Not a nice subject I know but Thursday night I managed to catch four of them at he yard and drowned them in a bin. They had all fell into a large plastic bin by the horses feed store, the feed is stored in metal bins but even so we will not take any chances. I couldn't face hitting them with a spade so I just put the hose in for 10 mins filled the bin 1/3 full and left them. For those who say rats can swim these obviously couldn't as they were dead within 5 mins. We don;t want to resort to putting poison down because of the dogs at the yard so we tried the bin trap agian and caught a few more. Any ideas though of quicker and kinder ways to get rid of them. Apart from letting one my friends working BC at them, who could probably manage all a few but some might still get away.

We once had the Council Pest Controller put down poison for rats. Harry and Piglet came in with faces dyed blue from eating the stuff. So it was an emergency trip to the vet to have an emetic injection to bring it back (washing soda down the throat - vet's first choice of treatment - didn't work). You have to get it out within an hour of ingestion. It was a nightmare...

We now have a 'live-catch' rat-trap and a powerful air rifle.

rats CAN swim but obviously if they become exhausted and cant climb the sides of the bin, they will eventually give up & drown. If you want a quicker kinder method, set a cage trap and then pick it up with a rake or similar, but in the bin of water and hold under the water....drowning is much quicker that way. of course the least cruel way to kill a rat is with a good terrier....all the rats natural endorphins are released in this totally natural scenario, and one chomp from the terrier & its all over. I have an excellent ratting team who can account for 20 in one hour!

The quickest, kindest way to kill (insert small mammal species here) is carbon dioxide. I have had the misfortune to have needed to use this means on a pair of pet rats who were badly off (Cats had got to them, but hadn't finished them off) - take a deep bucket or bin, and discharge a carbon dioxide canister into it (or use dry ice, which is easier to get in the States, as most supermarkets carry it). The gas is heavier than air, so it stays in the container - you know when it's right when you can lower a match to within a foot of the bottom of the container and it goes out (No oxygen at that level). Put in three or four rats (not so many that they can clamber over each other to get out of the CO2), which might scrabble for a moment or two trying to get out of the bin, then lie down and go to sleep. They stop breathing within about a minute and a half. Leave them, in the covered bin, for ten minutes AFTER they stop moving/breathing just to be sure.

Do NOT stick your head into the bin - CO2 asphyxiation is just as fatal to humans. Tip the bin upside down to retrieve the dead rats or use a long poo scoop/whatever if you want to preserve the CO2.

It's quick and aside from the first escape-scrabbles, there shouldn't be any signs of distress.

What is dry ice used for in the US, for supermarkets to stock it?

Often it's used for parties or in dramatic productions for 'smoke' effects - If you put a piece of dry ice in water (or punch, or whatever liquid), it releases very very cold water vapour. The dry ice itself is not particularly safe to handle, as it's cold enough to 'burn' skin - however, it can be handled carefully if it's in water itself and your hands are immersed or if you keep something between you and the dry ice.

It's also good, because it's colder than water ice, for lining coolers and the like to keep food cold.

I just remember playing with it one Halloween in a bucket of water at a party. A lot of the reptile-keeping websites do say that if you use dry ice to euthanize rodents, you've got to keep the animals away from the block of dry ice, as it WILL hurt them if they touch it. But CO2 is the most commonly accepted, most humane way of euthanizing a small mammal if you don't want to touch it in order to break its neck (Which is, incidentally, done by pinning the animal down with a pencil or dowel across its neck which is held down firmly, then grabbing the BASE of the tail and yanking sharply backwards and upwards to dislocate the vertebrae) or are too squeamish to twist off or crush the mammal's head.

Hi Sis

You needed a certain BT there!!

She would have dispatched them in double quick time.

But you ain't having her. lol

For once sis I agree (better make a note in your diary, how nice is it to hear that for a change) wouldn't want to risk her stunning good looks now would I!

Can't cope with the gassing option as that sounds far too complicated and knowing me I end up gassing myself :) Might try the trap and see if that does any good - another 2 caught today in the bin trap. Failing that I might look around for anyone with a group of terriers to come and do the job for me.

Only thing is though, that barn where they are has 2 open ends with only a metal gate, it's used to store not only food but also the big haylage and straw bails (the big circular ones) also jumps, rugs etc so would the dogs be equally as effective as it isn't totally enclosed?

You could try running them over with a heavy cylinder lawnmower, it works with mice:D
Bev

Changing the subject slightly, but has anyone else had an influx of flies this last couple of days, we have a plague of them at the moment!

and before that little sis of mine makes any comments its not my bad housekeeeping thats to blame. lol

Any ideas how to get rid of them, don't want to use the normal sprays as I have a bitch due to whelp in a weeks time and not taking any risks with chemicals.

Jayne

*cringe*

And people here gripe about cruelty to dogs....

Mice and rats may be vermin in certain situations, but they are also animals and can feel pain and fear. Rats are personable little animals - even wild/feral ones - that are very intelligent, easy to train and friendly. I dare say they're even doglike in their behaviour - the two who were my pets that I had to CO2 euthanize would lick my fingers more politely than our pup does. Mice are gregarious, often colourful and good parents to their babies.

I can't believe that a person who would care about a pet/show/working dog could be so cheerfully cruel to any other kind of animal, to be honest. If someone has to kill an animal, and has control over how it's done, then isn't it better to do it with as little pain and fear as possible?

By the way, according to the standards of the American Humane Society, drowning is not an acceptable means of euthanasia for any species. I wouldn't drown a rat, a kitten, a pup OR a baby.

There are many adults around who would have been better drowned as babies!!!

If you're talking about the lawn roller, I think Jaffa is referring to an unfortunate accident and not being serious!!

Julia & Hooligans

I don't think you should use the phrase "drowning babies" in any context - sorry, but i find that upsetting :(

Sorry Chloe didn't mean to upset anyone. Hope you know what I meant though.

Julia

Its ok - I know what you mean - I'm just supersensitive about things like that :rolleyes:

Thank you Julia, some people obviously don't read as many posts as you do:D
Bev

Some of you will remember I had a rat in my house when we were doing building work We live in a very rural area so I wasn't surprised. I love all animals and didn't want the rat to suffer e.g. *some* poisons can take a few days apparently and it's a slow death. I opted for a rat trap, the one that slams shut and kills instantly. I left it bated for a couple of days but not set. Rat duly came along and had a good scoff. On the 4th day I set the trap and whack. I heard the trap go off and in the time it took me to climb a flight of stairs the rat was dead. It was a big bugger too

Having said all of this we still heard sounds of what appeared to be another/more rats! I was mortified and had visions of being infested. So I spoke to someone who used to be a gamekeeper and he came along and put some poison onto some buttered bread and sealed it under the floor boards. There was no way the dogs could get it and the rat could no longer get into the living part of the house. I can't for the life of me remember the name of this poison but it is absolutely deadly and a very small amount could kill a human !! Apparently it acts really quickly, like within minutes. I was told that it's only available to gamekeepers and the like so maybe Sam will know what I'm talking about. Anyway, it worked, turned out it wasn't another rat but infact a mouse. I was once told that if you have mice you won't have rats and vice versa. Obviously not in this case. :-)

Happy to say that now building work is complete and new neighbour has 2 cats we no longer have mice or rats. Hope it stays that way :D

I would not drown a pup, kitten or indeed a baby. However your insuinuation that I would is a total contradiction of my original post. I asked for a kinder more humane method. Carbon Dioxide gas is not that I am aware of freely available as a rodent deterant here in the UK, if it is I stand corrected. Also, it has been well researched that humans who commit suicide through a car exhaust (Carbon Monoxide) initially lose all bodily functions however their brains are still very much active. In simple terms that means that they may suddenly think 'what an earth I am doing, I don't want to die, I want out, however the effect of the gas blocks their nervous system and they cannot for want of trying move. Surely that is a more distressful way of dying?

However lets not detract from the original post, I am not talking about pet rats here, an employee of mine has 2 pet rats who are adorable, I am talking about vermin who can and if allowed cause considerable damage even death to horses if they are allowed access to their feed. Would you I wonder still have the same concern if it was your dogs at risk.

I have no doubt that yes, they are very intelligent, however not that intelligent that I can coverse with them and suggest that for their welfare they might like too consider moving 2 miles down the road, Cockroaches, fleas, tics etc are equally as intelligent but as nobody keeps them as pets nobody gives a stuff when it comes to killing them.

My whole post was about a quick humane method of killing them and nothing more. I did not enjoy drowning them however if that is the quickest way apart from letting dogs catch them then I would rather that than gassing them.

I still think that our powerful air rifle (with special dum-dum type slugs) at close range on a rat on a cage trap is the quickest and most humane. We bought it because I didn't want to drown them, and won't put down poison any more. Just because they're vermin doesn't mean they should suffer.
:)

Which was the reason for my post - the quickest way to to kill them without suffering. Unfortunately the only people I know with guns are shot guns which I think may be way over the top.

Carbon dioxide is readily available in MANY forms... the easiest of which, in the UK, is the CO2 canister from a home soda machine (Like Soda Stream). It can also be bought in canisters for air compressors (Airbrushing) and the like. Those canisters do NOT contain carbon monoxide. You cannot buy carbon monoxide in any form, as it's produced mainly by incomplete combustion of carbon. Carbon MONOXIDE is a completely different gas - it prevents the blood from carrying oxygen, which makes you dizzy/woozy and will only cause unconsciousness near the point of death, whereas carbon DIOXIDE has an anesthetic (sleep-causing) effect immediately (in my experience, within thirty seconds) and results in asphyxiation.

If you inhaled carbon monoxide, a rescuer could drag you out of the area and you might still die even with medical care because your blood's oxygen-carrying ability is so severely impaired. If you inhaled a quantity of carbon dioxide, a rescuer could drag you out of the area even after you stopped breathing and you would probably recover with proper resuscitation, because carbon dioxide is a natural byproduct of respiration and does not do harm to the blood's ability to carry oxygen.

I'm not insinuating that you personally would drown anything more than a rat - just saying that I can't imagine taking ANYTHING's life in a fashion that is so clearly visibly stressful (struggling, vocalization, etc - I know from having rats that they DO feel stress at being immersed in water and unable to get out - bathtime was NOT amusing) to the animal in question, regardless of the species of the animal.

Pet rats are the same species as wild 'vermin' rats, just like stray dogs are the same species as pet dogs. I would not treat wild any different than I would treat tame - if it was unavoidable that they HAD to be killed, I would do so in as humane and painless a fashion as possible - and would avoid killing them at all if it were possible. Yes, even if it was my dog, cats and parrot at risk. For that matter, even if it was ME at risk... having come from a part of the United States where not only do we have Lyme fever from ticks, but also bubonic plague from small animals and rabies from mammals... not to mention that I've even been BITTEN by a rattlesnake while hiking - which a lot of folk would kill on sight as 'vermin'. Did not get envenomated - the rattler was objecting to my having stepped on him.

Dogs, horses, even my beloved parrots are not so intelligent that I could tell any one of them that it would be healthier for them if they moved elsewhere. *chuckle* Humans, half the time, aren't that intelligent either.

Fleas, cockroaches and ticks are NOT equally as intelligent as rats, as far as I know - I don't think anyone's ever successfully trained a roach to do anything other than eat or breed or hide, but rats are about as intelligent as dogs... and yes, people DO keep roaches as pets. Madagascan hissing roaches, to be precise.

I know that using the CO2 method is more expensive than some of the others, but unless you want to get 'hands-on' with a wild, frightened and probably biting rat to break its neck, it's the most humane, quickest way to kill them. This's been hashed and rehashed over and over again on various forums for feeding reptiles, and even folks who feed their reptiles live rodents (acceptable practice in the US but NOT legal in the UK as far as I am aware) seem to prefer CO2/cervical dislocation in the case of needing to kill a rodent - not drowning.

Note, I was most upset by the person who suggested the lawnmower, NOT the drowning, to be honest. That's why I replied to THAT person, though I elaborated on my reasons for saying that CO2/dislocation are the only humane means.

THAT person would be me and if you bothered to read the post underneath by Julia and the topic entitled Poor Little Mouse, you would see that I was referring to a most unfortunate and upsetting incident last week when I accidentally killed a mouse with my lawnmower. But if you thought that I was being serious I apologise, however, I cannot believe anyone would really think that squashing any animal would be a humane way to kill anything and that was what the post was asking for wasn't it? You should read more topics then you would follow the plot.
Bev

i cant bear the thought of killing rats myself, i prefer it if my dog does it, we started at six months with mice in our shed, after tess killedone she was hooked, we then added the word 'find' and when ever we say tess find she will hunt till she finds the kill out right, only problem is all small animals in her eyes are now to be killed, partly my own fault as while on a walk one day we came accross a rabbit with mixy i told her to find, she found and she killed, now our rabbits, guinea pigs and birds are under threat if someone just mentions the word find, we are at the moment putting a new command to her which means to findher toy and eventually drugs or explosives, the word 'search' is just as powerful as find. tess isnt a terrier but a labrador, is very agile and gets them everytime
tanya

We have a yorkshire Terrier that can seem to smell a rat at half a mile, the rest of the time she is a sweet demure creature.

Bev! :D

Can you picture it Jo, running round the garden with your lawnmower trying to squash a rat:D I ask you! Some people. (it may catch on though:D)
Bev

my dad uses an air rifle,they live next to farmers field,and get inundated at this time of year.they are massive like little rabbits.the rats also seem to KNOW that one has been killed and stay away for a while.i used to have pet rats,and loved them to bits,but if i could fire a rifle i wouldnt think twice about shooting one of the wild ones.my children play at my dads house and i would not risk their safety for 1 minute.the bait doesnt seem to work either so the rifle is the quickest and most fool proof method that i can think of.
mel :)

Terriers (or anyother dog for that matter!) are better....we used to shoot them with a 410 but you have to be hell of a shot to hit a moving rat & kill it every time. Loads end up being pricked or badly injured & dying a slow death :( At least the terriers (or my deerhound) are instant death or they escape unharmed

Looks like I'm on the look out for a teamof terriers then. On the subject of shooting them and at the risk of causing a riot there was a very interesting article in last weeks Horse and Hound regarding shooting foxes. It was basically saying the a higher percentage are only injured as opposed to being killed outright so surely the cances of an outright kill shooting a rat must be lower?

Run that past me again..

Most foxes are only wounded by shooting?

What alot of c*%£^ shots there must be out there. My husband would be absolutely horrified.

Or did I mis-understand that compeltely

Julia

I think it's that most foxes are shot by shotguns - it generally needs a rifle to get a clean shot. I remember at the RSPCA we used to have gangrenous foxes brought in that had been peppered, but had been too far away to kill. It's not a quick death.

You're right, you should use a rifle unless you can guarantee very very close range, and heavy shot.

Unfortunately there are alot of people out there whose view of how good a shot they are far exceeds the reality.

Julia

I am sure you can read the article on the web site however that is what it was implying. That a high percentage of foxes are actually only wounded as opposed to being killed instantly and I think it did refer to not only the choice of gun but also what ammunition is used.

Poor foxes
Gina

julia...an ex-army marksmanship instructor recently quoted foxes as one of the hardest targets to hit...even for a highly skilled marksman...so dont be too surprised.

That's why something with a quick guaranteed kill, or no injury at all, is required.

Like Dogs !! :-)

To quote from 'House of Cards': "I couldn't possibly comment."

I shoot, but wouldn't shoot a Fox unless it was point blank in front of me. They don't half shift quick.
Dawn.