I have been trying to find a suitable dog to use as stud for my bitch to no avail, i find someone then lose contact with them, and because of the colour of my dog they wont let me use the colour i want to use.
my bitch is ayellow labrador, her mum is black and her dad is chocolate, i mated her at just over two years to a chocolate (i know you wouldnt normally put choc to yellow but she had one choc parent and we wanted to see whether or not she would have choc pups, although colour wasnt important as the pups already had homes) this time i am finding it very had to find a choc stud, i dont want to use the same stud as i have heard that the last few litters he has produced hjave had defects and died as a result.
my boss has suggested using his black with choc lines as stud which i didnt want to do as the dog is related to my bitch, but it may come to using him,
what i would like to know is how close is to close in terms of bloodlines?
the dogs grandfather is my dogs sire, the rest of the pedigree is different, my dog is from showlines, and the dog from a mix, mainly working.
he himself is a bomb detection dog in training as he has taken to it readily his pups will be prized, my bitch unfortunely cant be shown due to a permanent kink in her tail, from dislocation as a pup, if i was to shot then she would work, she currently does 'pest control' much to everyones delight, and is currently being trained to search, whether for bombs or drugs we havent decided yet.
both dogs in question have had the relevent eye tests and the dog hip score and the planned pups already have homes, if i didnt have homes lined up i woudnt breed from her.
sorry for rambling,
tanya

Hi, If you want to try for chocolate puppies then I would only use a chocolate dog, from 2 chocolate parents of a good dark colour/pigment and who ideally have a black parent each and no yellow at all for at least 4 generations and preferably 6. You will almost certainly get some yellow puppies but hopefully less and the chocolates you do get will probably be a better colour (and more chocolates as black is dominant overall) than if you use a black dog carrying chocolate. However if you use a black dog known to carry chocloate (which may be the only way you will get an owner of a good dog to accept your bitch) the colouring of the puppies should be better overall but you may get few/no chocs, but at least they will be more likley to be good strong and even colour. It will partly depend on how her sire is bred colour wise. If he comes from 2 choc parents with no yellow for several generations then you are more likley to get more choclates in the litter.

I have recently been researching chocolate pedigrees and have found these sites very helpful as they have pedigrees - some web site links and all the dogs are colour coded! Cant do links - sorry but here are the addresses:
www.joebattsarm.com/labradornet/listofpedigrees.html
www.labrador.retriever.free.fr/index.php3?lang=en and click on dog data base
However yellowxchocolate, you are likely to get mis-marks ( on both colours) or uneven colour which is why dog owners are reluctant to let you use their dog I expect.
Whether to use the black dog you mentioned; If the individual (your bitch's sire - his grandsire) that they are both related to is an oustanding dog with good test results, then it may be a good mating. This is not very close in line breeding terms, as long as the dog was an outstanding one, if you cant find another, better dog to suit, may be the best bet. You could always contact the breeder of the individual you are considering line breeding to and ask them what they think. If they advise against it - I would take their advice but they may not say why, so dont press them!! Good luck, where abouts are you?

hi westie lover
thank you for your advise, my dog has been put to a choc before and had 2 chocs and 4 blacks, she was the only yellow in a litter of blacks, and we were quite surprised to see a yellow (i used to work for her breeder so was lucky enough to see her being born), i would prefer to use a choc dog, but if it comes to it i will use a black choc carrier, which, the diog at work is,
to me breeding relatives is unethical, but i know that it is done, i would just like to know how close is too close, my dogs sire is the prespective studs grandsire on his dams side, the rest of the line is different hopefully someone will be able to help, other wise there is nothing wrong with the dog.
im sorry if this came accross as being rude i didnt intend for it to be

Hi,
Line breeding is used by the majority of breeders (with the blessing of most vets). This is where the dog and bitch have some common ancestors three or four generations back. Outcrossing, where the dog and bitch are unrelated, is much more of a lottery. You may be lucky and get a good puppy in the litter, but the rest will be "pretty nondescript" (to quote vet/judge/breeder Mike Stockman).

so would this mating be too close?

re: the closeness of the mating...it would be perfectly acceptable.

Sounds like an excellent suitability to me, very acceptable

No, but he should be an outstanding sog with the qualities you desire, as he is going to have a proportionaely higher influence on the pups. My champion bitch is the result of her Mum being mated to a dog sired by her Grandfather, and is a good not to close linebreeding. The dog being linebred to is a healthy 11 year old, who has had a positive influence on the breed re movement and temperament beyond reproach, whcih is why I did the mating.

Is it just the dog that has been hip scored and not your bitch, or have I read that wrong?

my bitch has not yet been hipscored but as she is not due in season for another four months it is possible to get her tested before she has been mated, both have had their eyes tested

I should hurry and arrange the x-ray. The results can take a while to come back and you don't want to runout of time.
:)

My dog was hipscored 2nd May and the results are not back yet. Cheque hasn't been cashed yet either!

Did you not know to hip score before her first litter?

hi isobel
no i didnt get her hipscored before her first litter, but when i got her i never intended to breed, and i didnt intend to breed from her a second time either, i will be getting her hipscored and any other bitches/dogs that i get, her dam, sire, liter brother and sister and one of her previous pups(the others havent been tested) have all got low hips with the highest being 11 which was her dam i have records of other hipscores as well all being low with a few 0/0 scores, i do know the importance of hipscoring which is why i am getting her hipscored now, although she could have 0/0 hips and the dog i put her with could have 0/0 hips, she colud have a pup with severe hipdysplasia the pup may not be born with it (which the are not they develop it) but i9f the new owners are not to follow the guidelines given by the time it is 6mths to a year it could be crippled with dysplasia, as the development of hipdysplasia is as much environmental as it is heredrity (sp?)
sorry if this comes across as rude and abrupt that is not the intention, i am aware of the importance of hipscoring, and the health screenings that need to be done, i just havent had her hips done yet.
tanya

my best friends have a lovely working lab & despite all my attempts to make them realise the seriousness of it all, they were adamant on having a litter from her.(For no good reason other than it would "be nice for her") :(
Anyway they at least heeded my advice to get a quality stud dog & a hip score...but the score came back in the 40's so the stud dog owner wouldnt accept the bitch! Anyway, the point to all this is that her parents had low scores (single figures) & you would never suspect any problem from watching her work all day...but you just dont know do you? its very irresponsible to breed from unscored dogs. (friends had her speyed & she continues to be an excellent keepers dog.)

as i said before environment comes into it as well, i have done lots of research in to hip dysplasia, it is a very interesting subject, also the kennels i used to work at had a litter of pups , both parents hipscored, one of the pups, the biggest in the litter, when going home increased in size very quickly, the new owners were told to try and keep his weight down, to reduced his exercise to short on the lead walks instead of the hour off the lead walks he had been having and to try and keep him off slippery surfaces, at 5mths old we had a phone call to say that they were suing as he had severe hip dysplasia and wouldnt live past a year old, they were informed by our vet, and the local authority vet that it isnt just heredity, there were environmental factors aswell, no more was ever heard.
i have already said that my bitch is to be hipscored, and any future dogs that i own will also be scored.
my post wasnt about the colours or the scoring of hips, just about breeding, my question has been answered, and i thank everybody who has put my mind at rest,
tanya

Don't know whether you are going to use your vet - I go up to Cambridge Veterinary Hospital - they don't put them out completely there & the results seem to come back pretty quickly!

Margot

HI, sorry if I wasn't clear in my first message - on the mating you were thinking of, (the black dog carrying chocolate) as long as the dog you are line breeding to (her sire-his grandsire) has low hip score and eyes tested clear with a steady temp, and is an outstanding example of the breed then the mating should be ok. A mating like this would not be considered too close, and may of the best examples of the breed are line bred like this. Your puppies can only inherit bad characteristics if they are there in the studs or bitch's genes anyway. Line breeding does not "invent faults" but if he does have a fault then it is more likley to show up in a litter that is line bred to him. To "double up" on or "line breed to" an individual dog is fine if he was sound and outstanding. You are mnore likely to get a better litter if you use this dog (all things being equal)than to mate to a dog that is totally unrelated. Any mating is a always a chance to take though. I hope this is clear!! Good luck with her tests, some vets seem to get better score results than others, so if you are recommnded to go somewhere in particular for them on this board, I would definately follow the advice.

its very distressing when labradors are dicussed on the basis of color which is the overwhelming theme of this thread.............the color is the least important thing,fact.least important.[think if they only came in black,how different things would be]....these dogs need to be at least sired by a titled stud.....at the very least.....and to linebreed on litter that was the result of yellow to chocolate would be a recipe for disaster...that i know of there are not titled dogs or noteworthy individuals in this breed that are the result of yellow to choc.no titled dogs have ever been garnered from such......find the most sound proven titled male you can..............that is what this breed needs not more people obsessed with color thats what got them in trouble to start with...,temperment is the hallmark of this breed........this breed would improve greatly if people were required to have one progeny that resulted from one black parent

i was only looking gor a choc stud for my bitch as people have asked for choc pups, but as the prespective owner know my dog they want a pup, because of her temperment, when tess was born everyone was surprised as it was a chocolate to black mating that produced her, she was the only yellow in a litter of blacks, and on her previous litter never produced any yellow herself, although it is possible for her to have all three colours in her litter if she was put with a dog carrying all three genes, for colour, the point of my post was too find out how close a mating was too close, as i have given up trying to find a chovolate stud for her, i have a nice sound, bklack labrdor, lined up, goodlooking, good temperament, good worker, i am fortuneate enough to know, most of the dogs in the family, and have also seen these work aswell, as breeding relatives seems unethical to me i wanted to know if this mating would be ok.

I'm sorry if I am partly to blame for distressing you but cannot agree, sometimes a particular colour is desired. Puppies from other breeds are often chosen for their colour ie whole or parti colours in cockers for example. If I rang a breeder to ask if they have a gold cocker puppy, because I particularly wanted one, I would take a dim view if they tried to tell me colour didn't matter and try and sell me another colour! I know what you are getting at, but chocolate labs are not "spoiling" the breed because those that dont like them dont use them and dont include them in their breeding programme. There are breeders of quality and typey chocolates, with well respected judges who have made some up,I cannot understand the prejudice against them, could you enlighten me? I find your last comment strange re: each lab having to have at least one black parent . There are plenty of lovely and titled yellows who have yellow parents!!

<these dogs need to be at least sired by a titled stud.....at the very least.>

Why?
In the UK many top studs never achieve their title and many title-holders never produce winning offspring.

It is much more important to choose the sire because of his good construction/temperament/soundness than a dog that has been made into a champion on the decision of three different people.

I know that in some countries it is almost routine to make up champions, but in the UK it is so difficult that many dogs never achieve this recognition even though they may be outstanding representative of their breed.

snomaes

Having Joint ownership of a US imported dog I must agree. The perception of a champioon title is rather different too. I had been asked by some people in the breed in USA why we use non champions in our breeding pr5ogram, because when looking at US pedigfrees nearly all the dogs are Champions (in a show pedigree).

So when looking at US pedigrees I tend to look for Specialty BIS winners as representing a good champion, as opposed to a dog that over here would win BOBs at Open shows. I would imagine that the New Open Show Certificate of Merit is equal to an American title.

In USA all shows have points, and the only stumbling blocks are the majors, but in my breed it is enough to have 5 males in some places to make a major! Also they do not compete against the champions for the awards. How many dogs would get made up here if the Champions didn't compete for the CC. If you look in the BRS Champ show results and count up all the RCC winners beaten by a Champion you would get the idea.

This is the difference in the UK. In some breeds you would be lucky to get a couple of champions made up in a year so if you relied on using only champions you would reduce to gene pool to an unsustainable extent. More important is to look at ancestors and if possible progeny of the dogs you are interested in and to compare pedigrees.

Regards, John

I did a little survey over time in our breed and have found that we normally have somewhere between two and six champions made up a year.

So far this year with 8 out of 18 sets of CCs awarded there has been one of each sex. There are a number of exhibits sitting on two CCs.

We probably get about 10 stud book numbers, and very few Junior Warrants, though there have ben two this year, after a gap of some years without any. Both of these particular dogs would have got theirs prior to the change in rules from January where so may classes do not have to be won at Open shows.

hi guys....i didn't mean a show champion ,why not a working champion.its common place in many countries to not allow dogs to be bred unless they are titled in the field in which they are born into.,.....one need not study this breed long to se the prepotence in father lines champions beget champion beget champions.......the bulk of them are sired by untitled dogs because someone thinks its the best they have ever seen....show me a great dog in this breed that is sired by non titled parents????.....................................but of course if there only six a year it would be harder...we probably have 250 show champions 50 to 60 field trial champions and probably 40 champion master hunters total

Again, Kelly, if we limited ourselves to the small numbers of FT champions, the gene pool would be reduced to a fraction. Long-term disaster!
:)

what should we go for then ????generations of untitled dogs ?????......the reason the german shepherd dog is arguably the most versitile and well recognized breed of dog in the free world is because of germanys strict breeding practices that make my views seem casual at best...selective breeding is the only ethical thing to do with dogs...we as humans have set standards as to what we deem a champion and to just diusmiss this and encourage the use of untitled dogs in a breed that is the least subject to selective breeding is not helping the breed.......who says these untitled males are better for any bitch...because their sires weren't champions either????..so that makes them better.....show me a great dog in this breed that is a top producer and comes from untitled stock.???????....no they all carry direct father lines to foundation studs....

Hi Kelly, whether we're talking about Show Champions or FT Champions, the post by Snomaes is equally valid for both. In the UK we simply do not have the numbers of opportunities to make up champions as they have in many other countries!

And of course a title doesn't improve the quality of a dog! Sometimes it purely means that the owner enjoys showing or working it. But it's the same dog for all that.
:)

hi genie!!....no ,i hear you.........and a field trial champion and a show champion in this country are total outcrosses to each other.and the true heart and soul of this breed lies in the field.the holy grail in this country is the national open,or national amatuer.[which was just won by a ten year old bitch]...........because you can't win a national championship if you don't have that intangible thing ''the heart of a champion''...that is what this breed is really all about..it is a beautiful thing ...............................sorry though i always forget you guys are on an island.........how many labs a year go field trial champion in england???...you guys are the fatherland for this breed right???...how many dogs a year do they register???.......

John?

Sorry, I dont have the figures but to become a FT CH you must will 3 open trials and the United Retriever Club, the largest national gundog club only hold 2 a year! My bet would be less that 10 FT CH's a year. It must be the hardest CH to win!

Show champions, I'd guess 10, possibly well under.

How many Labradors were bred last year? Am I right in remembering 33000? You just can't sire that many from so few champions. It would be the death knell for the breed.

I'll try to get the true figures tomorrow.

Best wishes, John

And am I right, John, in thinking that FTChs can compete in the Championships and win, just as Sh Champions can compete for CCs, and thus prevent other dogs being 'made up'?
:)

Yes, You are quite right. If you want to win you will have to beat the FT CH's. The whole dog scene is totally different in the UK to the USA. From the way I read it, almost all handlers in the US are professional and almost all dogs handled by the few non professional handlers are trained by professional trainers. (Gleaned from John and Amy Dahl's book) In this country, although advice might be sought from one of the professionals on a particular point of training most dogs are trained and handled by ordinary people.

Incidentally, knowing the popularity of chocolate Labradors, there has never been a choc FT CH! As far as shows are concerned I cannot think of a Choc SH CH either although I would guess there has been.

We just cannot breed to champions because it would restrict the gene pool far too much. The sire I picked out for Anna is not a champion although he did sire the dog who came second in the 1999 IGL Retriever Championship, the UK's Field Trials equivalent of Crufts. Sadly it is now never likely to happen :(

Best wishes, John

John, there has been Ch Cookridge Tango, apparently the first chocolate lab to become a champion in the UK. I'm guessing Ch Lawnwoods Hot Chocolate was also, but don't know whether he was UK or not.

CH. Lawnoods Hot Chocolate was a Uk ch I think, but is now (sadly) in the USA.

hi guys ...ok nevermind about the titled studs..what about sons of champions at least...but if they only have ten a year.,its hard to believe............it must not be anywhere near as dominant a sport as over here....its sort of like horse racing on a smaller scale...some dogs are trained by amatuers ......but its around sixty grand or more to champaign one to a championship because everybody wants to win ,its extremely difficult[quads and 300-400 yards water blinds are not uncommon]and the talent is deep ,real deep.......thus putting the sport out of reach for your average american but you can breed to most field trial champions without paying upfront so using champions is easier ...............hi! john...we have a few choc field champions...most are dreadful looking.....and one national champion choc,but he was out of two black parents and all blk bloodline........of course everyone used him but the catch 22 was he threw ''myopathy''............autosomal resscesive muscular dystrophy.....i don't think you have that there do you?????

No, I don't think it can be called a dominant sport! Most people in the country (even those who are interested in dogs!) are entirely unaware of its existence. (But then most people think the only dog show in the country is Crufts :rolleyes: )

I know several people who work their dogs, but not in trials or anything like that - they work them on 'real' shoots, and haven't the slightest interest in competitions.

hi genie...is horse racing big there????

Yes, very, very big...flat racing, hurdling, steeplechasing, point-to-point.....
:)

A female chocolate Lab won her British show title before Lawnwood's Hot Chocolate earned his. He was taken to the U.S. and became an American champion as well.

I read about him and looked at his photos in Labrador books for a few years in the 1980s and finally bought a grandson from Bounty Grant Kennel (Joan Koty) in central Arkansas.
Egg is now 14 years old and just happy to be alive and sleep at my feet in front of the heater.

He is Bounty Grant's Aubunique.

The son of his who is still with me is Aubunique Hot Chocolate Egg, named after his dad's nickname and his great-grandsire's official name.  We call him Choc, as did the owners of Lawnwood's Hot Chocolate.

Please see photos at   http://www.aubunique.com