Hi

You responded to my post about my aggressive staff pup who doesnt like other dogs. That post has since been removed as your reply seemed to spark off alot of arguments amongst other members. You never got around to telling me how you would deal with my puppy but other members have told me that you advise the use of electric collars. I didnt know such things existed and dont much like the sound of them, so I did a bit of research on the web about them Reguarding the use of electric collars I looked at a website that sells them and in the case of aggression behaviour it clearly states, and I quote:

"Q Can I use the collar to stop my dog from being aggressive?

A No. This system should never be used with any type of aggressive behaviour. "

I feel that you ought to be aware of this before recommending it to new dog owners like myself, as I am reliant on the advice of others due to my own lack of training skills and experience.

I am now looking into finding a new trainer seeing as my present one suggested my pup may have to be PTS! She is after all only 6 months old and lovely with people. In the mean time I shall keep her on the lead and possible buy a mussle until I can find someone willing to help me to train her with humane, positive training methods.

In the mean time, I would welcome any advice people can offer me. Ruby did go to classes but following being almost attacked by another dog she became very nervous and now aggressive towards most dogs. My trainer has sapped my confidence by suggesting that she may have to be PTS or re-housed as she feels aggression is just a part of her nature.

I will NOT put a lovely and healthy dog to sleep however as I feel sure we can do something as she is so young, although I do NOT intend to resort to the use of electric collars either.

That said, thank you Doogle for trying to help, I feel sure that your intentions were good but it is not a method that I would agree with personally.

Hi Ladymojo, i am so glad that you will not use one of those dreadful things find your self a good dog club one that will take time with you and your dog you do need to use a head collar the one i would say which would work well for you is the DOGMATIC they do have a web page it isnt cheap about £25. but it will work better on your baby use treats as well dont keep telling pup off and try not to string pup up to much when you see another dog just walk past keeping dogs head looking at you and you will have a great treat in your hand to give when you have gone by, sorry but i have alot of problem dogs come to me, just be firm and fun, if you need to ask amore please do lots of luck Jackie.

Just a few quick thoughts ( i should be cooking diinner!!) but could you have a chat with your trainer and say you have been really upset about her remark? She may have said this to try and impress upon you how important it is to work hard with your youngster over the next few months and not have realised how it came across to you. I feel she should know perhaps how you now feel as the owner of a young pup :( I can imagine i would feel the same.

Also, no matter how well pup classes are run, if a nervous little dog is scared by another it may well cause problems. My thoughts are that this could have happened anywhere and not necessarily just with your current trainer......if you had been at a different club it may have happened there. It's a shame it happened at all but you sound such a sensible and dedicated owner i really think you have a good chance of getting good results. I wish you luck in finding a club you feel happy with and we are all here to help :)

Best wishes
Lindsay

Thanks Lindsey, my trainer is phoning me in the next few days so I will certainally discuss things with her :)

Helen

Thank you so much, I have had a look at the dogmatic collars and they look ok. I had been concerned about a mussle and this looks like it could be the answer in the mean time whilest we are busy training the little thing. She is not as bad when we are out, only tends to growl at big dogs if they get a bit too close.

When we were at the club she even growled at dogs in the far distance!

Thanks again for the good advice.

Helen :)

ladymojo
You responded to my post about my aggressive staff pup who doesnt like other dogs. That post has since been removed as your reply seemed to spark off alot of arguments amongst other members.

Doogle
Yes I saw them, it seemed very odd to see such aggression and comments I did not understand amongst people on what is nothing more than a site designed to pass info about nothing more than dog training, however, each individual represents their personality in their own way.

ladymojo
You never got around to telling me how you would deal with my puppy but other members have told me that you advise the use of electric collars.

Doogle,
I never mentioned electric collars, I thought your trainer was dangerous and still think that I also think there are a lot of similar trainers around belonging to commercial organisations such as APDT and APBC who are causing aggression in many dogs which have attended classes run by either them or classes using what they call positive methods and do not belong to those commercial organisations, that is what I commented on and tried to point some things out, not for my benefit but for yours.

ladymojo
I didnt know such things existed and dont much like the sound of them, so I did a bit of research on the web about them

Doogle
I know two people who use them these days, they get good results and their dogs are fine with them but I only heard of them when I came on the web some two years ago and I haven‘t really thought much about them.
If I get a young dog when my dog gets older (he’s 10 so maybe within this next year) I will certainly find out more about electric collars and maybe buy one and learn about their use but I trained my current dog is long ago so I don’t need to train him again.

ladymojo
Reguarding the use of electric collars I looked at a website that sells them and in the case of aggression behaviour it clearly states, and I quote:
"Q Can I use the collar to stop my dog from being aggressive?
A No. This system should never be used with any type of aggressive behaviour. "

Doogle
That’s interesting, I have seen the same thing on another web site, I use a long line and have some idea they work on similar principles except they are never ending and the dog can‘t see them, or at least a huge range. You cannot stop the kind of aggression your Staff has with a long line either, it is a specialized program.

ladymojo
I feel that you ought to be aware of this before recommending it to new dog owners like myself, as I am reliant on the advice of others due to my own lack of training skills and experience.

Doogle,
I find that a strange comment as I never even mentioned electric collars and could neither recommend them or say do not use them because I do not know enough about them or their use.

ladymojo
I am now looking into finding a new trainer seeing as my present one suggested my pup may have to be PTS! She is after all only 6 months old and lovely with people.

Doogle
If a so called trainer told you to PTS that’s exactly what I think you should do, it was only that which prompted me to reply at all. I noticed in your deleted post that someone mentioned BIPDT they sort of implied that was the organisation she belonged to, it stands for British Institute of Professional Dog Trainers Ltd, Stockport. It is a limited company registered at company house, registration number 3949096 and BIPDT is a trade mark name.

It is two PLC’s one is a security company and the other sells dog instructor courses, to buy a dog instructor course they expect you to have the basics, by basics they accept anyone who has had a pet dog of any kind and has done 6 weeks or so obedience course at some point in the dogs life (or late dog if you no longer have one).

You buy a 6 weeks course from them and at the end of it you can say you’re an approved member of the British Institute of Professional Dog Trainers and start a business influencing clients with the title, alternatively you can start your own Limited Liability company and give yourself a similar title for several hundred pounds less.

ladymojo
In the mean time I shall keep her on the lead and possible buy a mussle until I can find someone willing to help me to train her with humane, positive training methods.

Doogle
For a new dog owner you have learned very quickly, I do take it you understand the that the word “Positive” is a technical term and does not mean anything like the normal use of the word (punishment and reward are also technical terms and are not meant in the same way as everyday use). E.G. your dogs aggressive behaviours are positive behaviours which is why they have started getting more frequent.

ladymojo
When we were at the club she even growled at dogs in the far distance!

Doogle
This is the beginning of predatory aggression positive behaviour and reinforced each time making recurrence inevitable..

ladymojo
my trainer is phoning me in the next few days so I will certainally discuss things with her

Doogle
I doubt very much if she is any worse or better than other positive trainers. I am glad you are keeping her on the lead, especially as she is getting older quickly, that way it others dogs and owners are spared any problems. Good Luck.

Admin edited

I understand ladymojo is looking for constructive advice regarding her dog. You seem to just "muddy the waters" without offering anything positive. I really want to be very rude to you; however manners, politeness and respect were instilled in me from an early age.

liberty

Admin edited

Vey well put Liberty,couldn't have said it better myself

[deleted]

liberty
Do you really need to be so offensive with your comments????

Doogle
I really do not see anything I have said as offensive, I merely wrote when I read that yet another new owner had been told to consider putting their dog in rescue or PTS by yet another dog which has become aggressive as the result of positive training by a positive trainer.
I consider warning owners about the dangers of these people ( as if the results are not self evident ) is important information to give to any new dog owner,

I still think that and I also think it is very constructive that people are informed in order for them to make a more informed opinion.

But then Ladymojo was saying I use or recommend electric collars when in fact I not only know nothing of electric collars, I have never really thought about them at any length apart from the odd occasion I have come accross them on the net, let alone recommend them,

I think you should understand Liberty that when people are under stress and worry they do sometimes imbibe a little and I was asking in the hope Ladymojo might write with a little more clarity of mind so a reply would reflect the real situation.

I had in fact emailed someone I know of (but have only met a couple of times and know by reputation more than personally) who specializes in aggressive Staffs and other fighting breeds, but she sent a short reply and says she no longer takes dogs from positive classes.

No matter how you perceive I believe my input is very informative and constructive, Lindsay said that cases of behaviourists and other positive trainers, without any recognised qualifications whatsoever, telling people to PTS dogs which are (a) healthy (b) beyond their training ability has been going on for at least 16 years and as can be seen by this case is quite acceptable by these so called trainers.

Yes your posts can be constructive and informative. Please can we keep them that way and that applies to anyone who joins in this discussion. Flaming and personal attacks will not be tolerated.

"Flaming and personal attacks will not be tolerated. "

Thanks admin - and not just with regard to this post.

Stacey

Wow! Doogle, are you accusing Ladymojo of being drunk?

Jeangenie
Wow! Doogle, are you accusing Ladymojo of being drunk?

Doogle

1. This is a S-I-X month old Staff BITCH ( known not to fight as readily as males, applies to all breeds), the owner is new to dogs.

2. Like an increasing number of dogs, which are less than quiet and naturally easy to handle, and which go to positive classes and trainers such as this trainer, many dogs from positive training classes end up manifesting aggression, sometimes to owners, sometimes to other dogs or both.

In this case at S-I-X months of age the person it was taken to for training has suggested it is PTS or put in rescue, seemingly not an uncommon situation but nevertheless a real one in this case.

3. People should be made aware of these things first by trainers, this is not the case (as can be seen by this post) and this particular post highlights that.

4. At six months the dog is not only manifesting defence aggression it is starting to manifest PREDATORY aggression a VERY rare behaviour in dogs of this age, even six month old males of a fighting breed.

5. The behaviour is reward behaviour, if it is reinforced by the owner giving a positive stimulus at or inevitably (I say inevitable because of the drive strength of defence aggression) after the behaviour has occurred the aggression will be reinforced by a secondary positive stimulus.

6. The owner, Ladymojo, has become preoccupied with electric collars which no one mentioned except a few regulars on here and has so far not said why.

7. My very firm advice is that Ladymojo takes this dog to a breed specialist trainer who specializes in aggression of this breed specifically and no other sort of trainer unless one cannot be found, and this needs to be done as A MATER OF URGENCY. That is what I recommend.

8. It is a point to note that Ladymojo was hesitant about getting a Staff in the first place because they are a fighting dog. I think it is usefull to others who contemplate the same to ensure that proper speialized training facilities are in place BEFORE getting one.

9. What do you recommend for this owner and dog Jeangenie?

But surely you're not answering Jeangenie's question? What has your reply got to do with the original question? :)

Doogle, you wrote:
"When people are under stress and worry they do sometimes imbibe a little and I was asking in the hope Ladymojo might write with a little more clarity of mind"

What Ladymojo wrote seemed quite clear and not open to misinterpretation to me. And no, I haven't been 'imbibing' either!
:)

Doogle - very clear you obviously know very little about staffords! They are just as feisty, if not more so than the males!

Sweeping generalised statements are your forte though aren't they? That and being wrong...

No "Doogle", I most certainly did not say that trainers without any recognised qualifications have been telling people to put dogs to sleep for 16 years as you well know.

I referred to a quote you posted from another board where a lady was told to put her dog to sleep 16 years ago, by a behaviourist. I was putting you right LOL :D:

I certainly did n't refer to anyone in the plural, please get your facts correct at least :rolleyes:

Not having seen the dog, how can you be so sure the dog is manifesting predatory aggression? Are you an expert on aggression? If you get this wrong and the owner follows your advice it could have very sad consequences. I walk with a rehab group on occasion so have seen lots of dog dog aggression, but I would never come on here and give definite advice, only general advice.

Lindsay

Lindsay On 03.07.03 09:00 wrote
I am sure many of us have improved our knowledge and changed our methods from many years ago

On 03.07.03 09:00 , Lindsay wrote
I certainly did n't refer to anyone in the plural, please get your facts correct at least

Doogle wrote
I interpreted the use of the word “US” to be plural.

What do you suggest for this owner and dog as positive training has clearly caused serious problems?

"Us" meaning all of us - you, me, everyone. Not just trainers.

I edited the above post to say that i don't believe it is right to give advice on dog dog aggression unless the dog and owner have been seen. It's OK to give general advice, which most of us do, but not individual advice. My advice would be to contact her trainer first, which she is infact doing.

I get a little weary of your theories that positive training causes aggression in all the dogs trained this way. My dog must be absolutely vicious by now then.

Tell me: do you think the dog should have been isolated, not put near other dogs? Or gone to a different class? If the dog was showing nervousness this was going to happen somewhere, it isn't anything, IMO, to do with the class. If Ladymojo had gone to a different class with a different trainer, who was not themember of the organisation you so dislike, it could have happened exactly the same :(

Lindsay

I'm totally lost with this thread - maybe we should start training trainers!!!

Lindsay wrote,
I get a little weary of your theories that positive training causes aggression in all the dogs trained this way.

Doogle wrote
The main emphasis of the above statement is “ALL DOGS”

On 29.06.03 09:48 GMT Doogle wrote
“The %‘s of aggression in positive, so called, trained dogs is common and rising, both against other dogs and people, positive training causes aggression to develope in dogs with a tendancy towards it.”

On 03.07.03 At:53 GMT
Doogle wrote
many dogs from positive training classes end up manifesting aggression, sometimes to owners, sometimes to other dogs or both.

Doogle writes.
At NO point have I said ALL dogs, the combinations of high rank and fighting drives must be present in the dog and it is these dogs which will show a high occurrence of aggression if they are not dealt with by a competent trainer, positive classes are a risk for these dogs as the results show.
*************************************************************************

On 03.07.03 09:00 GMT bobo wrote
But surely you're not answering Jeangenie's question?

Doogle wrote
1. In order for the original question to remain clear and not get lost it appears necessary to keep clarifying things, such as in this example.

2 Bobo wrote
What has your reply got to do with the original question?

On 03.07.03 08:53 GMT Doogle wrote
7. My very firm advice is that Ladymojo takes this dog to a breed specialist trainer who specializes in aggression of this breed specifically and no other sort of trainer unless one cannot be found, and this needs to be done as A MATER OF URGENCY. That is what I recommend
**********
The above is my reply, what is yours?

Crickey , you really sound familiar :)

Doogle......... Shutup

02.07.03 10:30 GMT Ladymojo wrote
In the mean time, I would welcome any advice people can offer me

On 03.07.03 11:17 Melodysk wrote, with a midlands dialect
Crickey , you really sound familiar

03.07.03 11:39 GMT..brackenrigg wrote
Doogle......... Shutup

***********************
Doogle wrote

To give some clarity to the meaning of positive and negative, reward or punishment in the context of dog training.

If an animal performs a behaviour, such as (to keep it relevant to you and others who might be experiencing this) such biting or rolling in dog muck, in the technical and REAL meaning of the terms REWARD or POSITIVE (they both mean the same thing) the animal is performing what is called REWARD or POSITIVE behaviour.

The terms were originally phrased in the technical meaning by a human behaviourist psychologist called Bruffus Skinner, I think he first published them in the 1930’s at some point but it might have been earlier.

It works like this: If any animal starts a behaviour and, in human terms, it likes it then the likelihood of recurrence is high, the behaviour to the animal is REWARDING it or is POSITIVE

The following is a common event for many dogs; If a dog starts to smell at stinging nettles it receives a NEGATIVE or PUNISHMENT (they both mean the same). Because the event is negative the behaviour is extinguished, no animal repeats a behaviour which has negative consequences for it, the behaviour in other words has no reward so it does not persist.

Taking this back to biting being a reward for the animal ( it wants to do it, does it, and enjoys the event) the animal perceives the event as a REWARD or POSITIVE behaviour.

When faced with a choice of two or more rewards when a behaviour is in the process of manifesting the dog will perform the behaviour which the DOG ITSELF perceives as the GREATEST REWARD to it, if it reaches a point where the dog stops the behaviour ( attacking or threatening) and it then receives a second reward it associates the second reward with performing the behaviour.

Therefore the dog learns that if it bites it gets rewarded for it so a behaviour is carried out both for the primary reward (biting) and the secondary reinforcer, whatever, if ever, you offer it after the event.

I hope that gives some very basic clarity to what reward or positive and negative and punishment mean.

If you find a breed specialist who deals with aggression in Staffs she/he will know all the things not to do and all the things to do and go straight into it, therby eliminating trial and error attempts which can make things worse.

.

On 03.07.03 11:17 Melodysk wrote, with a midlands dialect
Crickey , you really sound familiar


I don't think so :)

I may *live* where I do ...but I haven't always LOL

Hey Mel, what is up with the Midland dialect? Dow yow like it? It aye that bad! :D :D
Me being from the Midlands now in North Lincs - and boy do I get some stick for my accent!!! ha ha ha

I don't think I said there was anything wrong with it :) I just said that *I* don't talk with one ;) My dad was in the RAF so my accent tends to be an odd mix of RAF English / West London with a touch of Lincs thrown in for good measure ;)

Melody :)

Superficially plausible, Doogle, but far too general. "Negatives" can easily be outweighed by "Positives", as evidenced by the dog whowill ignore pain from nettles/brambles etc to retrieve itsball; or the dog who would rather be scolded (fear and distress) than be ignored.

For a dog who is fearful of others and reacts aggressively, the 'reward' is not the aggressive behaviour - it is in fact the cessation of the trigger, ie the removal of the other dog from its view. It doesn't matter whether it is taken away, or the other dog is. However this doesn't solve the problem of the behaviour. Nor will punishing the dog when it reacts to seeing another dog. Two negatives don't make a positive! The added negative (the punishment) will reinforce the first (the fear of the other dog).

And you still haven't clarified whether you think Ladymojo was drunk!

Unfortunately the waters are getting all muddied again ...but yes, as JG says in a fearful dog the reward is indeed the removal of the trigger - that is why on a basic everyday level dogs enjoy chasing the postman,' cos he keeps going away <g> Not a good example as not all dogs are scared of postie but just to illustrate a point.

"Doogle" I will just say this. We all have ideas on training and we don't all agree - even on here, as others previously pointed out, we have many differnt opinions. But I remember you couldn't understand how i taught a Leave - you thought i was teaching a Sit and ridiculed my post; i didnt bother to correct you. It was funny really. My Leave works excellently. But the point is, it would be nice if you could respect the fact that plenty of people from all walks of life know and havew experience of dogs - not just one person !!!

For my money i don't think Ladymojo was drunk :D

Lindsay

Ladymojo's post was not that of someone having one over the eight. I did make reference to this in my previous post, but it was edited by Admin (fair enough).
I got the impression Doogle was trying to be a tad annoying ;)

liberty

So ignore them. If you ignore them they go away ;-)

That can be easier said than done - especially when they leave links to discredit a highly respected and popular dog trainers reputation :( Sadly some people may actually believe that c**p. Can only hope that posts like that are deleted in time :)
Lara x

I'm being good and ignoring them all ;)

I have removed it Lara. Please, in future email us.

ok :)
Lara x

I cant believe my post has caused such alot of arguments, lol. Can I just set the record straight and confirm that I most deffinately was NOT drunk when I posted my cry for help with Ruby. Im no J.K. Rowling I know but I dont understand what you mean Doogle when you say I am not writing clearly, I thought I made it quite clear what my problem is.

I am aware that you didnt bring up the subject of electric collars, other people posted me to tell me that is what you tend to recommend, and I accept the fact that I perhaps should not have assumed you were going to recommend one, so I apologise for jumping to conclusions.

You made a comment that I was hesitant to buy a staff due to their being a fighting breed...um, not true actually. What I SAID was that due to their reputation as a dog who can be aggressive towards other dogs I enrolled her for obedience training classes, partly to socialise her with other dogs in the hope that it would make her comfortable in the company of other dogs, it backfired on me when a little mongrel attacked Ruby and seemed to turn Ruby into a dog hating pup. I never said that I was hesitant to get a staff, or else I simply would not have got one.

I chose a staff due to their reputation as a good family dog, great with kids and very people orientated.

Since leaving the classes Ruby is more tolerant, she no longer barks and snarls at ALL dogs, only the ones that invade her space or give her doggy dirty looks! I have ordered a dogmatic head harness as a precaution, so lets hope it helps. In the meantime, I need to find me a better trainer!

I appreciate everyones help though, thank you :)

I'm so glad that you have posted that Ruby is now beginning to improve - after all, she is only 6 months old!

I'm certainly no expert - know little or nothing about Staffies - and my dogs could not be called the best trained :(!! However, I do believe that how you are feeling goes down to the dog - and if you are feeling stressed and nervouse about certain situations, I am sure that your pup feels the same. Therefore, if you are feeling more confident and relaxed, then so will your pup.

Enjoy Ruby, use your intuition as to what advice - and trainer - you keep and what you reject.

It's good to see that this thread got itself untangled!

Margot

"If an animal performs a behaviour, such as (to keep it relevant to you and others who might be experiencing this) such biting or rolling in dog muck, in the technical and REAL meaning of the terms REWARD or POSITIVE (they both mean the same thing) the animal is performing what is called REWARD or POSITIVE behaviour.

The terms were originally phrased in the technical meaning by a human behaviourist psychologist called Bruffus Skinner, I think he first published them in the 1930’s at some point but it might have been earlier."

As I recall Skinner's research showed that the most effective way to extinguish a behaviour was through intermittent negative reinforcement. In other words, whatever behaviour you are trying to shape, punish the animal sometimes and other times do not. It kept the animal wary and afraid to repeat the behavior, the uncertainty of punishment being an even greater deterrent that certain punishment. One of the problems with Skinner was that his research concentrated on very simple behaviors and he did not consider the totality of other consequences resulting from his style of behaviour modification.

I agree with you that in this case a breed specialist would be the best choice in the hopes of avoiding trial and error and any further damage. This is a puppy and there could be many reasons why aggression to dogs has appeared.

Stacey

Wow. What a screwed-up pet you'd get using that method. :rolleyes:

You're right Stacey. Contact a breed specialist.
:)

Melodysk wrote

“Crickey , you really sound familiar”

That’s because it is the same renditions from the same person using a different username AGAIN. Remember Avaunt or jojo or Kurt or sing_song or yapyap or frank60 or and so on and on? Well surprise surprise it is the same person.

By the way, he was officially banned from another site but continued with his verbiage under the guise of a number of usernames, the latest believe it or not is Avaunt.

Yep , I know who it is ;) I was being subtle :D

Welcome to the forum Snowpuppy. And what was your previous username? Please read the forum terms of service. You have joined the forum and seem to be on a mission. Do you have anything constructive to add to this forum or are you here only to cause trouble?

On 03.07.03 12:52 GMT Doogle wrote
“I hope that gives some very basic clarity to what reward or positive and negative and punishment mean.”
EDIT
“When faced with a choice of two or more rewards when a behaviour is in the process of manifesting the dog will perform the behaviour which the DOG ITSELF perceives as the GREATEST REWARD”

On 03.07.03 13:10 GMT Jeangenie wrote
Superficially plausible, Doogle, but far too general.

******************************************

Doogle wrote,
Yes which is why I said “I hope that gives some VERY BASIC clarity “ the emphasis was on BASIC.

It could be carried on as a separate subject topic somewhere as your example was VERY different to my original, hence the opposite result for the hypothetical dog.

In my example there was NO positive (reward) “outcome” AVAILABLE as perceived by THE DOG which was GREATER than the negative outcome i.e. getting stung ( punishment) as THE DOG perceived it.

The dogs experience was negative to it ( being stung) and this reinforced by the outcome, the dog ceased the scenting behaviour with the negative consequence, cessation had positive consequences.

Therefore the negative consequences altered the dogs behaviour, possibly one more recurrence or maybe no more for the dog and it would stay away from sniffing stinging nettles.
___________________________________________________
BUT, not all dogs have a level of sensitivity where nettles are a deterrent, then other factors may be operative such as experience e.g if the dog had never played with a ball its prey drive would be low on that target and many other factors.
__________________________________________________

In your example a positive outcome WAS AVAIABLE ( reward outcome) which was the GREATER consequence as THE DOG perceived and experienced it. To the dog the nettles were not a negative consequence in the whole behaviour, if they were they would have altered its behaviour, the dog experienced a positive outcome as the consequence of its behaviour, therefore a positive reinforcement took place heightening the likelihood of recurrence if the SAME conditions and situation repeated itself.

****************************************

On 03.07.03 13:10 GMT Jeangenie wrote
For a dog who is fearful of others and reacts aggressively, the 'reward' is not the aggressive behaviour - it is in fact the cessation of the trigger, ie the removal of the other dog from its view.
ETC

Doogle wrote,
Replying to the above could be drawn out as it involves drive development of a puppy from a fighting breed and BASIC gene activation. I might come back to it when I have time.

Sorry, but your posts don't seem to make any sense, and their layout make's them even more confusing. Or is that your intention?

liberty

Liberty wrote
"Or was that your intention"

Doogle wrote,
No and what does not make sense?

liberty wrote
"Or IS that your intention"

Tut, tut, you must pay more attention when replying to posts :)

liberty

Which bit confused you Liberty, cos that post made a lot of sense to me!

Annette

Liberty, I feel you are trying to antagonize. If you have something constructive to add to this discussion then please do so.

hi guys.i have to get in a plug for eletronic training its not horrid and cruel.....its technology combined with behavioral science those two things can conquer most behavior problems.............if a dog is maifesting prey drive on another dog removal of the dog is not the answer .the trigger incites the prey drive.thus giving the dog pleasure...if its fear motivated thats another story............................the durable disposition toward dog aggression doesn't go away but he who holds the cards technologically and behaviorally wins...............at this point you hold niether............i'll see if john can post my ''pager collar'' paper it may help.............