not sure what is happening here. house training a 11 week border terrier and we have been doing pretty good. i have been taking him out every hour unless he is asleep in which case i wait until he wakes. out of the blue today, he was sitting on my lap watching TV, stood up and peed all over me. i don't think it is a bladder infection because he seemed perfectly in control. needless to say, i yelled , "NO!" scrambled outside and set him down to let him finish. i was pretty upset. seems like we were making real progress... he was even starting to go to the door when he needed out. is this normal behavior? he also pooped ALL over the crate today when i went out to run errands. please help!

thanks

I wouldn't worry about it. At 11 weeks old all he's doing is doing what he feels like. He needs to go so he goes! A friend's GSD puppy did that to me one day and believe me, she had a big tank to empty!

Regards, John

Greg - I think you are expecting too much from your puppy - he's only tiny... he hasn't got a lot of bladder control at the moment. Take a step back and be patient :)

Thats true - there will often be a step backwards, and pups just don't physically have the developed muscles around the bladder area to "hold on" for very long when they really need to go

Don't worry - just keep calm and keep on, you are obviously making progress so that's good :)

Lindsay

If Shep is starting to go to the door then the message is getting into his young brain. As others have said, he is too young to have full control of elimination.

A Yorkie I used to have was a real devil for peeing on me before she was fully housetrained. When she woke up in the morning I would carry her outside to the garden. At least three times she peed on me as I was holding her - not exactly the kind of shower you expect to take in the morning. :-)

Have patience, it sounds like you are doing the right things and your Shep is learning.

Stacey

he was probably still half asleep, you know what its like :) or might of been dreaming he was on the grass!!!! :D im sure he'll stop before he's 10,

Sounds familiar, when our Border (Monty) was about the same age and appeared to be virtually house trained, he was asleep on my lap one day and promptly urinated all over me , the couch and himself. Needless to say he was woken up very quickly and looked more upset than me. That was very much a one off though , these days he absolutely will ot go in the house unless we have been out so long he can't possibly hold it in any longer. Terrific breed the Borders .

Cheers.

Sean.

You are doing somethings just super but others need a little work. Taking him out immediately when he started to pee and get him to finish outside was exactly the appropriate thing to do. If you leave water down all the time, I would pick it up about 7PM after he has had a good drink for the night. Then make sure to take him out just before you go to bed for the night. A puppy doesn't have full control of their bladder until they are 14 weeks old.

Now to address the the poop in the crate. When did this happen? Was it overnight? or was it during the daytime? If a crate is too large when a puppy is small they will go in their crate as they can go in one spot and still sleep in another. What you can do is get a box to put in the back of the crate to make the floor area smaller but ensure that it is tall enough to keep puppy from climbing on top of the box. With the smaller floor area then there is only enough area for a bed. You will see that it is less likely that puppy will poop in the crate again. As he grows you lessen the size of the box and open up the floor area. Some puppies are real water guzzlers so that's why I pick up the water at night but if it continues to happen, I monitor the drinks even further by never leaving the water on the floor but giving the puppy good drinks through the day so I know when the water went in therefore have a good idea when he will have to pee. Border Terriers can be very spiteful in this regard. They will quite often go outside and fool around and then come back in and go on the floor.

I love this little breed but they do have a neat but different personality. Good luck with him. Write me if you still have questions.

Margaret :) Canada

At that young an age I wouldnt even be worrying - He's a little baby for heavens sake . Dont expect too much from him

Margaret

You believe in depriving a dog of water for up to 12 hours- and a puppy at that?

Oh gee, how nice.

:(

Julia & hooligans

Julia - perhaps Margaret thinks its better to have a dehydrated puppy than a wet crate :rolleyes:

And of course dehydration like this, especially if the pup is fed dry complete food, often leads to kidney problems. :(

Water should be available to all animals at all times.

I daren't say any more or I'll be very rude.

Julia

This might be a silly question, but can puppies really be spiteful??

i can't find the little water bowls for the crates anywhere so the pup sometimes knocks his bowl over in the crate. you know the minute he has done this as he makes an owah noise and comes straight out to tell bless.
em
p.s he is very particular about his crate only the chosen toys are alowed in. if you put one in it gets thrown straight out. then he goes straight back in his crate to rearrange his bedding. i wish my daughter was that tidy with her room.

Emma, try asking for metal parrot bowls, thats what I use in my pups cages. they either come with a frame that clips over the bars, or with a screw that screws the frame to the bars.

Jayne

If you can get onto the internet, I would contact the companies that make the VariKennel or the Furrari Kennel in the U.S. A girlfriend of mine got two really nice water cups to attach to the kennel door. Both are made of hard plastic so they wash up nicely. One in fact has the option that you can put the clip on the door but you can remove the cup to refill it.

Two dog supply firms that I deal with alot are PetEdge(New England Serum and Supplies was bought out by this company) and PetsMart would be good places to start. If you are in England, they maybe able to refer to someone on your side of the Atlantic who would carry these same items.

Margaret :) Canada

I can't believe you would be so naive to reply to my submission with such a unintelligent answer. I would never deprive any animal of water but I do believe in giving puppies drinks of water on a regular schedule than leaving water down for them all day when I am trying to housebreak them. WHAT GOES IN MUST COME OUT!

If I know when my puppies had their drinks it sure makes it a lot easier to take them out to go bathroom and thus work on a praise system for relieving themselves where I wish them to do that. One book that I have used extensively in my 25 plus years in owning, showing, breeding, grooming and raising WIRE HAIRED FOX TERRIERS is written my an American lady, Shirlee Kalstone called HOW TO HOUSEBREAK YOUR DOG IN SEVEN DAYS. This book gives you schedules to follow to help the novice work again on the praise, praise for good behaviour and therefore less accidents in the house. As the puppy becomes more "watertight" in the house then I do leave water down all day. A puppy does not have full control of it's bladder until it is 16 weeks old(4 months old). I also make use of the puppy's crate as most dog's will not soil their bed. It is a growing time as well as a learning time. Some puppies learn faster than others. You move along as the puppy learns what you expect of it. This same book has a section for adult dogs who have fallen back in their housebreaking for whatever reason. You work through the schedule until the dog is completed housebroken again. Usually it doesn't take long. I always go out with my puppies and adult dogs that I'm housebreaking so I can praise them for doing what I want. I praise with my voice but I also use a "Clicker" and a treat for them to reinforce the verbal praise of their accomplishment. Dogs do much better with praise for doing it right than with punishment for mistakes.

I hope you now understand what I was trying to get across with my other posting.

Margaret :) Canada

Julia
I really wonder how long you have been around dogs after your cutting remarks to me. You take one remark out context then make me look like I'm the worse person on this earth. :(

I have been raising and training Wire Haired Fox Terriers for 25plus years with not one that turned into an Agressive Dog, Fear Biter or any Major Kidney Diseases or Disorders or unable to housebreak. Do you every go 12 - 15 hours without a drink of water? If a puppy has had lots of drinks during the day at scheduled times so it can be taken out to do it's business outside their is nothing wrong with it going without water overnight. If the day is exceptionally hot, I probably would give another drink at bedtime when the puppy is taken out to pee before the family retires for the night. I don't know what your experience is with raising puppies but from your remark you showed you have a lot of ignorance in raising and housebreaking puppies.

In future know what you are talking about before you fly off the handle. An excellent book for house training is "HOW TO HOUSEBREAK YOUR DOG IN SEVEN DAYS" by Shirlee Kalstone. This lady is an American dog trainer. Her book sets out schedules so accidents in the house are kept to a minimum and positive praise for completing the bathroom exercises outside. Excellent book for novices and old-hands alike because we all come across a dog that is a challenge. Along with the verbal praise I also use a clicker and food treat when the puppy or adult dog does what I want.

Margaret :) Canada

I would certainly get very thirsty if I tried to go for 12 - 15 hours without a drink. I have a glass of water before I go to bed, and one on the bedside table too. And I have no medical problems (regular checks!) that would make me unnaturally thirsty.

Margaret

Every dog I have had has been housetrained within a couple of weeks, without the use of a crate, or witholding water.

I absolutely do not agree with witholding water in order to make housetraining a small puppy easier on the owner. If you have to rely on a routine like that, then you are making a rod for your own back. My dogs have free access to water, and always have, and they have always been dry through the night straight away - because I alter my routine to fit the pups age - so a young puppy will be let out for a wee just after 11, then to bed, then I will get up at 6am to let the pup out. I will then increase those night-time hours until the puppy is holding it for longer comfortably. There WILL still be accidents in the first few nights, but puppies are bright - they get the idea. WE should be working around the puppy here, not making THEM work around our convenience.

I feel you are making things more confusing for a new puppy owner.
NEW PUPPY OWNERS TAKE NOTE: Expect a lot of accidents in your house - then you will not be worried, or disappointed. And DO NOT get yourself into a routine you cannot manage to fulfil for the rest of your dogs life.

Chloe

So Margaret,

You say I am ignorant, yet you have no idea what my experience is?
Saying “Gee that’s nice” is flying off the handle?

Hmmmmmmm.

I suppose you also believe that human 11 week old babies should work to a schedule, instead of when they need it.

Julia

Chloe & JG I agree with you entirely

That in my opinion is putting human emotions onto a dog.

I breed Borders and in no way can they ever be described as spiteful!!!

and as for depriving a pup of water for that length of time, shame on you what about its kidneys!!! :-(

that's what I thought. Thanks Lady Dazzle :)

Lady Dazzle

You may breed Borders but you haven't met my girlfriend's Border Terrier, Holly. You may call it putting human characteristics on a dog but so be it. She is spiteful!! As another example I owned a Soft-Coated Wheaten Terrier that if it was raining outside and I put her out with the Wire-Haired Fox Terriers in the morning to relieve themselves she would not go while the Wires did. When I brought them back in the house, the Wheaten would immediately pee on my kitchen floor. If I didn't put her out put her in her crate until the rain stopped and put her out then, she would go outside. GO FIGURE!

I call it spite! What would you call it?

As to the water issue see my reply to Julia!

Margaret :) Canada

Well i,v heard it all now :rolleyes:

We should be open minded enough to learn something new every day that we are alive on this earth. Since I got my first dog back in 1979, I have been taught and shown new things and new ways of doing things with dogs. Many of these new ideas have actually made both housebreaking and general training easier on the dog as well as me. I strongly believe in Postive Reinforcement Training rather than the old method of correction for failures.

Dogs will do what we want under both systems but isn't it better that they do it because they want to do it to please you than because they have to do it!

I really don't understand what your statement "Well, I've heard it all now." truly means. What are you getting at? Please explain.

Margaret :) Canada

Thank you for your email, Margaret. I have forwarded it to Admin for information.
:)

My Statement i,v heard it all now was in reference to your statement about dogs being spiteful. As for positive training as opposed to negative yes i am 100% in favour of that but have never taken water away for a puppy over night and must say i haven,t had a problem house training yet.

I certainly wouldn't call it spiteful!

I have a bitch who won't go for a wee in the garden until the others have performed and come back in - because she hates the way the males hang around behind her waiting to 'mark' where she's been. Sometimes they don't wait till she's finished and wee on her!

Perhaps the Wheaten has a similar problem with the behaviour of the Wires - so rather than calling the animal spiteful (anthropomorphic), look further to see a reason behind a distressed dog.

Some years ago in this country a woman was successfully prosecuted and banned from keeping dogs for, among other reasons, not allowing them permanent access to water.

I have to agree, dogs just do not have human behaviour and aren't IMO capable of being "spiteful". We as humans may PERCEIVE it as spiteful, but in truth that says more about us than about the dog :)

Lindsay

But surely if she was being "spiteful" she would still come in and then pee on the floor?? Maybe she just didn't like the rain, or going to the toilet with a pack around her.

Knowing one Border who you describe as "Spiteful"!!, does not give you the experience to say that Border Terriers are "spiteful" as a breed. In fact on the whole BT's are a very intelligent breed and can run rings round their owners if not trained correctly. If your friends BT is what you describe as spiteful maybe YOU should give her some advice on retraining her.

A dogs character can depend as much on their upbringing as on inbred characteristics.

As for not wanting to go outside in the rain to have a wee, bitches in particular can squat very low to the ground when performing and I have found that a lot of them hate the fact that their coat drags in the wet. In fact I have an area specifically made for the dogs that is graveled so that the water does not lay on the ground.

I have had puppy bitches in the past that have ended up with slight scalding where the urine has splashed up onto them, maybe this is a learned behaviour in your Soft Coated Wheaten(i.e. weeing in the rain results in sore bits :-))

The majority of people who own dogs have very successfully housetrained them without this book you recommend, all it takes is common sense and a lot of hard work for a short while without resorting to depriving them of water intake. Any animal needs a constant supply of clean water at all times and to even suggest restricting that supply on an open forum lke this is tantamount to irresponsible.

Jayne

Hi all

We never restricted our girls water and have house trained them in no time. My first Hilda, was over a year old when we rescued her and had been kept in a shed her whole life, the vet and others said that we would never be able to housetrain her, but we did within about two weeks, it was no trouble at all, I just made sure I took them out at every opportunity and stayed with them until they had been and then we would go back inside for a cuddle. Perhaps I have been lucky but I think all is takes is a great deal of patience and perserverance

Jolene

That sounds about right, Jolene. Patience and perseverence is what is needed. The more effort you put in, the quicker the results. And a small puppy will take longer than an adult dog because it simply hasn't got the muscle control or size of bladder as an adult dog.
:)