Sorry everyone to start a new topic but I think it's important that this gets looked at. Today in Dog's World Killick says
"I also think that as a couple of weeks have passed since you first emailed the bureauprat in charge it is time for a second e-assault, a second wave of e-mails objecting to the grants and giving reasons. Again he says send it to tim.cosgrove@wales.gsi.gov.uk".

I have to say I agree after the pitiable debate that took place this week ...


Lorraine Barrett: While I welcome the progress on the rural development plan, I am concerned about Farming Connect in relation to the farm enterprise grant, which can be used for capital work such as building kennels for dog breeding. We have far too many horrific examples of puppies and dogs that have been neglected and been the victims of unscrupulous breeders. We do not need any more dog-breeding kennels: we have far too many in Wales at present. Councils are already unable to properly monitor and inspect licensed dog breeders-and there are as many unlicensed ones in Wales. I ask the Minister to consider this scheme again.
some time later...

Carwyn Jones: Turning to Lorraine's comments about puppy farmers, two farmers have applied for grants through Farming Connect. They have much experience in breeding puppies and have done their market research. They also intend to breed high-quality dogs in welfare-friendly surroundings. I assure you that we are not talking about the kind of puppy farms that Wales had such a bad reputation for in the past-

Full text here:

http://www.wales.gov.uk/servlet/ChamberSession?area_code=380313AC00046B17000028C300000000&month_year=6|2003&module=dynamicpages then look at the record for 18-06-03

As more than one person has pointed out Carwyn Jones is talking as though the Welsh puppy Farming Problem is a thing of the past and no longer exists, if we let him get away with it - More fools us.

E-mailed Lorraine Barrett this morn. her reply was that I should learn to understand how the assembly works - my reply was that two thirds of the Welsh population believes it does'nt work at all. The RSPCA have still not made a statement. Carwyn jones sent the usual standard letter in reply to mine. Have now asked him to have the courtesty and the courage to reply in person. Of the 500 applications for grants pending. none are for dog breeding. We now are pushing for an explanation as to why two farmers running established businesses were allowed grants. The press officer at the assembly is making enquiries. We have united with ACG & S and Animal Aid have given their consent to use their name for the demonstration which is scheduled for 23rd Spt. 2003 when the Ass. return (to work?)

mayhem,

I got the standard reply from Tim Cosgrove as well and I also sent him an email back saying that I was insulted that he had so obviously not read my email as he did not answer any of the points I raised and that I was waiting for a personal response. I have not heard but will send him an email every day until I do hear back from the lazy so and so.

Please write to Carwyn Jones, Minister of Environment & Rural Affairs. Tim is taking the backlash of this & I find him most obliging and understanding. That silly man CJ responded to LB's question in yesterday's debate by quoting yet again a paragrph from the standard letter. Has he nothing original to say.

Reference proposed demonstration on September 23rd. I presume it is in Cardiff? Well, I would love to go but it is 5 hours drive away; I live on Anglesey. I told Karen Macgringle (Hope I've spelt that right) the same thing I was wondering if there Champdog forum people from North Wales who might be able to band together for a mini bus or something. Some suggetions please.

xavirene, if you would like to e-mail me I am co-ordinating this demo, so perhaps I can forward you some contacts

It does not help if you get the right jounalist in the wrong dog paper, it confuses everyone. It is Robert Killick who writes for Our Dogs not for Dog World. Might seem a small point but I do not think he would be too amused.

Quite right Pat - my error!

I wrote to Carwyn Jones and received a reply from Darren Brook. In fact when I wrote to Tim Cosgrove I also received the same reply from Darren Brook. I still await a reply from my AM (Sue Essex) and MP (Julie Morgan—the leader of the Assembly's wife!)

Either I'm going mad or was this removed at some point today? I seem to remember a posting from Dotty which had a brilliant list of people to email as well? Has old timers come eary for me?

Please contact Dotty directly, they will supply you with the 58+ email addresses off forum.
Thank you :-)

Hidden inside last Wednesday's (18 June) Western Mail (daily Welsh paper—for whole of Wales) within the farming section:

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/page.cfm?objectid=13092853&method=full&siteid=50082

Hi - got another email from ITV today :

Hi -- I'm the Wales and West of England Correspondent for ITN. Your message to Steve Anderson got passed on to me. it sounds tlike an interesting story...do you have a contact number?

K - I've emailed it to you :) Anyone else want to speak to him?

Hi,
I got some emails back today from various people regarding this issue. One in particular was from an AM who has written to Carwyn Jones. Not sure if I can copy and paste on here, but will gladly send to anyone who emails me. The majority of the responses have been positive, with just a few becoming very defensive and even name calling!! I think we are certainly making the point though.

For all the info on this campaign against the Welsh Assembly there is now a website that explains what's happening, with links to related stuff, a guest book, discussion forum, replies from various AMs, etc. It will be updated on a regular basis:

http://www.saynotopuppyfarms.org.uk

Hi, just heard that there is a programme about this going out on ITV on 8th August at 4.25pm.

I've just taken a look at this website - it is excellent ! :D Loads of info and links. It even gives you the name of your local M.P. and the facility to send a fax direct.

It's a brilliant way of letting people read about the campaign for themselves.

Well done to whoever pulled it all together :)

Can I ask a favour? Could some of you leave an appropriate comment about the campaign issue on the site's guest book?

I know that a fair amount of people are visiting, but we have got the media checking the site and if they can see that lots of people are adding their personal protests about this issue (as well as signing the petition) it will help raise the campaign profile in the eyes of the media.

I guess its just another way of protesting how we feel but this way its a little more than just signing a petition

Thanks for all your support

Admin: duplicate URL snipped. Please use the URL already posted

Re the online petition (url somewhere in this post): We only need 8 more signatures to make this petition the 4th "All time most popular petition"...

Everytime I've tried to do so, the site has been unavailable. Is it now up and running?

Today's Our Dogs and Dogs World both have articles on the subject - 2 editorials in Our Dogs and an article in Dogs World which says that the Scottish Assembly have their own plans to implement this scheme. So it makes it doubly important that the Welsh Assembly are made to see sense on this.

I read somewhere this week that there is a public meeting being held in Cardiff by the Welsh Assembly to ask the public how they feel the Assembly is doing but I seem to have mislaid the information - does anyone else have it?

Online petition is back up and running again. It must be a Friday thing—too many people trying to make the day go faster by doing anything but work

If anyone is interested if you go to the saynotopuppyfarms website (link to it is above) there is an interesting snippet in their discussion forum in the media report bit re a letter from the Kennel Club to the Welsh Assembly Agric Minister (Boosmum—have emailed the link of the actual page to you).

saynotopuppyfarms have just received an email from the Kennel Club who are mighty upset that Carwyn Jones (Welsh Assembly minister for Agriculture) keeps throwing their name about in what appears to be a blatant attempt to give credibility to this outrageous scheme.

The KC have sent a letter to Carwyn asking him to desist, and they copied it to the Radio 4 You and Yours program, who, as a result, will be covering this topic again today (11 July) in the broadcast between 12pm and 1pm.

Today's schedule is not yet on the web site: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/ but it should be there soon...

The petition site is back up again for anyone who's been trying (I think this must happen every Friday!)

Also, someone has finally managed to force an answer out of the Welsh Assembly on Friday - and Carwyn Jones is going to accept the petition on 23rd September

Initially, we wanted the First Minister to take it, but he's passed this particular hot potato onto Carwyn as the Minister responsible for this crazy scheme!

So - we need as many signatures as possible, online and on printed copies, by 15th September...

Keep the pressure on!

Just received yet another empty letter from Carwyn Jones, not wasting my time responding will go further up the chain of authority. Alun Michael MP would not intervene as this is an Assemly matter , although he is our local MP he misconstrued the whole content of my missive .

Keep on keeping on Mo!!

This should probably be a new thread although it is pertinent to the puppy farming debate. Whilst we, on this site, are striving to revoke the grant aid to farmers what are the national animal charities doing? Whilst we are overworked, exhausted, frustrated and angry the Assoc. of Dogs & Cats Homes are holding their meeting in Jersey from 17th - 20th July . The itinerary reads 17th July Dinner at the Old Courthouse. 18th July Media interviews followed by the meeting lasting for TWO HOURS then buffet lunch and a tour of Jersey. Another dinner in the evening. 19th July coach tour of the Island, Jersey Zoo for lunch , back to St. Helier for shopping and free time. evening beach BBQ and games. 20th July free time. The agenda covers 19 topics in two hours, one of which is Welsh Puppy Farms and the Welsh Ass., speech by Clarissa Baldwin. Probably lasting no more than 5 mins. This meeting is attended by NCDL, RSPCA, Blue X., Battersea, Manchester and Birmingham Dog's homes etc. In January 2004 it is planned to hold the meeting in Ireland and July 2004 Washington USA is being considered. It is time they were challenged. Apart from the ADCH we also have the new DLAG, PAC, PAAG, DIG and ICAWC which has been held in Prague, Bratislavia, Sofia, and Instanbul. The money wasted on these free holidays could be put to better use. No wonder my speeches are so vitriolic.

Do not despair, I now have an MP on our side plus interest from the national newspapers. Not prepared to divulge any more at this time but will update you as soon as I have any information.

The RSPCA have now issued a statement re this matter:

RSPCA Statement On Puppy Farming And The National Assembly For Wales Farming Connect Scheme

The RSPCA is opposed to irresponsible breeding of puppies and would certainly not wish to see money going into those ventures. The Society has long campaigned against the horrors of puppy farming and would call upon the National Assembly for Wales not to support any grant applications from such unscrupulous breeders.

However puppy farming must not be confused with responsible dog breeding and it is our understanding that only existing licensed dog breeders have been funded by the Assembly, under the Farming Connect Scheme, to further improve their standards.

We would urge the National Assembly for Wales to be cautious when issuing grants in particular to ensure that it is not used to encourage farmers to diversify into dog breeding as there are far too many unwanted animals in Wales awaiting homes in our animal centres.

In addition, where these grants have been issued, it is vital that the Assembly recognises it's obligation to ensure all breeding establishments are properly monitored to ensure that welfare is a top priority and that there are no breaches of the law."

As there is no legal definition of puppy farming what does the RSPCA define a puppy farmer? I know what my definition of a puppy farmer is and this is a view that I thought that the RSPCA shared (a puppy farmer is person who breeds from their breeding bitches indescriminately and sells the puppies onto a third party and not directly to the final owner, they maybe operating from a licensed or unlicensed premises) this view was generally accepted by all those concerned for animal welfare. Now it appears that the RSPCA have moved the goal posts (they did the same with pet shops) and now say 'that puppy farming must not be confused with responsible dog breeding and it is our understanding that only existing licensed dog breeders have been funded by the Assembly, under the Farming Connect Scheme, to further improve their standards.' Whoopie!! What a lot of utter nonsense.
If these two breeders were licensed as dog breeders already prior to the application for a grant through Farming Connect, then why would they need to improve their premises? As their Councils should have only been using the model conditions for Dog breeding premises of The British Veterinary Association, Chartered Institute of Environmental Health Local Government Association for Dog Breeders which if it was adhered to by their respective Councils this should have ensured their premises were up to scratch anyway and the application for finacial help by way of a grant should not have been necessary.
A farmer already involved in dog breeding and Licensed operating a business as trader can hardly be a farmer diversifying can he? As he or she is already active within the activity he is diversifying into - dog breeding! With 25 breeding bitches he is not selling locally either I am sure, not in Wales he/she is just one of the hundreds of others supplying the pet trade or can anyone on this board tell me different perhaps met these farmers at shows, they are supposed to reg their pups with the KC that make a change from the DLUK, perhaps I am wrong and they are 'showing their dogs' although I very much doubt it.
I personally am pretty disgusted with the RSPCAs wishy washy comments, what a half hearted effort.

This is a quote from a letter from our local trading standards on the puppy farm televised a few weeks ago.The RSPCA were called 5 times and only by pressure from my local vet did they attend this farm. From the Licensing & Strategic Services, Cardiff.
"The condition of the animals is a concern to both the authority and the RSPCA. In this case I am pleased that I have been advised that all the dogs seen appeared to be in a good bodily condition and in good health" The photographs were published in the Welsh Sunday papers and the conditions were televised on Short Change. Is it any wonder excessive puppy breeding flourishes with impunity.

If anyone visited the the Royal Welsh Show did they notice the Wales Trade International stand? This is the overseas arm of the Welsh Assembly and they match potential partners and arrange introductions for export purposes. As their advertisement featured a farmer holding 3 puppies I rang the WTI asking for assistance with export of puppies should I be successful in my application for a Welsh Assembly farmer's grant .I explained that the market was saturated in the UK. They were very obliging , and yes they most certainly could advise me. In fact they already assist a trading company with the export of horses and admitted that they have dealt with an application for the export of puppies. As the Welsh European Funding Agency is now redundant and is to be transferred to the Assembly this news is not heartening.

From what I have read here and other places, and (many years ago)having known the daughter of a puppy farmer (they had a farm in cardiganshire and sent Old English Sheepdog puppies by train to various places in UK ) who couldn't see what the problem was. It appears to me that you can do what you d*** well please as long as you call yourself a farmer and have a license. And they'll even give you a grant to ensure you achieve the lifestyle you wish to acquire/keep. Now, what can I breed that there's no market/over saturated market for??.........

And lets not forget that done properly dog breeding is never going to show a profit in the long term.

I can't help wondering what idiot dreamed this one up.

Depressed
Dill

Pat the bit you mentioned in your last thread re "25 breeding bitches"

Do you know that one of the farmers that has received one of these grants has 25 breeding bitches as this seems to be what the statement says (can you prove it and know the name and location?). If so would love to hear from you. Thanks

Hi, sorry I had this from good authority, but the number only, I was not given the name or location, even though I asked. Sorry I cannot be of more help on this occassion.

Received another letter from Tim Cosgrove in reply to mine to Carwyn Jones. Quote " The Welsh Assembly Government has been quite open in releasing information to both individuals that have written to us and the media. Details of individual farmers and their business is a matter of 'commercial confidentiality' " We are now seeking advice from another political party as this is merely a ploy used by authority figures as an excuse to protect themselves.