I have posted this on the behaviour board because it refers to my experience and qualifications to talk about behaviour.

Last night my qualifications were called into question so I feel I must answer. I have never in the past gone into details because it has never been necessary and also because it smacks of “My dad’s bigger than your dad!” but because of the perceived slur here goes.

I have been around dogs for the better part of 60 years. The only break was for a few years during food rationing after the second world war. We had a number of dogs including a cross breed before settling on Labradors 36 years ago. I have been actively involved in training dogs for something over 40 years and started instructing at a competitive obedience training club around 35 years ago. I no longer instruct at the club having handed it over to the younger ones (trained by me) 4 years ago although I do get involved with any problem dogs at the club. I do instruct at a gundog training club and occasionally take the puppies at another "one breed" gundog society.

When I started into training my mentor was one of the top men of his time. He was a forward thinking person who organised both handler courses and instructor courses with other top men of the day lecturing. All this was a long time ago but time doesn’t stand still and as this is my interest I have kept myself up to date by reading articles, visiting other clubs and talking to people.

As most of you know, I work my dogs in the field but I also used to work obedience and occasionally judged although these days the most I do in obedience is to very occasionally steward. I also on rare occasions show a dog (Never my own!) although this is not really my forte.

For the last 25 years I’ve been involved in the organisation of eye testing sessions. We use one of the country’s (in fact the world’s) foremost canine ophthalmologist and my knowledge of eyes comes from discussing eye problems with him. At these sessions I get to talk to possibly 60 to 100 breeders in an evening so gaining a tremendous insight into what is going on in the world of dog health.

So, for what it’s worth, that is the experience I talk from. I’m just sorry that it has been felt necessary in some quarters to question my experience.

John

You didn't need to that John.

I for one respect your experience and knowledge, anyone who understands dogs only has to read your posts to see the years of experience that go into what you say.

As I have said in the past hands on experience is a far more important tool than all the book learning in the world!!!

and as you have said to me ignore em!!!!

Jayne

Those who have been on this board for some time know that you generously share your experience and knowledge John. Always good balanced common sense, which doesn't seem to be very common these days!
I feel sorry for the new pet owners who come here looking for help. It must be confusing for them to read the stuff written by newcomers, who when they've read a book or two, think that they have all answers to everything!

I agree, your experience just leaps out of your posts, but it has been interesting to read what the experience has been. Dyed in the wool dog man!

It's clear from your posts, John, that you speak from experience, which is more valuable than theoretical learning.
More power to your elbow.
:)

John you have no need to justify your knowledge to me I have benefited from it and 100% trust your knowledge

Hi John

I think that the majority of the posts you received last night show that the many Champdoggers trust your advice, there's no substitute for experience :)
Even if you don't have a flatcoat ! :D

liberty

It's a shame you felt pressurised into justifying yourself John. Most people on here respect your opinion and value your advice :)
Lara x

John, it is wonderful to have someone with so much knowledge of dogs on the board. I like champdogs because there are people like you here who are always willing to help.
Thankyou.

I believe this has been aimed at me and therefore I believe I am behoved to answer.

I am not prepared or even interested in the thread or postings that appears to have caused this outburst, needless to say John is looked on as and icon of knowledge, probity and common sense and I do not doubt his experience and ability.

The behavioural side of dog care as everyone knows is fairly new, I am also aware that it is either frowned, scorned or ridiculed by the more traditional and may I say older style trainers.

However it's here it's scientific and it works without the need for old style brutality or fear training and please don't jump on this and say I am suggesting that anyone on this forum trains this way.

There is space for both the obedience trainer and the behaviourist. My personal view is you should be a combination of both but that tends to bother the purists of both factions.

Because someone is questioned re their comments irrespective of their standing in this forum (which is a small area in the whole scheme of things) doesn't mean that prams and toys should come into play

John has been on this forum and indeed on this earth longer than I have. However this does not give him or anyone else the god given right to be correct on every subject or be the font of all knowledge in every aspect of animal and in particular canine behaviour and care. I am not going to demeen myself by saying this is an open forum and every.......blah blah blah as has been trotted out on so many occassions.

My mentor is John Fisher he and many others have had an affect in my knowledge and stance. however I also have (like John whom I look up to and respect as he has worked with dogs for longer than I can remember), have a love of the animals not just a specific breed but the wonder of the dog in general. I don't just work full time in dogs I live them breath they are hobby and my life.

I may be doing something right as I have recently been asked by two major institiutions to be their consultant behaviourist, it doesn't mean I am the best or the only font of knowledge just one of many.

That means I do not know everything if I lived for another 2000 years I doubt I would scratch the surface of what is a complex area. Not 60 years but 22 years so please accept that others have a point of view and a valid point especially if having studied the individual question relating to the original posting.

As a matter of interest I also still train and work Gundogs to a very High degree, they work on some of the best shoots in great Britain.

I personally don't enter them into trials for my own reasons and beliefs in this type of competition, I also do not enter dogs in obedience for the same reason. However this is a personal belief and decision and is no reflection on those who choose this path

So please pick up your toys and put them back in said pram and get involved in something that is important other than ego's, and that is the posting in THE GENERAL CATEGORY.

This is so important I cannot believe there has been only fifteen postings If people truly care about dogs then get onto this NOW.

Do not allow the Welsh assembley and this Government to subsidise this evil trade.

Regards

Doglistener

Doglistener

Perhaps you ought to READ the other threads where John's advice has been SOUGHT - not proffered. He is not a self-centred person with a vested interest in self-advertising a profession.

I also wonder whether Jan Fennell has copywrited the name "Dog Listener"?

Perhaps that ought to be checked out - on a professional basis of course - before any more toys are thrown out of the pram - stick the dummy back in the mouth to stop any more bawling & play with the rattle rather than the keyboard!

ditto all that has been said - John is a true assett to this board here to genuinely help others. He has saved many a person's sanity - mine included - although I was already a lost cause:D. He also provides a very good shoulder and is very supportive of others who are also trying to help. John has never said he knows everything or is the font of all knowledge. I consider John to be a mate who will be there to help - I only have to ask.

Dog listener - you appear to be very knowledgeable too about your sphere of work - but like John does - you need to understand that there are different ways for different folks. You are a new member of this board and the respect and confidence that John has earned comes with time. I'm sure you mean well and you are clearly trying to follow the terms of the forum - but there are moral unwritten terms too. I welcome you to the board. A new or different approach is always welcomed especially if it is from a background of experience, but please be aware that the written word on a forum such as this is often misinterpreted as you an only see the written word - not the facial expressions or body language that go with it. Also that it is OK to have a different opinion or tactic - John and I have had that pleasure in the past:D it's down to how you handle it.

regards

Pam n the boys

Lokis Mum

I am not called The Dog Listener I am called doglistener all one word and I have had that business name long before the book. I have posted this before when someone asked me but I note it was removed as part of an edit.

I also strongly resent the implications of your last remarks........Perhaps that ought to be checked out - on a professional basis of course - before any more toys are thrown out of the pram - stick the dummy back in the mouth to stop any more bawling & play with the rattle rather than the keyboard!

I have never questioned Johns or anyones's else's undoubted knowledge, commitment, ptobity, and ability please check out my postings! And you will see that

In quite a few of them advise has been sought from me, not just proffered. I therefore do not either deserve or expect denigrating insinuating remarks such as these and would hope that admin may pick up on this point.

Regards

Doglistener

I believe the phraseology was carried on from YOUR post previously in which you said , and I quote:

So please pick up your toys and put them back in said pram and get involved in something that is important other than ego's

Melody

Just as I feel John doesn't need to justify himself to anyone - neither do you doglistener. No one person holds any monopoly on anything doggy whether it be breeding, training or general dog care.

The resident rottweilers do tend to unleash themselves every now and again - perhaps you could put some of your behaviour modification skills into practice :D
The national chest thumping competition about experience is unnecessary and unimpressive on all sides.
Lara x

By unimpressive I am not referring to your abilities or experience but the fact that you needed to post it at all.

hi john,
although i am somewhat of a newcomer to this forum,i have read many of your posts with intrest and you didnt have to justify yourself to anyone on here, you obviously have lots of experience and i am positive you are a very valuable asset to many people on here :)
jane.

John,

In the few months that I have been reading the board, I have come to respect and trust the advice that you have given people. When I post a question, I am usually hoping that you (amongst other people) will reply to it. :)

Thanks,

Sarah

When i first posted on here, I came on a bit like a bull in a china shop and had a little disagreement with John - but we now actuallu exchange private mails from time to time and i have to say i really do respect him, and, heck, like him!!! :D. I think he has not only experience but an open mind, and he is truly a good person to debate with, as he will be honest and forthright but will also listen to everybody :)

Doglistener, I am sure you too have much to contribute. People will not always agree and i feel, the best way is to sometimes agree to disagree with each other ;)

Best wishes

Lindsay.

doglistener--i too have a great respect for john----respect is earned, and as someone new to the board, youd find a little bit of respect will go a long way !!!

oooh dizzy, that was my thoughts exactly. Chin up John, us old timers know you have a good sensible dog head....(and you know my thoughts on dog listeners or whatever they call themselves nowadays!!!!:( )

Dear All

I have had quite a few e mails privately supporting my stance but they do not wish to put there heads above the parapet so to speak.

Don't get me wrong they have all said that John is very helpful and knowledgable.

But that doesn't excuse a forum that makes people concerned to add their comments on the main forum for fear of verbal reprisals? I am sorry but you can't have some sort of Matriach Clique lording over any discussion group.

And have all the ones suggesting I need experience and must respect John even bothered to read any of my postings? Has Sam even bothered to read my reply on this thread : If that was the case he/she would know that I embrace both factions Obedience and Behaviour and that I stated that the Behavioural side of dog care as everyone knows is fairly new, I am also aware that it is either frowned, scorned or ridiculed by the more traditional and may I say older style trainers.

There is space for both the obedience trainer and the behaviourist. My personal view is you should be a combination of both but that tends to bother the purists of both factions.

What does really concern me is we have had all these replies and platitudes and support to what is a piffiling argument concerning Ego's and yet I have got back in the General Section and the Welsh Assembly and Puppy Farm Issue. Something of real impact and importance and not one has posted anything on their. Especially as my plea at the end of my reply for people to do so.

regards

doglistener

Doglistener ....

As an interested reader of the threads on this board , I have watched this situation develop. In my rather humble opinion it is unnecessary . John has been and WILL continue to be a great help to many people. You , as a newcomer , have shown that you too are experienced and helpful.

The 'I have lurkers supporting me' stance is a well known one on Usenet :) and to be offensive to the Forum members is rather like shooting yourself in the foot don't you think?

Quote ' I am sorry but you can't have some sort of Matriach Clique lording over any discussion group' ...that is a very offensive statement , it is sexist and it was unneccessary

The very fact that John felt moved to post on a seperate thread the details of his experience should have shown you exactly how affected he had been by what you said. The decent thing to have done would have been to not reply ....but no , you felt the need to reply and indeed , to aggrevate the situation.

I started reading your posts with interest , thinking that , at last , we may have a behaviourist here who will be worth reading...what a shame Stan that instead it has degenerated into this rather unprofessional confrontation

Melody

Well said, Melody

Daisy

Hi
Im pretty new here but both John and doglistener have been a great help on advise to help me along with my GSD. I didnt see the post where this all kicked off but I see no need for any one to explain them selves. Thank you BOTH for all the helpfull hints:)

Also I no it may sound daft but what exactly is a doglistner? :o :rolleyes:

When I first joined here, John was one of the people that ALWAYS tried to help in whichever way he could, he still continues to do this without conflict or nastiness. As others have said, respect is earned and John certainly gained mine within a very short space of time, he should not need to explain himself.
Dawn.

anyone who loves dogs as much as these two (and everyone who visits this board) must be ok in my book.
so thanks to john and doglistener and equally to everyone else, expert or not on the board who offers help, advice and support.
we're all equals here, yes some are better qualified than others (especially me who has had a dog for ooooo, 7 weeks now!) but who cares, we come here with a common love for our dogs and let's not forget that!
Happy Wednesday everyone! :)
Lu x

I was amazed when I saw that John had started this thread because he does not have to justify himself to anyone on here and its sad that he felt he had to I was one of the first to post on the other thread because I count John as a good friend and as a friend is always there to offer support and his help is available to anyone at all,but good friend or not we have had our disagreements,I can accept that there are lots of differing approaches to training dogs and all other aspects of dogdom but surely we can share the knowledge without resorting to insults and nastiness .
Lots of people log on to this site everyday and get help a lot dont even post on the boards the wide range of experience on here is what makes it such a brilliant site when people resort to insulting others they dont hurt the site they just show themselves up.

In answer to the Dog listener question Ive no idea what a dog listener is I assumed it reffered to jan fennels book but if you click on doglistener profile on here it promotes a website for a trainer
Re: The ruling Matriarch comment well thats just silly as I believe the owner and Main admin of this site is a male

I have taken John's advice which has been given in the utmost of genuine help for me and my girls and has never asked for any thanks back ! John gives his time to this board and people for his love and respect of dogs and a genuine liking of people !

He will not lecture but will calmly and thoughtfully reply to give the the person a way to understand the problem,why it is happening and then a possible solution without making you feel like you have failed in the first place. He gives confidence in your abilities as well as the dog which I think is so important.

He has a way , it is John's way, and has the repect of many people on here.

Lucy

I've always trusted John's advice, he is a very caring person where dogs are concerned, he has always been wiling to give us the benefit of his knowledge no matter how stupid the question my be.
Having met him this year I can say he is one of the nicest most genuine people I have the pleasure to know.

Ingrid

hi guys....wow.this same stuff goes on over here!!!!..its just silly...john is fabulous ands bends over backwards to help people...........and i would disagree the behavioral science is related to dogs is relativley new,we have been at here for at least 35 years with concerted effort,we have more or less disected behavior to the twentyth power....the new behavioral movement involvles advanced behavioral science combined with technology.and it is broad a sweeping because it works,but thats another story...................the bottomline is john and doglisterner both give good advice.the dynamics of these boards is what behavioral science needs to study,so much more complicated than it seems on the surface,but most people seem to want to help others which is of course the ''most important thing in life''.................................remember we need more..good kharma.!!!!!!!!!!!!....

I am going to pologise for my posting of earlier this morning - I broke my own rule and I posted my reply BFORE I had a cup of coffee - DogListner- you are obviously genuinely interested in dogs - as are we all on this Board. You do have valuable advice to proffer - as does John. Let's not decline into namecalling etc - you both have valid points of view and valuable advice to offer to those who come on asking for advice without knowing the first thing about dogs. Please - let's remember that this forum is ALL ABOUT DOGS!

Margot

Thank You Margot

It takes a strong and honest personality to apologise publicly on a forum such as this. I can only say you must have both of these traits in abundance.

Once again thanks and apology humbly accepted

Stan
Doglistener

May I take the opportunity to answer Melodysk the statement that I started it by saying So please pick up your toys and put them back in said pram and get involved in something that is important other than ego's, I think it is slightly unfair to quote out of context and the posting and comment wasn't to an individual.

What I actually said was:

So please pick up your toys and put them back in said pram and get involved in something that is important other than ego's, and that is the posting in THE GENERAL CATEGORY.

This is so important I cannot believe there has been only fifteen postings If people truly care about dogs then get onto this NOW. Do not allow the Welsh assembley and this Government to subsidise this evil trade.

If it was taken as an individual attack then I humbly apologise but if you look at the whole posting it is a generalisation.

I was trying to emphaasise the importance of the Welsh Assemblys intention of subsidising Puppy farming in Wales

Regards

Doglistener

Do not allow the Welsh assembley and this Government to subsidise this evil trade.

Stan ..you missed my point , I was simply showing that the poster you were complaining about was simply using the same phraseology that you had used first

The context was not a point

Agree with you completely re behavior. It is as old as Pavlov's experiments with pigeons, dogs .. and his own son! Probably older, in fact. Obedience is all about shaping behavior after all.

Cheers,

Stacey

Hi John,

The only qualification I ever look for from anyone on this Board is a clear and consistent indication that they personally have owned, cared for and lived with dogs. Even though I am sure we have disagreed (happens to me with everyone!) I value and appreciate the opinion of anyone that has "been there and done that." Training methods and behavioural theories about dogs change every decade, maybe more often. Everyone needs to make their own choice about what they are comfortable doing and everyone should have enough "dog sense" to understand that every dog is different and no one technique is right for every dog.

In my opinion, you are very well qualified to talk about behaviour and I learn something with all your posts.

Warm regards,

Stacey

dog listener--if the persons who have contacted you privatley are such as they cant do it openly :i rest my case: the ones standing by john, are the ones who dare say it in public :D

I was going to post almost the same thing Dizzy :) If they cant join in a debate here I am not interested to know they have supposedly sent support messages privately. It is CD and it input from its many members that interests me.

I have had a lot of information and help from John and other posters since I got my two babes and always look out for their replies as I know they will be concise, helpful and FRIENDLY.

I probably miss a lot of what could be good advice from people who I find antagonistic and full of themselves so I tend not to bother reading their posts - I just cannot bring myself to trust them. I could come up with a lot of things I supposedly have experience in and which could be believed by others who read this site and what I say may not be true. A lot of the antagonists come and go and so in my mind my not reading their posts is not so bad - they may not have been trustworthy in any case. John is still here to back up his advice/opinions isnt he so any advice he gives me is very gratefully received.

Gina

Hi John, thats a very impressive CV you have there!! :) :) But I think most of the members who have been here a while already know of your experience & I`m really sorry you felt you had to put it down. Even tho we may not have seen eye to eye (pun intended!) :) sometimes, you`ve certainly given me some sound advice that I could trust.

Christine, Spain.

I've had cause to ask Johns advice on a few occasions, and the thing that struck me most apart from the sound advice, was how he comes across as a thoroughly nice person, the kind of person you would want to sit down with, next to a roaring log fire and just listen to his wonderful experiances he's enjoyed, what better way to spend an evening with the dogs curled up at your feet, in my book any one who makes that impression on me across miles and an internet connection, has to be a pretty special man. Thanks John your a diamond.

OMG:( I'm going to come back to this one- once I've taken 10 very deep breaths- only then will I reply:(:(

Robert- you have hit the nail right on the head with that remark:D That's how many people see John:)

John- I'm so sorry you felt you had to justify yourself:( It was quite upsetting to come on and find such a post by yourself:( Chin up;) x x x

Stacey x x x

Just got in from the dog club and found these posts! What can I say!!! Thankyou one and all!

Now please, put this all away and forget it ever happened and let’s get back to normal. To me there is no difference between a good canine behaviourist and a good dog trainer. No one can hope to get the best out of a dog without an appreciation of how that dog thinks. We try to keep abreast of current thinking and utilise in within our own training. The days of what I always call "The crash bang wallop school of dog training" went out 30 years ago and these days we try to use our brain rather than our brawn to train a dog.

Dog Listener has a lot to offer the forum and I hope he stays around to help people. I agree with virtually everything he has said on the board so far and am sure that we will all benefit from his posts.

Once again, thankyou and best wishes to you all. John

"I started reading your posts with interest , thinking that , at last , we may have a behaviourist here who will be worth reading...what a shame Stan that instead it has degenerated into this rather unprofessional confrontation"

Well said, I was thinking the same myself a few days ago, however, I find my opinion has changed somewhat after the recent posts. I am a fairly new to the forum and hope if I have a problem John will advise me. From his previous posts I know he will offer advice and not lecture and make me feel a failure, which gives a comfort feeling if you are nervous about posting.

Don't let them get to you John, look at all the support you have on here.

Sandra

Now - what HAVE the dogs been up to whilst we've all been thumping drums???;-) ;-)

Back to the pooper-scooping!!

Margot

I have just read all the posts on this new thread and wish to make comment, especially as it was my post re the yellow-eyed lab that started this off. I am a relative newcomer to the board but I have read almost all the postings for several months now and it is obvious to me that there are several very knowledgeable people on the forum from whom a lot can be learned. John, of course is one of these, he gives so much of his time and his knowledge is vast. But Doglistener is another whose experience and knowledge is invaluable, and although he is a relative newcomer he, like John, puts great time and effort into helping others. It is just very unfortunate that what started out as an interesting debate on yellow-eyed labs turned into personal attacks based on length of time on the board, and loyalties, rather than on rational comments re the topic. The argument got hijacked by some silly and illogical comments (contributing nothing to the topic), generated by loyalty to John. Doglistener was cast as the villain and it went downhill from there. As a newcomer it has struck me that the board can be quite cliquey and personal. “Old” posters assume that you know them, their dogs and various aspects of their private lives. Comments are made that really belong in private emails. It is not exactly welcoming and can make the board feel a bit like a club for the in-crowd. It seems that when a new person appears who is knowledgeable and outspoken and challenges the opinion of a resident guru the troops close ranks against them and, in this case, start playing the man instead of the ball. For example, how petty and childish to challenge Doglistener’s use of his name – does this negate his excellent advice on handling a dog?

I think it was quite unnecessary for John to have to defend himself by giving us his credentials, his credibility is apparent in his contributions. It was actually provocative, and a sure way of rallying the troops to his support against the perceived attacker. I read it with embarrassment and wished that John hadn’t resorted to what he himself described as bragging about his dad being bigger…. The only result, as was absolutely predictable, is that the rift is now bigger. I appreciate John's advice enormously but we will all be the poorer in our knowledge about our dogs if the board's hostility deters Doglistener from the excellent contributions that he has been making recently to it. The board should be big enough to embrace all opinions, and assess them on their merits, not on who they might agree or disagree with. I really have to say, as a newcomer, I have been fairly disgusted with the tenor of this whole “debate”. It does the board no credit.

You are entitled to your opinion Kazdap

John

Me and my boys like your advice & feel it a bit sad that you feel the need to spell out your experience.
We'd like to be close enought to come to your classes,but there you go.

Julia & Hooligans

Hi Kazdap

I have no axe to grind with anyone, as I have not been a member of this board for very long, but I have benefitted from John's advice, while I'm sure Doglistner has many valid points that would help.As for your point about him being cast as a villain, I think his emotive posts did not help :)

I feel board members felt they wanted to support John, for the help he has given them in the past; and hopefully the future too.

liberty

I've had my coffee this morning - and I'm saying no more!!

Hello Kazdap.
I wasnt going to bother with this thread anymore but just wanted to say that no one wants to deter people to share their knowledge on here after all that is what this is an information exchange if you notice a few of the people who posted on here are longtime board members who havent posted for a while they were not being rallied they came to say somethng in support of a person they respect I did say I was ssurprised that John felt the need to tell his experience .
I just hope that Doglistener,john etc.. can carry on sharing their knowledge I for one do not know a lot about training and behaviour and have got lots of advice from here and made some lovely friends.
I think its naughty of other people to refer to posters as resident rottweilers and matriarchs just because they happen speak up for a friend.
Im sorry you think the board is cliquey But stick around you will see that we dont all always see eye to eye and a little heated discussion is a healthy thing as long as it doesnt get too personal that is the key not to resort to personal attacks its difficult I know when you get fired up about something but the written word is so cold you dont know how things are meant.
Anyway Nuff sed Im off to the vets with some rescue dogs more my forte :) :)

Hi Kazdap,

"For example, how petty and childish to challenge Doglistener’s use of his name – does this negate his excellent advice on handling a dog?"

This point I do not agree is petty and childish. My first reaction on reading the signature "doglistener" was that this is a person who feels they need to reinforce their own perception of themselves as a expert, in case those reading his posts did not come to the same conclusion themselves. I also found the length of responses, which are like regurgated text book material in many cases, as further indication that this is someone who is worried that their credibility may be called into question. In other words, "see how much I know, here's everything I can fit into a response on this topic (whether or not it responds directly to the question asked)".

Now, I enjoy reading Doglisteners posts. I am not calling his expertise into question. In my personal view, it is as informed as anyone who has lived and worked with dogs. I think the reaction of members on this board would have been less volatile if doglistener had come onto the board as just plain Stan and had taken the time to think about each question and specific situation described, rather than continually having the need to prove himself.

Regards,

Stacey