Hi everyone

After all the good advice that I have received so far I am back again and I thinkl that this may be a rather long post! :-)

Os is lots better than he used to be and everyone comments on how much more settled he seems to be now, but we do still have a few issues that I want to work through with him. Our trainer (we go to obedience 1 a week) says that we shouldn't expect miracles from Os as he is quite a dominant dog but we are working hard using Jan Fennel's methods and are beginning to see an improvement. We've also stopped letting him sleep on our bed which seems to be sinking in and making him realise he needs to earn his priviledges. (We had some very stropppy dog moments when we first stopped this!)

The problem we still have with Os is with visitors and focus on us. When visitors come around he will go to the front door and lay down behind us as we have taught him while we open the door and either let them in, or deal with them at the door. If we let people in Os goes mad: jumping up, running around, mouthing / biting their feet and also sometimes mouthing their hands (not biting). We sometimes get to the point where we have to lock him in a different room as he just won't settle. We tell people to completely ignore him until he calms down but it is difficult when a dog is nibblig your feet! We tend to try and keep him close to us and tell him no when he does something naughty but we aren't seeing any signs of improvement. He can calm right down and then all of a sudden start all over again and all we want is a dog that we can not have top concentrate on all the time when we have people over.

The other issue is getting him to focus on us. At training, on walks and also if he has seen something interesting generally he is impossible to get focused back on us. He totally ignores us and goes to investigate (typical Shepherd!). We are working on his recall which was non existant but is getting better but still don't seem to be able to hold his attention at training at all.

So does anyone have any ideas or suggestions for either point? Thanks everyone!

Have you tried the 'watch' command? I have learnt to do this with my WGSD and he is getting much better.
Start off by getting the slightest bit of eye contact. You sit him down put the treat in front of your eyes and say 'watch', once he looks you right in the eyes praise him and give him the treat even if it is only for a split second. Eventually move the treat away and when you say 'watch' he should know that he needs to look you in the eyes to get a treat.

If you do this when you are out, if you see a dog near by and your dog seems interested get his attention by making a silly noise or something, say 'sit' and 'watch'.

This is the command that should keep his attention on you and he will ignore distractions eventually.

But take some treats out with you as he will be expecting a prize for a little while.

Hope this helps
Zoe

Thanks Zoe

We do use the watch command already but I am not scared to say that it could probably do with a little more work!

The other point that I forgot to mention is that we are interested in doing agility with him but our trainer has said not to start with Os as it will make him worse....

I tend to make use of childgates, so that if we have visitors, my exciteable Terv knows to go "in the other room" and view them from the window. She is then ignored by anyone invited in, and ideally visitors come into the kitchen first where we all have a drink. By then the dog has calmed down and not so exciteable, and then when we enter the living room, she is given something absolutely irresistible such as a stuffed Kong and she promptly ignores everyone and gets stuck in.

I feel it may be difficult to manage the situation by the door until he is older and calmer; would you consider using gates or even a crate (give him a kong in there) until he has calmed down (which may take an hour) and then let him out calmly.

It is also a good idea to teach the "Settle" command, this means putting the lead on, and the dog in a down, put your foot on the lead near the collar end. Give the dog a chew, praise and say "Settle", if he tries to get up he will find he can't. Start with 2 minutes and slowly build up over the weeks, and in time (but dont try it too early) he will Settle when you say and stay there until he gets released :)

There are lots of ways to sort this out, I just chose the easiest I must admit!!! :D

Something else to try is a 'houseline' - simply a short light weigh lead or a piece of washing line attached to his collar. You can use this to manouver him when visitors arrive and ensure he greets them correctly (sitting and not being fussed until he IS sitting), it could also be used to manouver him away from visitors he is pestering and guide him towards what you do want him to do instead (lie on his own bed?) perhaps using the command 'settle' - the reward him when he does with a satisfying chew or stuffed Kong perhaps.....
By using the houseline you can avoid being confrontational with him (which can lead to aggression) and at the same time teach him what is required.

Something else to try is a 'houseline' - simply a short light weight lead or a piece of washing line attached to his collar. You can use this to manouver him when visitors arrive and ensure he greets them correctly (sitting and not being fussed until he IS sitting), it could also be used to manouver him away from visitors he is pestering and guide him towards what you do want him to do instead (lie on his own bed?) perhaps using the command 'settle' - the reward him when he does with a satisfying chew or stuffed Kong perhaps.....
By using the houseline you can avoid being confrontational with him (which can lead to aggression) and at the same time teach him what is required.

Hi, Jayne

We have the same problem with our 10mnth old spaniel x (Lucy). I was wondering how you taught Os to lay down behind you when someone comes to the door as Lucy just goes nuts and jumps up at the door barking until one of us holds her collar and then struggling to let visitors in or having to shut her out the back door where she does exactly the same thing. Any advice would be very appreciated.

Kind regards

Meryl

hi
when he's busy doing something go up behind him and say his name quietly but firmly then when you've got him wagging his tail like mad give him a treat what he will learn from this is when he responds to his name he gets something nice that way its a start to being able to call him away from the visitors also don't let him into the room til the visitors have been there at least 20 mins giving him chance to calm down and if he misbehaves but him straight back out without saying a word to him repeat this over and over until he gets the message.For now don't let him greet them at the door with you as he 's making sure he gets all the attention.

jackie

This isn't a dig or anything, but in what way did your trainer say agility would make him worse?
And also why is he considered a dominant dog?

Jo

Thanks everyone.

Meryl - to get him used to laying down we put him on a lead to begin with. One of us went outside and knocked and the other one went to answer the door. We tell him to lay down behind us and then go to open the door. If he moves we close the door again. It's okay when it's someone we know at the door but if it's a stranger you have to call to them to 'Hang On' as otherwise they think you are very strange!! ;-). We are still doing this now - a few months down the line as sometimes he forgets himself.....

Jo - Os is not very focused on us at the moment which we are trying to work on. He gets very distracted by other dogs at training and we are working on building the bond between us and improving his reactions to us. Our trainer says that agility would make him worse as dogs tend to get very wound up and excited and we would not be able to control him???? I'm not 100% convinced but I can see their point a little.

In terms of why is he dominant I guess its more of the above. He is more interested in other dogs than us (not people necessarily) and is a typical GSD. He will try his luck with us and bark if he doesn't want to do something (although not all the time). We have tried clicker training which he paid no attention to whatsoever and this seemed to convince our trainer that he had dominant tendancies. I think that it is also related to his attitude to visitors etc. To be honest I would agree that if you give him an inch he'll take a mile and we are working on that. He is 21 months now and as a GSD we really need to get on top of him :-). By the way I'd appreciate hearing anyone's opinion on whether they think he's dominant / what affect agility would have on him.

Thanks again
Jayne

Jayne
Thanks for your reply. Anything is worth a go. :)

Regarding agility, Lucy's trainer said that with doing agility most people aquire a better relationship with their dog and it is more fun than basic training so thus the dog should be more focused.
Anyway good luck and thanks again.

Kind regards

Meryl

I think it sounds like your trainer might have been a bit quick to jump to the 'dominance' conclusion (I've never met your dog so I can't say for definite)
My opinion is that dogs do what's rewarding for them, and he's obviously found ways of amusing himself without you, so probably isn't as focused on you as he should be (I'm sure he loves you, but he probably thinks other dogs are more exciting)
I don't think that a dogs dominance level would really affect how they respond to clicker training, I have clicker trained my cat to do a few things and she IS dominant!!!
I would persevere with the clicker training, maybe using really tasty treats, sometimes a game, and whatever else he likes, if the rewards are really varied and exciting, he's soon going to realise that you are more fun than he previously thought!!

I think agility might be really good to strengthen your relationship, especially if you put a lot of work into the control. The action is rewarding in itself. If you tell a dog to jump, he jumps and then you reward him, then that's a really pleasant experience for him, because the jumping in itself is rewarding, so he's far more likely to do it, and learn that doing what you ask is a good thing.

He needs to really understand what you mean when you are training him. A dog that doesn't obey isn't necessarily being dominant, he could be thinking 'well I don't really want to do that, nothing particularly good happens when I do that, and I want to go over there and flirt with that dalmation'
Sometimes we label a dog as being disobedient, when really they don't entirely understand what we want them to do. To be disobedient, the dog has to know what we mean when we say 'sit' or whatever, understand that it is a command, not a suggestion, and make a deliberate decision that they're not going to do it. I don't think it's as common as we assume!
Dogs are good at understanding something in one context, but thinking it means something different in another (this actually works well for us like when people say 'down' for training and then 'get down' when they're on the sofa! People who come and stay with me still don't get how that could confuse a dog, especially since mine know what they're trying to say and comply anyway!!)
When I learnt how powerful context is on learning, I applied it to my own dogs and realised that one would only sit, if I was standing up when I told him to! He just didn't understand if I was sitting down.

I think it's better, and usually more accurate to say that if a dog doesn't do what you ask, the first thing you should do is assume that he doesn't entirely understand.

Also, a dog will not do what you say without learning that it's more rewarding for him to do that. If the situation is that he would rather play with other dogs than you, then teach him that in order to play with other dogs, he first has to recall to you, do something simple, such as a sit, and then you can release him to play.

What I would do, is visit another trainer for a different opinion, I'm not saying to switch, but sometimes one person only sees the things that fit in with their theory (it's human nature) and a fresh pair of eyes will see something different.

Good luck though, he sounds like a lovely dog, just needs a bit of direction!

Jo

Hi Jayne

One way of getting your dog more focused on you and see you as more interesting than playing with other dogs is to play with them yourself and make sure you are the most interesting thing in their world!

You most probably have done this before (I don't know how long you've had Os and if it was since puppyhood) but it might be worth re-visiting.

Have Os on a lead (in the garden, house or park) and play with him at your feet. Get him really excitied about the toy you have in your hand. If he has a special one that he's really into - use that. If he's not really into toys (Shepherds are usually into balls) tease him with one. Hide it behind your back, throw it up and you catch it, speak to him all the time with things like 'what have I got?', 'do you want it?', 'where is it?' etc. When he's really interested throw the toy, within lead distance, let him get it and reel him back to you with the lead. Give loads and loads of praise and immediately throw the ball out again. Repeat several times but always finish the game when your dog is still enjoying playing and wants more. Take the toy and PUT IT AWAY UNTIL NEXT TIME YOU DECIDE TO PLAY WITH HIM.

Progress to working off-lead. If your dog then runs off with the toy you need to go back to playing on lead again. Nothing establishes a relationship with a dog better than play and if your dog gets more fun with you than he does any where else why would he need to look elsewhere when he's with you. It does get your dog to focus on you - I've used it with my own rescue dog (he'd had several homes in his first year and didn't know what a relationship was, he just ran wild) and used it in training other handlers with their dogs.

In the early stages you may even have to take an article with you when you go to your training classes as an attention getter/motivator but then slowly taper the use off when required.

Just as an after thought, I can see why your trainer doesn't want to start agility yet. If done to obedience standards the handler needs a lot of control over the dog. The dog doesn't just run around the course willy-nilly and should only jump, go through, over, down etc on handler command. If a dog is not focused on his handler he is likely to become over-stimulated and over-excitied and therefore more out of control. However, I once worked with a trainer having problems with a dog who resisted every known ploy to walk on a lead without pulling his owner's arm out of his socket. Every training class resulted in the dog being corrected from beginning to end. I suggested that instead of working in such a negative atmosphere it might be worth trying something that the dog could/would do and praising for that in the hope that we'd achieve some positive result. We introduced him to some agility equipment (whilst on a lead) and walked him over the see-saw (lots of concentration needed there) and the 'A' frame (from working trials events) etc and did get a much more positive response from the dog. This was done as a 'private' class though - not in a group class - as it did initially require two trainers and the handler to ensure the dog remained steady and safe at the first introductions to equipment.

Good Luck

Just a quick update for everyone and also to say thanks for all your advice and help.

We have been working hard on clicker training every day (short, sharp bursts), playing one on one with the toy as Meryl suggested and also taken on board all the other advice we've been given and I think that we can see a difference.

Os is now focused on us a bit more, we had training last night and we still have some way to go but he was looking at us when he needed to and was generally happier to be paying attention than he used to be. The motivational toy trick has begun working too - we are using a ball on a rope - and as soon as he sees it he comes over for a game. We worked on recalls a little last night and he was 100% than he used to be. Still on a training line but at least he came back to us!! So, now we will try him off lead in controlled situations.

We have visitors coming over tomorrow and I have been using the Training Disks so we intend to put him out for 30 minutes or so until he has calmed down and then let him be with us with a nice tasty bone / Kong. If he plays up we will try the disks to see what kind of a reaction he has.

Agility wise I think that we are going to give it a go. We have found a local club through friend’s recommendations and are going to go along and have a look. I think that Os is getting a little bored of basic obedience so a change of pace might suit him! I think that we will play it by ear but the improvement in the last few weeks makes me think that he will be okay.

Thanks everyone!!
Jayne