I'm sure that many of you will have read Robert Killicks article in Our Dogs this week - re: the Welsh Assembly giving farmer's grants to build kennels and runs to help them economically after Foot & Mouth - I'm also aware that there are a great many people on this board who feel very strongly about back yard breeding & puppy farms - I would ask you all this weekend to take perhaps 5 minutes out and send a strongly worded email to tim.cosgrove@wales.gsi.gov.uk and point out your views to him. Personally I do think this is a subject we can all agree on.

It will be interesting to see what Mr Blair has to say about this then, as it flies in the face of everything the government is about to implement with regard to breeding dogs in the UK!

When we lived in Pembrokeshire (Wales!) in the earlier agricultural depression, I suppose about 20 years ago, the bank managers were also promoting dog breeding as a way out of economic catastrophe. Nothing much changes, and I think this latest move is completely disgraceful.

I saw some awful conditions then, and expect the same thing will happen again.

Shall definitely e-mail the minister

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Me too. As Jo says the government were directly responsible for the first flush of puppy farming about 20/25 years ago, I think when they brought in the milk quota, dog breeding was suggested to farmers by them - farmers had more milk than they could use and were advised to diversify. Many went into ice cream/yohurt/cheese etc but so many started "breeding" in every rural area of the Uk but notably in Wales.
Perhaps those more in the know/with more clout than me, could get the Kennel Clubs official view on this?

Please take time out and E Mail as requested by Boosmum.

I see the results daily of the puppy farming in Wales and Ireland not only are the conditions normally horrific it is the fact that they generally sell on the pups on at 4/5 weeks to shops or individuals who then sell them on to the unsuspecting public. separating a pup at this crucial stage in the canine and neonatal cycle is nothing short of criminal and i find the dogs grow up with behavioural problems that are very difficult to cure.

I have reproduced an article I wrote on the critical stages of a puppies psychological growth you may find it of some interest.

0 to 7 Weeks
Neonatal, Transition, Awareness, and Canine Socialisation. Puppy is with mother and littermates. During this period, puppy learns about social interaction, play, and inhibiting aggression from mother and littermates. Puppies must stay with their mother and littermates during this critical period. Puppies learn the most important lesson in their lives--they learn to accept discipline.

7 to 14 Weeks
Human Socialisation Period. The puppy now has the brain waves of an adult dog, but his attention span is short. This period is when the most rapid learning occurs. Learning at this age is permanent so this is a perfect time to start training. Also, this is the ideal time to introduce the puppy to things that will play an important part in his life. Introduce the puppy to different people, places, animals, and sounds in a positive, non-threatening way.

8 to 10 / 11 Weeks
Fear Imprint Period. Avoid frightening the puppy during this period. Any traumatic, frightening or painful experience will have a more lasting effect on the puppy than if it occurred at any other time in its life.

13 to 16 Weeks
Seniority Classification Period or The Age of Cutting. Puppy cuts teeth and apron strings! Puppy begins testing who is going to be pack leader. You must discourage any and all biting because such biting is a sign of dominance! It is important that you are a strong and consistent leader. Formal training must begin. Such training will help you establish your leadership.

4 to 8 Months
Play Instinct Period. Flight Instinct Period. Puppy may wander and ignore you. It is very important that you keep the puppy on a leash at this time! The way that you handle the puppy at this time determines if the puppy will come to you when called. At about 4-1/2 months, the puppy loses his milk teeth and gets his adult teeth. That's when puppy begins serious chewing! A dog's teeth don't set in his jaw until between 6 and 10 months. During this time, the puppy has a physical need to exercise his mouth by chewing.

6 to 14 Months
Second Fear Imprint Period or Fear of New Situations Period. Dog again shows fear of new situations and even familiar situations. Dog may be reluctant to approach someone or something new. It is important that you are patient and act very matter of fact in these situations. Never force the dog to face the situation. DO NOT pet the frightened puppy or talk in soothing tones. The puppy will interpret such responses as praise for being frightened. Training will help improve the dog's confidence.

1 to 4 Years
Maturity Period. You may encounter increased aggression and renewed testing for dominance, but because you have spent a lot of time with your dog, this will not present a problem at all - in fact you will probably hardly notice this, it is just something to keep in mind. Continue to train your dog during this period. Your dog may have another fear period between 12 - 16 months of age.

Regardless of your reason for acquiring a puppy, you'll have to win it over. You, not your dog, will have to be the leader of the pack if your pup is to develop into a well-mannered family member instead of a burden. Dominance and alpha behaviour are important concepts that every dog owner should comprehend.

Dogs are animals, not human beings in furry coats. They are pack animals by nature. Every pack has a leader, known as the alpha animal, which dominates and leads the other members of the pack. The alpha is the boss who makes decisions for the entire pack. Usually the pack will have an alpha male and an alpha female. All the other members of the pack form a hierarchy of dominance and submission where everyone has a place.

In your home, you and your family become your dog's pack, as do any other dogs you may have. It is your responsibility to establish yourself in the alpha position. If you fail to do this, your dog will do it as a natural behaviour. Many people assume that they are automatically in charge just because humans are superior to animals. But are you really the pack leader? Does your dog know it?

Being the pack leader does not mean you have to be big and aggressive. Nor does it mean that there has to be a battle of wills after which you are the victor. Anyone can be the pack leader. It is an attitude an air of authority. It is the basis for mutual respect, and provides the building blocks of communication between the two of you.

Doglistener

This is sad

A so important issue is not getting the hits and comments it needs may I suggest you also suggest this on some of the other forums.

I have already e mailed my comments have you? If you want some indication or help please indicate on this forum and I will copy my letter that has already been sent

Doglistener

Hi Doglistener I have mailed you:)

Hi Stan, hope u don't mind but it would be great if you could post some ideas for an email, i'd love to write but not too sure what to say...thanks and how awful, how can people in government actually put forward such ridiculous proposals? it's pretty scary really.

Hi Luandarchie.

Certainly all I have done is coddle together some of the comments from the other forum posters and a bit from my own posting but if it helps here goes.

Obviously you will have to change a couple of words such as I have reproduced part of an article I wrote re this crucial time, change this to I have reproduced part of an article I have read recently etc

E Mail I sent

Re: the Welsh Assembly giving farmer's grants to build kennels and runs to help them economically after Foot & Mouth

The Government were directly responsible for the first flush of puppy farming about 20/25 years ago. When they brought in the milk quota Dog breeding was suggested to farmers as they had more milk than they could use and were therefore advised to diversify.

Many went into ice cream/yoghurt/cheese etc but so many others started " Puppy Breeding" in every rural area of the UK but notably in Wales. Now it appears we are exacerbating the situation by offering grants to farmers to carry on this vile trade.

I see the results daily of the puppy farming in Wales and Ireland. Not only are the conditions horrific but the mental scarring to the pups is terrible.

These operations generally sell on the pups at 4/5 weeks to shops or individuals who then sell them on to the unsuspecting public. Separating a pup at this crucial stage in the Canine and Neonatal cycle is nothing short of criminal and I find the dogs then grow up with serious behavioural problems that are extremely difficult to cure.

These Pups are nearly always full of worms, fleas,and lice and have serious vitamin deficiancies. coupled with stomach and bowel infections they are in a pitiful state. And you want to promote this?

I have reproduced part of an article I wrote re this crucial time in a Puppies psychological growth please consider the affects of these puppy farm operations before the government and the Welsh assembly rubber stamps them. Especially as it flies in the face of everything the Government is about to implement with regard to breeding dogs in the UK!

0 to 7 Weeks
Neonatal, Transition, Awareness, and Canine Socialisation. Puppy is with mother and littermates. During this period, puppy learns about social interaction, play, and inhibiting aggression from mother and littermates. Puppies must stay with their mother and littermates during this critical period. Puppies learn the most important lesson in their lives--they learn to accept discipline.

Kind regards

Then you address etc hope it can be of some help I have e mailed over over 4000 of my clients and contacts and i an discussions with the countryside alliance for which I do a lot of voluntary work.

Can I ask some of the forum could do the same thing.

Regards

doglistener

I have never seen the need for the Welsh Assembly and this latest stupidity just reinforces my view.
Wales has always had a bad reputation as regards puppy farming so the Assembly is just adding fuel to the fire. This also has a knock-on effect for genuine prospective puppy owners - in the past I have been regarded warily by breeders when I've told them I lived in Wales.

Living in Wales itself was a tremendous handicap if I wanted to breed a litter. You automatically are viewed with suspicion, and to be honest, quite rightly so!!! I would myself be very dubious of any puppies coming from Wales; even more so now if this subsidy goes ahead.

It's such a pity , for there are some excellent bone-fide dogs/breeders out there, but all tarred with the same brush.

I have been taken in by the owner of one pup I homed in Wales some time back, luckily with a breeding endorsement which the KC are upholding, as the original owner hadn't transferred to their own name. Now the bitch has been passed to their mother, who I think is trying to start puppy farming. I do wish I could get the bitch back - I know she can't KC register the pups, but doesn't stop her doing this Dog Lovers Reg. nonsense. It's breaking my heart.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Is there nothing that can been done to stop the Dog lovers Reg lot ? I have been e-mailing them about issues to see what they say and it is very non commital about that they have any reponsibilities as it is the reponsibilty of the breeder to give bonefidy information ! Surely if they could be stopped then it would help as well ? Trading standards or something could help? Clutching at straws?

Lucy

I am about to email in protest at the possible resurgence of puppy farming due to the Welsh Assembly iniative. However like some others who have responded I would like to emphasise that not everyone in Wales is a 'puppy farmer' I live in North Wales (Actually Llanfairpwlgwyn gyll...on Anglesey, and know of one locally and try to warn people off.Rspca don't want to know.

I live and farm in North Wales and recieve all the literature from the Welsh Office Agri Dept but have heard nothing about this scheme, is it true?.

I am very aware that not every one in Wales is a Puppy Farmer.

Some of the best breeders come from Wales.

Unfortunately this does detract from the fact that there are horrific "Breeder Factories" in Wales and of course Ireland and many parts of England.......... However it is in Wales at present that the Welsh Assembly is trying to promote this vile and insidious trade.

I am trying to resurect this thread as only fourteen hits is lamentable.

Come on make your voice known......................

regards

Doglistener

Wholeheartedly agree that this is an awful idea by the WA. Before I send off my strongly worded email and forward an email suggesting the same to my dog loving friends who don't frequent this board, can I check who this Tim Cosgrove chap is? Is he the person proposing this or an administrator? My quick web search suggests on his email address he only deals with Isle of Anglesey, Ceredigion, Conwy, Denbighshire, Gwynedd European funding issues.

I didn't see the original article but my experience in central government recently is that you need to get to the decision makers and not the administrators. Perhaps there are WA members or a minister we should email instead? Or our own MPs if we live in England as they should pass it on. Unfortunately I'm not in Wales so am not sure who the best person might be.

Might also be worth pointing out that intensive puppy farming does not appear to sit well with the WA's principles of sustainable development or the latest ideas on corporate social responsibiity, nevermind the damage to Wales' reputation.

Apologies if TC is actually a WA minister and just didn't pop up on my search!

Jude

I have just e-mailed the Welsh Assembly asking for confirmation of this disgraceful initiative and asking for further information. I will post details of reply received (if I get one !)

Joyce

I haven't received a reply yet.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I thought i had posted on here, but it must have been on one of the other sites. I am fairly certain that in Maggie Thatcher's time, farmers were subsidised for basically setting up puppy farms, so it has been going on a long time. I will mail anyway with my protest, as it is disturbing that more incentives are being offered.

Lindsay

I have just received the main contact address details for this:

I am assured this is the person that we need to bombard - please feel free to cross post

Carwyn Howell Jones Esq AM
Member for Bridgend

Email: Carwyn.Jones@wales.gov.uk

National Assembly for Wales
Cardiff Bay
CARDIFF
CF99 1NA
Tel: (029) 2089 8301 Fax: (029) 2089 8302

47 Nolton Street
BRIDGEND
CF31 3AA

Tel: (01656) 664320 Fax: (01656) 669349

Have just looked up on wales.gov.uk and he is the Minister for Environment, Planning and Countryside. Agreed he is probably the key chap. Consider it done!

Jude

I have just recieved a long reply from Tim Cosgrove's office. I would post it except I don't know how to forward it to Champdogs. Can anybody help

Copy and paste it into a "reply box"?

I've just got one as well, and I could have cried. :-( :-( :-(

Yes they are giving grants for this.

I have asked for pemission to cross-post his reply, as I thought I better had, but am inclined to just copy it anyhow.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Jo, you can post it in full if you wish

OK here it is:

Dear Ms Hewison,
Thank you for your email to Tim Cosgrove concerning Welsh Assembly Support for dog breeding Activities in Wales through Farming Connect

The Farming Connect service was launched in September 2001 to provide a
complete package of assistance to help family farms in Wales. The service
includes a free business planning service that is designed to identify the
best possible way to take the family farm business forward and remain
viable. The service includes a range of grants to help farmers invest in
their future and includes the Farm Enterprise grant, which is aimed at
helping farmers diversify their businesses away from mainstream agriculture,
and the Farm Improvement grant that provides assistance to on farm
agricultural activities. Since the launch of the scheme there have been over 5,000 enquiries for the planning service and over 500 applications for grant approved.

The breeding of dogs is eligible under the scheme for capital works such as
kennelling and exercise yards. Support is not available for the purchase of
animals. To date two farmers have received grant towards dog breeding
enterprises. To qualify for grant under the scheme all buildings must comply
with British Standard 5502 and are eligible for inspection under Farming
Connect for a period of 5 years after completion. It is expected that a
Farming Connect Consultant would not recommend that a farmer undertook a dog breeding enterprise unless they were trained to do so and were experienced in animal welfare and hygiene. Training in both these areas are provided through the training elements of Farming Connect and through a series of Development Centres and Demonstration Farms which highlight good practice in animal welfare and hygiene. The checks carried out, which may include on-site visits, are over and above those that a local authority would undertake in this area.

Of the farmers that have requested support for dog breeding facilities the
first business has received the necessary planning permission and a local
authority dog warden has approved the plans, advice has also been sought
from specialist dog kennel constructors. We have been assured that the plans conform fully with current health, environment and animal welfare
regulations. The members of the business have researched the market and have over 12 years experience breeding dogs.

The second enterprise is to provide further support to an established dog
breeder to convert calf stables into kennels and provision of steam cleaning
equipment for effective hygiene management, again all building works are to British Standard 5502 and subject to possible inspection. This enterprise is to provide high quality puppies in a welfare friendly manner for family
pets. The farmer has tested the market and established that there is a
demand for the enterprise.

We recognise the importance that needs to be given to the highest forms of animal welfare and hygiene and both capital grants under the scheme are expected to provide high standards and benefits for the animals whether they are agricultural livestock or for the domestic market. We will undertake to ensure that future applications of this kind are looked at in detail to ensure that the highest possible standards are maintained.

Regards

Darren

Darren Brook

Food and Farming Development Division 3

Agriculture and Rural Affairs Department

Tel 029 20801363

Email darren.brook@wales.gsi.gov.uk

Hi Jo

I've just read this thread on Puppy Farming in Wales, and the reply from Tim Cosgrove :(

If enough people showed their disgust at this, could it be stopped? Are the Press interested? Anyone know any 'doggy journalists' to take up the case?

liberty

Robert Killick in Killick's Column - Our Dogs 6.6.03 article entitled "I'm left wondering if sense will prevail" was where I read about this first. He asked for people to bombard the assembly with emails - I originally posted this in the breeding forum (6.6.03) and was disappointed the next day when I found it had been removed - only to discover today that it had been moved to General.

That makes me sooooo bl**dy ANGRY

Years and years and years of campaigning and warning Joe Public about the horrors of puppy farms, and for what? All down the drain.

Here we go again.

I agree. Its disgusting. I've emailed them too this morning.

I fired off an email along the lines of "this will only lower the reputation of the people of Wales still further" - hopefully that will rile them as much as it's done me.

Edit: I hasten to add I have nothing against Welsh people or Wales, so don't bite me! I said it to try to put across the feelings of horror I have at this whole idea.

I am going to fax Dr Vernon Coleman, he is a high profile psychiatrist and animal activist and a friend of mine, he will probably help ;)

This was the e-mail I sent to him in reply. I didn't make it too long, or he wouldn't read it (will he anyhow?)

I have the greatest sympathy with family farms in Wales; I know only too
well at first hand what it is like to be farming there - we did so ourselves
for very many years through the worst of the depression.

Unfortunately your reply does nothing to allay the fears of very many that
sub-standard puppies will be produced inasmuch as they will be bred with
profit in mind.

This will inevitably mean that corners will be cut with the necessary
checks for hereditary conditions such as hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, eye
and heart conditions to name a few.. Also, there is no way of monitoring
the character of the dogs if they are in a farmed situation. The fact that
the dogs may be kept in hygienic conditions, although obviously essential,
is not the point.

This will lead to increased vets bills and behaviourists bills for the new
owners who are more responsible, or alternatively, and more likely,
increased pressure on already over-stretched rescue organisations.

You do not normally cull excess dogs in the same way that you might cull
over-stocking of large animals, although I know from experience that this
has happened in puppy farming enterprises in the past.

Wales already has a terrible name for puppy farming -please don't make it
even worse! This is not guardianship of the countryside in any guise.

Yours truly

Jo, I took the liberty of forwarding your email to a friend at the Kennel Club. She in turn forwarded it to the press office. Maybe we will get an official statement on their views on the matter at some point.

Hi all,

I've e.mailed too....I'm absolutely DISGUSTED by this.

I hope we can get something done. Hubby and I live in Wales, and honestly just can't believe what we're reading and hearing.

Let's keep hassling them!

Take care

Lisa

Hi everyone,
I too, am disgusted at this whole issue and have written to the people in question expressing my views. I really don't think they care enough to stop and think about their actions. It doesn't matter how much money they put into ensuring the places are clean etc. cleanliness doesn't prevent hip dyspasia, or deafness, or OCD, epilepsy, eye problems etc etc.
I have therefore contacted the tabloids directly. My views alone may not make an impact, but if everyone can express their view too, then they may just stop and listen and blow the whole thing right open to the public.
If you go to this site www.thesun.co.uk and follow the links, you can email the journalists directly and express your views. Hopefully if enough of us do so they may agree that there is a cause for concern - so to speak. Just a shot, but could be worthwhile. ( you do have to 'register' on this site, but it is worth a few moments of our time, to help prevent this whole thing being so easy for the people concerned).
Lou xx

I to recieved the same reply to my e-mail, it must be just a standard blurb that they are sending to all. They cannot be bothered it seems to answer individual points.

Please don' be disheartened by the standard reply - I think they have been inundated with emails. Sorry to put this information on so late in the day but this will be discussed on Radio Wales between 7.30 - 8.30 tomorrow morning and on tomorrows Welsh Evening News. Please continue to contact everyone you can think of - this might work.

Hi again,
re - my previous post on this subject. If anyone does want to write to the tabloids about these aweful proposals the email address is ;
talkback@the-sun.co.uk

I'm just about to e-mail the tabloids. What about a programme like Richard and Judy as well - anyone know their e-mail address?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

This Morning might be interested... I've got a contact there, I'll give them a go.

What are the RSPCA doing about this, anyone know?

Don't know, but I can guess!!!

Jo

Sweet F.A. as usual, I expect. :rolleyes:

The Richard and Judy show can be contacted here;
http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/R/richardandjudy/contactus/contact_us.html its a bit long so best to copy and paste.

This reply is exactly word for word the same as I recieved.Whats the next step?

How about contacting Countryfile ? This is just up their street ?

[email]countryfile@bbc.co.uk[/email]

Just a thought ?

Lucy

I'm trying tot hink of a current affairs program - something like Tonight with Trevor McDonald, or even Panorama would be good. After all, dogs are (i think) the Number 1 pet in the country, and millions of £ are spent on them every year, so it would be "in the public's interest"...

The problem is that a high profile organisation needs to take this issue up and lead form the front, and get a website and petition going...

Chloe - What about WAG, they have recently stopped a major puppy farm in Scotland and are also campaigning to stop similar activities all over GB

Hi - who are WAG? Sorry, I might be being thick!

http://www.mediacave.co.uk/wag/about_us.htm

WAG are Waterside Action Group, first formed to stop a man in Scotand from actively puppy farming and keeping the dogs in awefull conditions, many puppies were dying. They will be able to help, and feel very strongly about puppy farming anywhere, not just local to them.