Doogle, I have to take issue with the following statement:

"The following is a common event for many dogs; If a dog starts to smell at stinging nettles it receives a NEGATIVE or PUNISHMENT (they both mean the same). Because the event is negative the behaviour is extinguished, no animal repeats a behaviour which has negative consequences for it, the behaviour in other words has no reward so it does not persist."

Firstly, negative reinforcement and punishment do not mean the same thing. Negative reinforcement is when something bad is happening, and the animal has to do something to prevent it. This was demonstrated by Skinner when he had rats with an electrified floor, and pressing a lever turned off the current. That is negative reinforcement.
Punishment is something that comes after the behaviour, and is usually too far away from the behaviour to have an effect. This is true in humans as well as in dogs, we all know that smoking causes cancer and other nasties, but as these happen so far after the cigarette it usually doesn't work, although taking a chemical which induces sickness when you smoke does work, and that is aversion, when something nasty happens during, or immediately after the behaviour.

If 'no animal repeats a behaviour which has negative consequences to it' then you would only need to use an electric shock collar once, but as aversion therapy is often used again and again, it clearly isn't working.

With the rats in the electrified floor experiment, Skinner also discovered that if they couldn't control the stimulus, they would very soon give up and stop trying (learned helplessness, since you seem so keen on jargon), so if you use an electric collar on your dog, or any other kind of severe aversion, unless your timing is absolutley, consistently 100% perfect, you'll condition a state of learned helplessness in that dog.

If the dog is using aggression as a behaviour to get rid of other dogs, the most effective way to get rid of that aggression is to show the dog that other dogs are not scary, and remove the motivation for the behaviour, rather than by becoming fixated on the behaviour itself. Yes that takes more time than an electric shock collar, but it's more effective, less dangerous, and let's be honest, far far kinder.

I'm very intrigued as to why you think that reward-based methods lead to aggression. The way we live with dogs has changed a great deal, dogs are no longer allowed to wander the streets unsupervised, and as a lot of people choose not to walk their dogs we have a country full of underexercised, under socialised dogs, which is a recipe for disaster.

I would like to know what evidence you have to show that dogs trained positively are more aggressive, and if you have it, I would also like conclusive proof that one caused the other. There are so many factors, perhaps people with aggressive dogs are motivated to find out more about animal behaviour, and discover the merits of positive, reward based training themselves?

I will concede that positive training methods can cause problems if not done correctly, but I don't concede that those problems can be anywhere near as severe as problems caused by 'traditional' training methods done incorrectly.

regards,
Jo

Hi Everyone!

After reading all these posts and replies, I felt that some people out there may have got a distinctly negative picture of the British Institute of Professional Dog Trainers (BIPDT). I was lucky enough to be on one of their courses last year in Buckinhamshire and just thought that I would make some points a bit clearer. Before they accept you on to week long intensive couse, you have to fill in a form stating what experience you have had training dogs , taking classes etc. The BIPDT

Sorry chaps- my little boy pressed the send button while I was in mid flow!. Any way as I was saying, not everyone who wants to attend these courses are suitable. You need more than 6 weeks of training your own dog to apply. I have had dogs in competition for a couple of years (IN working trials-not obedience!) and had been instructing for a good year before I did the course. There are 4 levels to work for, 2nd, 1st, Graduate and Advanced. I worked incredibly hard all week and I was awarded a 2nd and I was pleased to get it!. Just because you attend the course, this does not mean that you are awarded anything, a number of people on my course came away with no award!(Although they did get 100's of ideas from other people). If you are awarded a 2nd, like me, you cannot say to anyone that you are a member, or even an associate member!.
You can oft to be affiliated. You have to take exams, both oral and practical in front of specially invited judges from your chosen interest (Obedience, Working Trials or Agility).
Anyway, sorry to go on about it, I'm not normally one to speak my mind but I just thought that they had been given a bit of a rough deal!!