Hi everyone,

Just a quick lab question. Some months ago I temporarily rehomed a black lab with yellow eyes. He had been a problem dog and continued to be with me. He ended up back with the breeder. I was told by someone that you can't trust a lab with yellow eyes, is there any truth in this? Thanks! :)

In a word, No! The breed standard calls for darker eyes and light eyes tend to make the dog look more manevolent but as to anything else, no, it's just like blue or green eyes in humans, just a colour.

Best wishes, John

Hi John

Unfortunately that is not the case I must agree I thought the same as you then a few years ago I read a book by Joe Irving called Training Spaniels it's probably the best gundog and Spaniel Training book I have ever read.

In their he states that Spaniels with yellow eyes tend to be stubborn unreliable and difficult to train.I thought this was codswallop at the time and wrote to him asking how he came to that conclusion though he couldn't give me scientific evidence he quoted many cases regarding this.

However in my profession I have now come across quite a number of Spaniels Labs etc with yellow eyes and have found this to be the case, every single one was stubborn and difficult.

So I started studying things like cocker rage syndrome also known as Golden cocker rage syndrome which is colour and sex related and only affects single colour Males never females and never blue roan, bi or tri colour. and can also affect American Cocker Spaniels, Bernese Mountain Dogs, Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, Dobermans, English Bull Terriers, English Springer Spaniels, German Shepherds, Golden Retrievers, Pyrenean Mountain Dogs and St. Bernard’s The gene that causes the rage syndrome lies in the genetic coding that defines the colour.

I have therefore due to my own observation and experience come to agree with Joe Irving and come to the conclusion that dogs with yellow eyes that would normally have brown or other coloured eyes may be affected by the genetic disposition that causes the eye colour in the first place and that is why they may be so intractable difficult to train and stubborn.

I would be interested if anyone else has had any experience in this area

Regards

doglistener

I have now

In all my very many years in dogs I have been involved with the training of literally thousands with all manner of eye colouring and can assure you that it is complete codswallop! It would be like saying that all brown eyed people are mass murderers!

The rage analogy is a proven point, also the eye problems in very light Goldens and I have no doubt that breeding to fulfil a fashion is the reason in these cases but there is no fashion reason in light eyed Labradors!

Incidentally an extremely well known working man recommends the feeding of onions in his book and onions are very bad for a dog fed in quantity as he recommends! I accept Jo Irving is a very good trainer, I have his book "Gundogs, their learning chain! But there is still places in his book which I can't agree with.

Regards, John

Cream Spanish Water Dogs must have "yellow" eyes, well lets say this is preferable. My girl with yellow eyes is loving, extremely obedient and intelligent. She only became a bit mad after my break in a year ago and who can blame her, but she is slowly getting back to her old self again.

hopefully repeating part of my statement so there is there will be no confusion

I have come to the conclusion that dogs with yellow eyes that would normally have brown or other coloured eyes may be affected by the genetic disposition that causes the eye colour in the first place and that is why they may be so intractable difficult to train and stubborn".

I have not said that dogs with normally yellow eyes suffer from this problem.

doglistener

I'm sorry but NO genetic problem which affects the eye could possibly affect the brain which is where temperament and trainability comes from! The only way there could be any link between one and the other is if a dog bearing one genetic fault was specifically bred for another genetic aspect. In this particular case, as light eyes is a disqualifying feature in a Labrador in the show ring then no one would deliberately breed for it.

John

Hi John

May I ask you in what capacity you make this statement. And what studies you have completed to make you believe or think that your statements are correct? I have seen a number of your postings and in most of the cases they are ok, you are obviously knowledgable with regards to the basic requirements and behaviour of dogs and are able to lucidate your comments well.

But as a simple engineer (your words not mine) and I say this (because you have mentioned this on a number of these forums) may I ask how you have based your conclusions. can I also ask how you have dealt with "thousands of dogs" once again your words not mine, in a capacity that is not linked to a professional canine basis. This is an open forum and everyone's views are of course welcome, however if you are to make a statement that is as pertinent and forceful as yours. Then you must be able to back it up with with either individual knowledge or hard facts. These should be based on your personal dealings with this type of dog, with this type of eye colour. As indeed I have tried to do.

I have copied your statements below, as in my conclusion you have made a statement not a fact though you have presented it as a fact.
Perhaps you can explain where your knowledge base comes from.

May I also ask if the genetic disposition in the colouration of the dog has a serious impact why can't the genetic requirements for the eye colourant also have an impact? I would refer you to Albino's and their eye dispositions and longlevitude and dispositions.

Doglistener

Doglistener
Your statements are shown below.

"In all my very many years in dogs I have been involved with the training of literally thousands with all manner of eye colouring and can assure you that it is complete codswallop! It would be like saying that all brown eyed people are mass murderers!"

"I'm sorry but NO genetic problem which affects the eye could possibly affect the brain which is where temperament and trainability comes from! The only way there could be any link between one and the other is if a dog bearing one genetic fault was specifically bred for another genetic aspect. In this particular case, as light eyes is a disqualifying feature in a Labrador in the show ring then no one would deliberately breed for it."

In what capacity you make this statement? Many many years of experience.

Maybe you can tell me where my reasoning is wrong?

When you mate a dog the resultant puppies are a combination of the genes of the sire and dam. You can only get out what you put in. This is not strictly true because occasionally a gene mutates and depending on what that gene is responsible for is what will manifest its self in future generations.

Case 1/ In a particular case, a breed at the moment suffers from glaucoma. In around 1980 it was first diagnosed in that breed but only in one dog and it was not until the 1990’s that it reared its head again. In order for glaucoma to show both sire and dam must be carriers so this could not be the original dog! Before that, the sire of this dog went blind and lost an eye with an undisclosed eye problem. At that time eye testing was in its infancy and to my knowledge it was never determined what the reasons were. Not that it’s surprising as anyone around at that time will appreciate. But again, for the same reason as the other dog, this could not be the first! I believe myself that I can trace it back to a dog born in the 1950’s (Take two affected but unrelated lines and trace back to a common ancestor)

Case 2/ In another case and another breed, we find in eye testing that we get more failures from a particular eye problem with very pale dogs than in dogs with a darker coat!

In case 1/ the first (Diagnosed dog) was himself and in his progeny, a very big winner in the show ring so the reasons for the spread are easy to see.

Similarly, in case 2/ the colour of the dogs in the show ring is considerably lighter than it was 20 to 30 years ago so a case could easily be made out for the spread being exacerbated by fashions in the show ring. A carrier doing well in the ring and that’s always a possible outcome.

Now light eyed Labradors. As I said, light eyes are classed as a fault in the breed so no one is going to deliberately breed for them. Pet breeding could cause possibly cause some trouble but that is really only going to be a local problem because no one would put one in the show ring and pet people would normally only be selling to people close to where they live. Similarly you could point to the working people who would not be quite so concerned with the breed standards but again, apart from the big 4 or 5 kennels almost all working dogs never leave their area. If I had a litter from my Anna I would have no difficulty selling them to local working people but no one over 50 miles away has ever seen her work. (Not strictly true because she qualified for a national final a couple of years ago but even that was held only about 60 miles up the road.)

Light eyed Labradors are just not going to be bred from in the numbers to do any harm therefore the light eye is just that, a light eye as in the case of a human with blue eyes.

I’m glad you agree with most of the things I say as in fact I agree with most of what you say but one thing I found out many years ago. If you lock 6 instructors in a room and leave them there with food and water for a fortnight, at the end of that time they would still be arguing about the best way to train the first exercise!

Regards John

From reading previous posts, John has extensive knowledge about the Lab. His advice is pertinent to the breed, and not all other breeds. Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding is taking place, Dog Listener deals with many breeds and John knows his Labs

liberty ;)

I agree Liberty That John is a very experienced dog man and not just labradors I would put my total faith in his knowledge of dogs and his kindness in training methods , many people have gained help from his advice and What is also commendable is that he doesnt ram his opinions down peoples throats unlike some people he replies to questions usually with best regards ors best wishes.
Quote from Dog Listener >May I ask you in what capacity you make this statement. And what studies you have completed to make you believe or think that your statements are correct? I have seen a number of your postings and in most of the cases they are ok, you are obviously knowledgable with regards to the basic requirements and behaviour of dogs and are able to lucidate your comments well.<

I ask this what amount of training can give someone experience? and My answer would be not much !experience comes with learning over many years.
And the fact that DL has made it his/her business to comment on other of johns postings Why? we post on here to try and help people with our own experiences not to be examined and pulled apart by so called experts,Its very annoying
Yellow eyes in Labs are undesirable but in my many years of experience have made not a jot of difference to the temperaments and for my tuppenceworth I would say that the choc/liver connection often affects the eye colour.

Hi all

I think if you read my first postings you will see that I was also extremely sceptical when this was first mooted in Joe Irvings book.

It is only from years of observation that I have come to the conclusion that Joe was right. As a matter of interest Joe is one of the most respected gun dog trainers in the country and has been dealing with dogs for over 40 years sadly he now has arthritus and a heart condition and can sadly no longer train his beloved "wee uns". as he calls his dogs

I have been training dogs for 22 years mainly gun dogs at first so I have a little knowledge of labradors as well. I started studying ethology about 7 years ago and felt that the old ways of training were too harsh and became a full time behaviourist 5 years ago I treat 20/25 different dogs per week of all breeds and sizes so I do have some experience and background to work on. I also keep extensive records and ask many questions regarding the dogs provenance

I am sorry that Mattie thought my comments re John's previous posting was derogatory I was asking John what capacity or study he had made on Yellow eyed dogs not his postings in general which I said were ok and that he is obviously knowlegable and lucid in his comments.

I am not ramming things down people throats that old chesnut is always used when someone disagree's or defends another but my job means that I look at all aspects of behaviour and that includes genetic affects.

The comment by bulldogowner is to some extent not relevant to this discussion as we were talking about yellow eyes no bi-coloured.

And I didn't understand the relevance of the case studies we are not talking about glaucoma or eye defects I believed we were discussing the behavioural affects of a genetic code that produces yellow eyes. I will repeat that cocker rage syndrome is housed in the gene that causes the single colour.

If I hadn't been alerted to the fact by Joe's book I would never have tried to coroborate Joe's statement and therefore would also be extremeley sceptical of any suggestion that yellow eyes in a normally brown eyed dog has a detrimental effect not as a show dog but from a training and behavioural angle.

Mattie chose to make statement "we post on here to try and help people with our own experiences not to be examined and pulled apart by so called experts,Its very annoying"

Which is exactly what she has done with that statement I was trying to bring my experiences to bear on a matter in question because I chose to question and disagree with someone who is clearly well respected on this forum I find I am attacked in the same hypocritical way my accusers have judged my postings

In the end John is right, put 10 trainers or behaviourists in a room and I doubt you would get a consensus and each one would have his own methods and study program.

What you will get is a wide font of knowlege. which is what these forums are all about

Regards

Doglistener

Hi,
I think part of the problem is that because the yellow/pale eye gives the dog such a hard, staring expression, people expect the behaviour to be different to the dog with the normal soft 'melting' expression which is given by the dark iris colour.
:)

Hi Jeangenie

I understand where you are coming from and to some extent agree with your comments

However I have not looked at this situation with regard to malevonency, but from a purely behavioural aspect..What happened was I was alerted to the fact by Joe's book, I then added eye colourant to my questionaire with the sole reason of disproving this theory.

Unfortunately it didn't, and I would add that there are very few behaviourists or trainers who are including unusual eye colouration to their provenance questionaires, my questionaires are three pages long and are very detailed

My question is how can people who are into dogs or dog rescue understand this trait if they are not asking and recording the correct questions against this behavioural trait with regard to each particular dog and eye colouration.

By the way I believe it is important to stress that this syndrome is not just peculiar to labs other breeds are also affected in particular English Springers, I have yet to see yellow eye in a Welsh Springer, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Once again I would ask for any input negative or positive but not personal with regard to my findings re this trait.

Regards

Doglistener

LOL - I was told many years ago never to 'trust' a German Shepherd with light eyes!
Lara x

hi,
i have a bulldog pup with different coloured eyes (one is blue one is brown) there is nothing wrong with his temprement apart from being a little stubborn (but my other 3 bulldogs are more stubborn than him) he is as obiedient as a bulldog could be and very loving and loyal to me,my husband,and he is extremely good natured and patient with our daughter.
so i agree with you john,just because his eyes are different colours does not make him less obiedient or make him more prone to being bad tempered and difficult than any other dog that appeared to be (lets say "normal").
its all in the handling of a dog...whats the saying.............its not the dog its the OWNER...............
jane.

Hi Jane,
Does your bulldog have a lot of white on him? I ask because blue eyes in this situation has a link with deafness. It is possible that your bulldog is deaf in the ear on the same side as the blue eye. This won't affect him in any way as a pet dog, but should rule him out of a breeding programme.
:)

hi jeangenie,
hes fawn and white (mostly fawn) but the side he has the blue eye on he has a white patch over it,his eyes and hearing has been checked and our vet said he can hear and see okay.
cant remember if he said it was walleye or wollyeye now???maybe someone could answer it for me:)
i knew he couldnt be bred from,the person who bred him hadnt got a clue basically she was a first time breeder with £££££ signs in her eyes his littermates sold for £1500 and we brought him as he was the last one left for £1200 or £1300 i cant remember now
it has not made him less of a dog,hes a pleasure to be around.
shame really as im lead to belive he comes from good lines with nine champions on his pedigree,although i suppose it makes no difference as he is not up to show standard (because of his blue eye) and he cant be bred from (because of his blue eye).
but we still all love him to pieces:) hes a great dog.
jane:)

Just out of interest, what test did the vet do the check his hearing? (Without the BAER electronic equipment there's no way the vet will be able to tell if he can hear in both ears or not!)

He sounds a lovely - yes, the walleye puts him out of the showring, but won't bother him! He'll still be a great pet!
:)

hi jeangenie,
yes he was BAER tested it was done as a routine test as he has a blue eye vet said it was better to be safe and have him tested,rather than be sorry.
couldnt understand why his breeder didnt do it??? not knocking her she sold us a beautiful dog, but i think she made some maybe ill-imformed decisions.
but then again i dont suppose many people come across blue-eyed bulldogs.
jane:)

Thanks for this info. I persevered with the dog, and the previous owner did too, before putting him back to the breeder - It just seemed a coincidence that he happened to have yellow eyes.

hi guys....i too believe light eyes can be indicitive in labs because it appears in what i call psuedo-blacks...or black that were the product of breeding yellow to chocolate breedings.even yellow and choc's of such can have a light eye...it is a red flag...incorrect eye color generally does not occur in labs without poor breeding and lack of attention to color.....though i don't think you can go buy that alone atypical coat or eye color in a lab indicates poor breeding...............there are other color-linked traits in dogs''ie.deaf white,but i think light eyes is more just poorly bred as opposed to color-linked......

So I started studying things like cocker rage syndrome also known as Golden cocker rage syndrome which is colour and sex related and only affects single colour Males

THIS IS ABSOLUTE RUBBISH! I have studied Rage Syndrome and co-own a website dedicated to it - http://www.cockerspanielrage.org.uk There have been almost as many cases of rage syndrome in female cockers as in males and there have also been cases (not many I admit) of bi colours and particolours.

The gene that causes the rage syndrome lies in the genetic coding that defines the colour.

I WOULD BE VERY INTERESTED TO FIND OUT WHERE YOU GOT THIS FROM AS I AM NOT AWARE THAT THIS HAS BEEN PROVEN.

In their he states that Spaniels with yellow eyes tend to be stubborn unreliable

I do not agree with this and I don't think you can generalise. I believe that you are a behaviourist so you would naturally see the problem ones but I am sure you must see the same breed with dark eyes also having problems.

My original answer to the question at the start of this thread was:-
<<In a word, No! The breed standard calls for darker eyes and light eyes tend to make the dog look more manevolent but as to anything else, no, it's just like blue or green eyes in humans, just a colour.>>

Doglistener answered me with a long post which started:-
<<Unfortunately that is not the case>>

To say this then you must be agreeing with the part of the original question which posed the thought that:-
<<you can't trust a lab with yellow eyes>>

In order to make a sweeping statement like this then you must believe there is an inherited trait which is responsible for this. Otherwise it would just be a random problem and not connected to the eye colour. Which is exactly what I am saying.

If there is an inherited trait then the question is “Where did it come from and why”

If you read my fourth post on this thread, in which I brought up the case of Glaucoma in one breed and the link between eye problems and coat colour in another breed you will see how I was attempting to show that there is reasons for the problems in those breeds. People inadvertently bred from affected dogs BECAUSE of successes by those dogs IN THE SHOW RING. There is no reason in Labradors to breed for light eyes! It is an undesirable colour in a show dog and as far as pet or working dogs are concerned the effects would be very local therefore there is no reason why a trait such as this should ever have been fixed in Labradors.

I respect Jo Irving’s abilities in the training of dogs but submit that his views on this are just as subjective as anyone else’s! Any one who has seen hundreds of any breed is entitled to their opinion and if that runs contrary to someone else’s view who has also seen hundreds of that breed, then as the old saying goes, “You pays yer money and takes yer choice”

As to your question on my experience, I must admit, I was just a little annoyed! Then I got to thinking. Who really knows of my experience? Who really knows about any of us on here? A few people know me but as far as I can remember only about two person on here have seen any of my dogs working. I could say I have attended courses at Lemington and Huntercombe Manor and who could argue? It would be true as it happens but they were not courses on dogs, they were industrial management courses! Almost no one really knows any of us. We read the answers to the posts and we must decide for ourselves whether or not we believe that this answer or that is the way to go.

Regards, John

Hi John

It's a very valid point, I've not had the pleasure ;) of meeting any C.D members to date, when discussing subjects you can't see the facial expressions so it's all down to the written word; which as we've all seen can be the cause of many an argument!

By the way, is it true that you're a hunky blonde babe magnet???? ;)

liberty

You are almost right Liberty! old, grey and going bald fast four eyed old g*t! (But "The Flower" loves me)

Best wishes, John

You know what they say about bald men ;)
Lara x

liberty! i think iv learnt from reading other posts not to diss john- hes obviously an expert in dogs especially labradors so feel that hes right when he says eye colour does not effect behaviour.
liz
edited: not criticising leigh just making reference to her amusing question she asked john and then moving onto my opinion- sorry it wasn't clearer before :)

Lizzy

I'm not sure what post of mine you read to come to this assumption; I have never questioned Johns experience where Labs or dogs in general are concerned.
Perhaps you can enlighten me, as to what I've said to cause such a reaction?

liberty

Calm down ladies, no fightin over me!

You must be used to all those ladies fighting over you by now; or are you becoming shy??

liberty

LOL ;)

sorry liberty i think my post was confusing, when i wrote 'leigh!' i was just having a laugh at the question you asked john because i found it amusing then i moved onto a general opinion of mine ie that we shouldn't question john becasue he is the 'master'! hehe! wasn't actually directing any criticism at you soz if it sounded like it though i can see why now. hope iv cleared it up a bit.
Liz

No problem and no harm done :)

liberty

My dark eyed lab bitch mated to a dark eyed dog produced a couple of light eyed pups. One I have kept and she has a fantastic nature, excellent hip score and good conformation and clear eye test. Does anyone consider she should not be bred from because she has light eyes (not yellow but much lighter than her parents).
Ted

I think that's one for John......the babe magnet :)

liberty

What colour eyes have you two got just out of interest ?:) :D

Lucy

Duncan

Capitals on replies are perceived as shouting. And is generally construed as rude and ignorant

Your site is not just dedicated to rage syndrome it is dedicated to the love of Cockers and you are a breeder of the same, therefore are automatically going to question any aspect referring to Cockers not only that your conclusions are woefully out of date reporting facts in the 80s and 90s . However having said that I believe rage syndrome which is not just endemic to cockers but many other breeds as well ,is misdiagnosed and is much rarer than imagined

However if you want a comment of the cocker breeders. And you are well aware that recent studies have now shown that true Cocker rage not the perceived one by people who think that any show of aggression from a cocker is Rage is peculiar to the Male.

“Rage syndrome looks like an exaggerated form of status aggression,” “It’s triggered by the unexpected approach of people when the dog is in a half-asleep state. The dog snaps alert, growls and bites, even people it knows. Then it behaves as if it’s very sorry afterwards, as though it didn’t mean to do it.”

Research has shown that rage syndrome is only associated with certain colours of cocker spaniels: red-golden and black, so that there is probably a strong genetic basis.

“Because the [different coloured] lineages have been separated for a long time, champion dogs, which they were bred from, had this problem. Pure breeding inevitably increases genetic problems because it narrows the gene pool. Some almost have no genetic variation left, and then you can’t select out traits anymore.” So who is at fault? not the dogs!


I do not have that Axe to grind with any breed I am not breeder.

My God the sycophants come out on this one what is it? we love John week Can either John or someone else tell me how they come to these conclusions This it what I do full time I don’t play at it I study and study some more, I deal with dogs of all breeds day in and day out I love it is my hobby my passion my life.

Have the we love John brigade even bothered to read my postings or have you totally ignored the fact that I only stumbled on the problem of yellow eyes only because I kept records to try and disprove someone else’s statements to this effect has anyone else kept records of this situation?

Once again I note John has muddied the waters with a long posting which says nothing and suggests everything.

I have seen some of Johns previous postings he is obviously passionate,dedicated and knowleadgable unfortunately this does not give the right to make a statement of such absolute conviction that it brooks no argument especially as I perceive he has not studied the specific genetic characteristic and problem.

despite all the argument and hubris it makes for an interesting debate LOL

This was his answer to the original question

In a word, No! The breed standard calls for darker eyes and light eyes tend to make the dog look more manevolent but as to anything else, no, it's just like blue or green eyes in humans, just a colour.

Best wishes

Doglistener

In my opinion Duncan was using capitals to emphasise a point and not to shout and as such should not be construed as rude or ignorant.
When you say that
"I have seen some of Johns previous postings he is obviously passionate,dedicated and knowleadgable unfortunately this does not give the right to make a statement of such absolute conviction that it brooks no argument especially as I perceive he has not studied the specific genetic characteristic and problem."
This is a free country and as such we are allowed to say what we believe, and it is John's belief that the disposition of a dog is not based on a genetic factor related to the colour of their eyes. As this has not been scientifically proven then everyone is allowed to share their own thoughts on the subject. This is an open forum and as such many different replies are received, it is up to the individual to take on board the ones they feel are relevant to the situation and which may benefit them most.

I feel that you summed it up best when you said
"In the end John is right, put 10 trainers or behaviourists in a room and I doubt you would get a consensus and each one would have his own methods and study program." No one should critisise others suggestions just because it does not coincide with their own.

Until it has been scientifically proven that the colour of a dogs eye is related to their dispostion, the majority of people will not believe this to be true (as I myself do not).


ps, before you label everyone as being in the "I love John" brigade, people merely respect John for what he has brought to this board in terms of knowledge and help. I have never met John and do not know him personally but feel that he shares his knowledge freely and has a lot of experience and as such people respect what he has to say.

I do really wish people would read the whole thread. and not take comments out of context.

To come in after 37 postings and say things like
" This is a free country and as such we are allowed to say what we believe, and it is John's belief that the disposition of a dog is not based on a genetic factor related to the colour of their eyes. As this has not been scientifically proven then everyone is allowed to share their own thoughts on the subject. This is an open forum and as such many different replies are received, it is up to the individual to take on board the ones they feel are relevant to the situation and which may benefit them most.

When I had already said: "This is an open forum and everyone's views are of course welcome, however if you are to make a statement that is as pertinent and forceful as yours. Then you must be able to back it up with with either individual knowledge or hard facts. These should be based on your personal dealings with this type of dog, with this type of eye colour. As indeed I have tried to do"

John can claim my points are codswallop. but I cannot reply with the fact that I have actually spent years recording eye colour against behavioural traits.

That seems fair and democratic ....So we are reduced to I like John therefore your comments and points are wrong and should be ignored.

Your statement ." No one should critisise others suggestions just because it does not coincide with their own. only applies to me then does it?

You comment again "Until it has been scientifically proven that the colour of a dogs eye is related to their dispostion, the majority of people will not believe this to be true (as I myself do not)" only refers to my comments not to Johns who stated.

In a word, No! The breed standard calls for darker eyes and light eyes tend to make the dog look more manevolent but as to anything else, no, it's just like blue or green eyes in humans, just a colour. So thats OK then the oracle has spoken.

Pleeeeeeease

Regards

Doglistener

Hi Dog Listner

I have no axe to grind with you; however I've read many of Johns posts(never met him), but I've always found his information and advice straightforward and helpful.
Put me in the 'We love John week', if you like ,but your comment,
<<<once again I note John has muddied the waters with long postings, which says nothing and suggests everything>>>>
Seems somewhat unfair.

liberty

Temporary lock until thread can be branched