to use her young male at stud. I gave my advice. I must point out that Boxers are not my breed, and as I have been 'accused' of being an established breeder, may I also say that I have spent 32 years owning and showing two gundog breeds,and I have only just 5 weeks ago had my first litter. I have spent those years learning, watching, asking for and taking advice.
It is a fact, that this Guest will have trouble getting Boxer breeders interested in this dog unless he is outstanding, and proof is sought in the show ring. The woman down the street might use him for convenience and cheapness, but it was owners of 'good bitches' that were wanted. Two inexperienced people getting their dogs together to create offspring, is a recipe for disaster.
I am more than well aware that honest, enthusiastic, dedicated future costodians are always required in any breed, but there is an apprenticeship to be served if it's to be done well, you can't rush these things.
Dawn Riddell, my name in full, Guest1.

I can honestly say that even some of the Champion male Boxers
do not get extensive stud work!!
I know of one Champion that has had 5 litters and his owner
bred 2 of those!
Numerically the Boxer is very strong and there are plenty to
pick and choose from. If it hasn't proved its 'worth' in the
showring/agility/obedience (and then some do temperament
testing too) You will be lucky to get any 'good bitches' to come
to an unknown/unproven (and potentially not health tested) dog.
Most responsible breeders look for the quality/temperament & health aspects
(note these aren't in any order of importance) of both the bitch and
the potential stud.
It took me 12 years to decide to breed my first litter of Boxers and only then
did I enter in after alot of research into the health & longevity/ temperament of
my lines and the dog had the virtues which I wanted to correct in my bitch (who was shown
and has done some useful winning, so I knew she was a good specimen) she
had also passed the relevant heart-testing and temperament testing too.
In summing up I think you also need a good mentor who can point you in the right direction
and help you to avoid the potential pitfalls along the way, and help you
to get the experience and eye to breed responsibly.
I was lucky I have a good mentor :)

boxacrazy
how do you test the temperment of the dog? just interested. I just like absorbing information from anyone boxer mad, im trying to get tickets for the boxer event on the 7 sept for my 30 birthday so i can take bradley who will be about 5 months. Mainly so i can talk to and see experienced boxer breeders trainers etc. Also to socialise Bradley.
em

The sire of my Champion bitch was top dog in the breed the previous year and a Champion several times over, and yet at 5 years old my litter was only the fourth he had sired.

He has probably only sired about as many again in the 3 1/2 years since and is 8 1/2 years old. I personally think he is one of the nicest dogs around, but of course he isn't suitable for everyone to use, as he is likely to be too closely related to some of the available bitches, which is what has held back his stud carreer. His litter sister won the seconde Group at Crufts in theree years for our breed, and her offspring have been successful too.

Hi Guest

You should also take into account the cost of Kennel Club charges if you want to 'do it' properly, I know on my dogs pedigree that it has a clause on it that only his breeder can lift that says Progeny not eligible for registration. This clause is there for a reason and must be respected. Some breeds are trying hard to control their breed, ensure that they have good homes and dont end up in a dog home get bad press and that sort of thing, as well as controling the gene pool, breed standards and inherent faults as mentioned by others on this thread. Think long and hard and have a chat to some breeders, some are only too pleased to pass on knowledge and advise but some are not. Bare this in mind when speaking to them. I have to agree with others and say speak to your breeder first they probably have the best advise. Hope this helps.