Can I just ask peoples opinions on whether it is better to be slow maturing as a pup or not ?
One of the areas this concerns is probably showing and just wanted to guage what people think on this ??
If they mature too quickly does it have any effect ?
Lel

I hate to see puppies grow up too quickly. You see puppies in the puppy class in the ring which look almost fully grown. It means that the frame is taking on a heavier weight of puppy before the frame has had the chance to become strong enough to carry the weight.

I know OCD can be inherited but I also know that it can develop for other reasons and for my part, until prooved wrong I put the increasing numbers of OCD sufferers down at least in part to high growth puppy food.

As an aside from that, I believe that the blame for the pressures to producing early maturing puppies lays firmly at the door of the Junior Warrant.

Regards, John

I have a 8 mth old lab puppy who is very slowly maturing. She has been shown twice and placed 3rd both times but I got really annoyed when some of the other breeders commented on why I was showing such a small puppy and how she looked out of place in the line up. My reply was that I would not want an 8 month old puppy to be anywhere near finished and that by the time she is 18months old I would expect her to have caught theirs up.
I have noticed that some of the very mature puppies you see out, are never seen again after the age of 18 months!!!

Thanks both.
Gus is maturing slowly - he is a Staffy , now aged 8 months old .
He LOOKS like a puppy when in the ring , but some of the others at the same age look absolutely huge and they look like adult dogs . The frustrating thing is that these types usualy win (depending on the judge of course ). The thing with Staffys is they tend to fall into two catergories - "bull" or "terrier" but some of the more bull aspired pups look very exagerated . They just dont look like pups at all .
As Nicolla says I have also heard mention that these pups are not around for long.
I find it hard for a judge to compare a young looking pup to an adult looking pup.They look so different.
Lel

It happens in so many breeds Lel. Look at Goldens and Labradors. So many of the early matureing dogs dont stop matureing. By the time they should be looking like adults they are looking "Cloddy" and are blown out. A good dog will get there in the end, you just have to be patient.

Best wishes, John

Thanks John :)

i always go for the slow maturing ones-the all legs and wings puppies-theyve got somewhere to go-whereas the minature adults more often than not are finished by two,---casey didnt start coming together until about 15 months, and i think she'll be the type to last a good while---the puppy i bred and showed at blackpool will be the same-all leggy and raw, but an outline i love, -time will pull it together,

It takes a good eye and plenty of experience to see "Promise of things to come" which a lot of people dont have. Ten minutes in a breed and they are the experts. Unfortunatly they can only see what they have, not what they will have in a couple of years.

Best wishes, John

Thats one of the things that puzzles me when showing . Its like comparing a small boy to a man .
I suppose the judge has to make a decision on what he/she sees NOW and not what MAY come in the future .
Frankly I like pups to look like pups .
Lel

We had the same thing. Savvy is now 2.5 and is only NOW starting to get noticed in the ring. She has taken a long time to mature, but a well-respected person in the breed said to me when she was a pup that in many ways it's better that it goes this way - if they mature too early then they pretty much can go oversize, or have nothing left later one, where as the slower ones when they finally come together are much more solid and sometimes better representations. At the time I wondered if she was just being nice, but looking back I don't think so. So many of the puppies who won and looked so big when Savvy was in the ring are now well huge!! Several don't show anymore that we've seen.

If you can take the criticism with a grain of salt keep going because you'll need the experience behind you for when he IS the right size at the right age. If you keep him out of the ring now he'll not have a clue how to behave in a year or so when he's matured nicely.

Wendy (who's pretty new to all this herself)

Hi Wendy
I am going to keep showing him. As you say when his time does come he will feel t home in the ring . I think they should look like pups when they are. He is only 8 months as I say but there are others in the same class who are just so BIG . Its probably even more noticeable in Mixed Breed shows who only have a puppy class rather than the breed classes which are defined into Minor , Puyppy etc .
Its probably a good idea as Staffie mentioned further down in the post to take a notebook and jot down the types of dogs that individual judges have chosen .
The ony worry I have is that in the future a judge may be more prone to picking the pups that are constantly winning or that he recognises from shows rather than sail against the wind so to speak and choose something dffrent ..I probably hvent phrased that very well but I hope you get my drift ?
Lel

It's the same in whippets and there were times I was really close to quitting - I've written about this recently on another post regarding judging and types in this thread in showing http://www.champdogs.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=27136. I think it's a good idea to know what to expect from a judge so you're not disappointed if you're not placed, but as I said in that post, this year I went ahead and entered anyway, just so she was seen. If you can afford it, I'd go for it - getting your face and your dogs face out there and getting the experience is good so that when his time comes - WOW!

I totally agree that pups should look like pups. Savvy matured very evenly and slowly and looked SO tiny in the ring at 9 months compared to some of the minor puppies in the same class who were 6 months!! It was really disheartening. Wish this thread had been posted then:)

Wendy

We were disheartend at the weekend when we were unplaced from 9 pups . Another pup from the same breeder ( no relation to Gus) was also unplaced so obviously the judge chose a particular look and in fact all five winners were much the same bodyshape .
I dont want this post to sound like a moan because we HAVE been placed and Gus has had some nice comments while at the shows and ringcraft .
Its just sometimes it can get disheartening when you enter the Ring to see adult looking dogs next to you .And more often than not they are chosen.
We seem to be in the minority and it does make you question whether you carry on or leave it until he is older . But for now we will carry on . :)

Hi Wendy
I am going to keep showing him. As you say when his time does come he will feel t home in the ring . I think they should look like pups when they are. He is only 8 months as I say but there are others in the same class who are just so BIG . Its probably even more noticeable in Mixed Breed shows who only have a puppy class rather than the breed classes which are defined into Minor , Puyppy etc .
Its probably a good idea as Staffie mentioned further down in the post to take a notebook and jot down the types of dogs that individual judges have chosen .
The ony worry I have is that in the future a judge may be more prone to picking the pups that are constantly winning or that he recognises from shows rather than sail against the wind so to speak and choose something diffrent ..I probably hvent phrased that very well but I hope you get my drift ?
Lel

Could anyone tell me which breeds are 'slow' maturing? I have a Gordon Setter pup of 5 1/2 months and my biggest worry is that I might over exercise her during her growing time which I believe could be up to 2 years. Her health is of the utmost importance to her besotted owners!

Sandy.

This is the whole point Sandy. In a lot of cases the faster maturing is a product of the environment rather than the breed. High growth puppy foods and the like.

Gordon's are a lovely breed but do suffer badly from over exercise at a young age. My advice is to really keep it down for another six months anyway.

Don't do anything silly like 5 minutes only until a year old then 4 hours twice a day! Gradually increase the amount of exercise up to a year to 15 months old by which time she should be able to take anything you want.

There are some lovely videos of Setter and pointer trials around, a friend lent me one a couple of weeks ago.

Best wishes, John

Silly I ain't! But I am inexperienced and this site has been a great help. Bess gets a walk in the morning of about 45 mins with some free running with friends - a boxer, retreiver and a speedy whippet. So I do worry that her enthusiasm to join in might be too much. Then another 15 minute walk at night. So John please advise.....I'm listening! :)

PS Who produces the videos?

Hi Sandy.
At five and a half months, personally I would be restricting to nearer half an hour per walk and although running with the others is great fun it is putting a bit of a strain on the joints. I know it's a bit of a bind but it's not for ever. Another 3 months and you will be up to 45 minutes and 6 months it can be an hour.

Not the video I was thinking about, (You can never find a thing when you want it LOL) Have a look at http://www.turnerrichards.co.uk/pages/products/videos.html# There are always plenty advertised in the shooting press around Christmas time.

Regards, John

John - as a hopefully soon-to-be lab puppy owner! :) :) :) You mention high growth puppy foods - any particular brands in mind, and what do you use for your puppies? Thanks.
Cathy.

Hi Cathy.
Not getting into names but I like something not to high in protein. I also like to get off of Puppy food as soon as the puppy can manage the larger, more solid adult foods. A Labrador can handle this quite happily by around 4 months old in fact I start to change mine over by 12 weeks. Possibly the reason why mine never get to full size much before 2 years old. I like to keep the weight off my puppies for as long as possible. Use the "Finger Test" to determine the food requirement. Feel the rib cage and if the ribs feel hard edged increase the food, if they are hard to find then decrease. Aim at being able to feel a softened blurred rib. Don’t forget that a growing puppy needs more food as it grows so reducing the amount of food really means just not increasing it for a little while.

I also prefer not to use a complete with young puppies. (It could be that I'm just old fashioned but that’s me!) If you do decide to feed a complete then I would feed it moist until the puppy has it's adult teeth at around 6 months old.

They are a lovely breed Cathy. They can be a trial when young but I could not be without 'em!

Best wishes, John

Hi Lel,

In our breed it is believed to be much better to have a slow maturer, though there are not many around at the moment - those pups that win a lot in puppy tend to disappear by the time they reach limit as they get too heavy and overdone. Solo is a case in point - he has all the ingreidients, but still looks like a puip - which he is as 14 months old - but all the other pups (even 6 month old ones) make him look so immature. His breeder (ansd others who admire him at shows) have said that he'll be cracking by the time he is 2 and fully grown - but looks all wrong now!

Is Gus suffering from the sdame thing? Apparently the Eastaff lines are slow maturing - much more so thn the midlands based lines...

Alex

In American Cockers we often see the 'finished' pups winning puppy classes, and then vanish from the frame after Junior as they are just too over done, or heavy. I can never grasp judges reasoning in pup critiques when the put 'just won on maturity' why would a pup (especially minor pup) be considered better because it is an early developer. Have 2 gorgeous parti-colours at the moment, almost 8 months, and still very much babes, very raw and leggy, and play up like mad in the ring, but love it:) Dont know if anyone on the list remembers Dexter, who was pup of the years way back in 96 and Top Dog in 97. As a puppy he was very raw, but the quality was there to see. We often find that we dont bring our 'kids' out till after pup if we see the promise but think the judges would get hung up on the lack of maturity and finish. Having fun for pups is a lot more important for their state of mind than being superbly trained and ring ready - we want them to enjoy their puppyhodd - its great if they enjoy showing and win, but the long term view is more important;). Just a thought, as American Cockers are definetly on the small side this is not just a 'big dog' question, but covers all sorts of breeds.
bye
Gwen

Hi Cleo
yes Gus is slow maturing . I dont find this a probem myself as I have previously mentioned , I much prefer a pup to look like a pup .
I think its more frustration that these big heavy set pups seem to be placed more . Some do not look like pups at all .
I have been advised to be patient and that Gus will be around longer but I suppose I feel I am wasting my time showing at this early age sometimes because he looks so immature compared to the others in the Ring . I personally love him to bits - to me hes just right . He is how I expect a pup to look.And I wouldt swop him for any other .
When people are showing these very large , mature looking dogs it makes him look even more puppyish next to them .
He has been placed though , so maybe its a case of being more selective with the judges I show under . Which is pretty hard when you a new comer .
Lel

Hi lel,

I know what you mean - but i am starting to get impatient! He has such a superb head, but this really wimpy little body, really narrow and he was a year in April! I cant enter him in anything yet, we just go tot eh odd show to show jjayne his progress. Maybe by the top end of junior - where all the other dogs will be younger than him - he might do something! But i was advised by judge, and frined not to show him until he is more into himself as he will get a reputation for being "underdeveloped" or "weedy" - or just plain loser!

GUess i dont actually enjoy ythe shoeing bit that much either at the moment - just like to go and meet up- and he is such a show off outt eh ring he is getting the atention that he deserves!

Alex

Cleo
have you seen any others from your litter and if so are they the same ?

Hi Lel,

None of the others are show quality, and were never thought to be. Solo was the smallest in the litter, and is now easily the talest. The otehrs seem to have matured faster than him, in that there bodies have come right, but nasty heads on them. Having said that, one of the other pups is too small to show, and solo tops the standard! Mixed bag i think - shall just have to wait and see.

What about you? Who is he by, by the way?

Alex

Cleo
He is an Alport boy - Dad is Rikers Secret Sidekick and mum is Jazz ( Zebidis girly -off NESBTC) . Grandparents are Spirestaff Jimmy Jazz and Brystaff Simply the Best .
I am happy with him just find it hard at the shows as he looks so small next to some of the monsters
lel

HI Lel,

I know he's alport, just wondered who dad was. Eastaff stuff is slow, and i was hapy that solo looked like a pup when he was 10 months, but he is approaching 15 now, and only his head is getting bigger! He'll grow in his own time - probably get made up in veteran!

Alex

Some staffs are more on the terrier side and some more on the bull side. It is all down to personal preference of the breeder, owner and when showing of course the judge which type they like.
When we were showing nearly every weekend the trend seemed to be more bully types were being picked with the odd few preferring terrier type. A good staffy should be an even blend of both but I personally prefer the bully type and so breed for this type. The last litter I had however was a more terrier type and it was not something I would do again, but that is just my opionion :-).
When we first started I had a red very terrier type bitch, slow maturing and she would ofen get placed (VHC usually) but never in the first two, until I took her under Elaine Norton who gave her firsts and she qualified for Crufts! I was so shocked but not half as shocked as the crowd watching who previously had muttered comments like "look at that whippet in the ring". :D

Absolutely - but staffords are supposed to be an even mix of the 2,and i dont like this trend for very bully dogs, but i also dont like too lean dogs either. Solo is not to the terrier - his dad (birthday Boy) is fairly bully, though his mum was more fine. To be he has the perfect stafford head - and everyone at shows comments on his ead adn his front. He is definately up ont he leg too, but has the bone to carry it - the problem lies in his length! As his ribs have not yet spruing he looks very narrow, and slightly too long - the minute that these go he will line up so much more. His breast hasn't widened and neither has his head split properly, all of these will happen judging by his dma and sires family, just a matter of time.

Alex

Hi,
Don't get me wrong I mean bully but not "bulldoggy" like some of them are now :-(
I am sure your pup will turn out ace, it is just such a waiting game.
What we did when first showing was keep a notebook of all the judges and write whch "type" and colour they seemed to prefer. When you do that it is amazing how many do go for certain types. That way as you do more shows you know which judges it is worth going under and which ones you would be wasting your time with :-)

Hi,
Don't get me wrong I mean bully but not "bulldoggy" like some of them are now :-(
I am sure your pup will turn out ace, it is just such a waiting game.
What we did when first showing was keep a notebook of all the judges and write whch "type" and colour they seemed to prefer. When you do that it is amazing how many do go for certain types. That way as you do more shows you know which judges it is worth going under and which ones you would be wasting your time with :-)

Staffie
do you find the Terrier type do mature slower than the bull type ?
I was told by one judge that the heavy set mature looking dogs are just smaller versions of they way the will look at adult age .Whereas the puppy looking dogs will be changing all the time as they grow and will obviously improve and develop.Thus will be around longer .
I am aware that judges have their own preferences and while one judge may adore the bullys , another equally adores the leaner terrier type but my main frustration ( maybe thats too strong a word) is thatjudges often go for adult looking dogs even in a puppy class .
Do any other breeds have this vast difference in puppy classes ?
Lel

That is the way I have found it that terrier type do take longer.
The other side of the coin though with a slow maturer is that instead of improving they can go the other way. Maybe that is why when the judge sees a puppy maturing well he can see more of a picture of the future dog rather than with a slow maturer so takes the safer option????
Think owners/ breeders and judges all have their own preferences.
I like a strong head, muscular, short back, neat rose ears, good chest, not leggy (pet hate) - not that I am picky or anything! :-) oh and not snipey, a strong broad muzzle, hate pointy faces.
My idea of a perfect staffie is Wyrefare Prince Naseem - that is why we used him and got an Am. Ch. :D

I like a nice well set dog but not the heavy bulldog monsters . I hate the round barels that seem to have feet set onto their belly . :( . I think a Staff needs "some" leg .
lel

Agree some leg obviously but not leggy :-)
Have you seen pictures of Prince Naseem? He is to me just perfect. Another do I like is Vanoric Voo Doo.

Big on Midlands breeding? I find Naz too heavy in the head, and dont like his back end - Voodoo is a nice alround dog - but most of what he produces is too heavy, and getting enourmously short int he nose - i know that that takes into account the bitches he is put to, but thats midlands breeding for you (gross generalisation i know :D) I like what Naz produces on the female side, but think the males are too heavy (Timgold dogs for example).

I like to see some air between the ground and the belly - but dont like the "athletic" looking dogs - though i like mine to be very fit. I think with a lot of the terrier types, the look a lot taller becasue they dont hav the width in the rib that te bullys have, and so generally appear more whippety.

Oddly(!) i like Eastaff Guardian, Both Barrels and the Fromestaff dogs (which are all at the back of wyrefare as they were breeding partners, but they didn't "overdo" the heads)

Alex

Love the Midlands breeding as that is where we were from before moving up north :D
We have a bitch we bred from Voo Doo and she is not as heavy as we thought she would be.
A Fromstaff bitch is Naz's mom and she is nice too.
Naz must be doing something right as he has been top stud dog for the last couple of years :-) Tornado Storm the Legacy out of Naz is nice too.
We also love the Crashkon dogs and have a bitch we bred out of What a Cracker. Wow what a head she has :-) Cracker really stamps his head on his progeny.
So if you could pick the perfect dog to say he was yours and show, who would it be?
Mine would still be Naz - give my right arm comes to mind :-)

hi staffie, i have to agree on your comments about crashkon dogs and in particular crashkon what a cracker who i have used as a repeat mate no less than 3 times with my boldbull bitch and every time had pups who were very good in type and temperament. joe(what a cracker) has definately to my mind put his mark out there and also the results are showing in the pups from his pups.
by the way who was the mother of the bitch you have out of joe ?

Fernstaff Equanimity of Castlestaff is the mother of my bitch. She is a full sister to Ch. Fernstaff Special Quest. :-)

Hi Lel

Like everybody else I would say slow maturing is far better than being grown up before their time.

Douglas (Cocker Spaniel) nearly 21 months has everything going for him apart from body, he is a livewire and burns off everything sooner than he has put anything on :( He will be fully mature at around 24 months, head breaking properly and hopefully keeping weight on :)

I'm not in any hurry for him to keep up with the Jones and when they have all had their glory we will be there to take over.

Dessie :D :D

Lord help me then if Eastaff is slow maturing and Gus won't be ready until Veteran when will Sal be ready!!!!!!

I got told on Sunday by Lel's breeder that Sal is slow maturing, and my breeder says his bitches are slow but at her age it depends on the judge, and she's doing just fine as he expected but with a nice head and ears which is what he used the stud dog for. As she is so adorable with a temprament to die for ;) so I'll stay with it practice ringcraft and just wait our turn, Sal was brought as a family pet first and foremost. But as my breeder said he'd rather sell a puppy to a permenant family home never to be shown than to someone who is looking for a " show champion" because no one can promise that, and what would happen to the pup if it didn't make it in the ring!

He just wants his pups to be happy and loved in forever homes.Which is why we got Sal from him in the first place.

;) Don't mind to much though gives us weekends free for FUN.
Karen

not Gus - Solo! wont be ready till veteran. Remmeber though that your pups really are pups at 8 months or so - and so i wouldn't call that slow maturing at all, just normal - solo is slow as we would have expected even a pup to have started making some progress now! Just waiting for those ribs to spring and then i can start entering him again!

Alex

Kazz - what affix is Sal? And did you make any decisions on getting another pup?

Hi Alex,

Yes we did make a descision first My Mom who who puppy sits while I'm at work is going into hospital soon for a big op (unknown at the time of planning to get a pup) and I felt it wouldn't be fair on pup/Mom/Sal at that time. So it's all on hold and Sals so perfect anyway, that it's not a great disapointment, although we would of loved the pup obvioucsly. The time will be right and the right pup will come along when we least expect it ;)

Sal is from an Affix you might not know(not a big kennel) she's Cragails her dam is Cragails Black'een and her sire is Brystaff Simply the Best.

I know she more than likely would do well in a Stafford show, because her litter sister took 2nd MBP at Bath and 1st at Blackpool and the 3rd bitch in the litter the one our breeder kept has yet to show but she's out at Potteries, she is gorgeous too, the three of them are almost identical still even now at 7 months.

Karen