I don't know whether I am alone in what I am thinking and I certainly am not posting this to upset anyone. I know we all have to start somewhere: BUT!!!!!

I am very distressed by the number of people posting on here about problems breeding their first litters ( before anyone shoots me down I think they should post on here in the absence of anywhere else to get advice). It is a very difficult medium to describe exactly what is going on.

When I started breeding I went into it with a lot of research, asked for help from people more experienced than myself and had someone experienced holding my hand all the way through the first couple of whelpings. I was lucky as I had a background of breeding cattle, sheep and horses.

Can I recommend that anyone about to embark on their first litter a) asks the advice of the breeder of their bitch b) find a stud dog owner who is prepared to help them with advice (not just take their money and wave goodbye) and c) find someone who will be their mentor during the pregnancy and whelping.

Pregnant women get all this sort of advice from their pre-natal classes and I think that novice breeders need the same sort of advice.

Sorry for the ramble, but I feel quite upset about it.

Ah but pregnant women only get the advice AFTER they are pregnant ;)

Melody

I have had four kids and each kid was diffrent and I also always looked for more and more books to read to keep my self up on things. Alot of doctors think woman always panick. After so many years they forget to have a bedside manor. So you go and look for advise from others. Vets can also be that way. My first experience with my first little was through a c-section. I've always just help deliver pups I never lived with them at home before the whelped. Now that I am having another litter, I'm just would like her to try go natural.

If I bother you so much, I can go some where else and get assistance. I think at one point you may have been inexperienced and if you are one of those perfect people than i'm very proud of you.

You know, I went reading back on alot of these topics and apparently this is not the first time people like to affend others. All there asking for is help! If you don't want to help don't respond to any of the questions.

Please read my post again I have no intention of trying to upset anyone, and as I said in there in absence of anywhere else to go this is a good board for advice.

Please don't feel that you cannot post.

All I am doing is expressing my opinion.

It was just a few words of advice or people thinking about embarking on breeding their bitch.

Ignorance is bliss as they say Mel :-D :-D

Darn ..it ..is that how come I ended up with 5 kids???

:D :D

I realised what was doing it after the third Mel, so how come it took you 5 times. :-D :-D :-D

I reckon I figured it would all cease when I met and married Stephen you see ? That was after the first 3 ....took me another 2 to wake up to the fact that it was NO DIFFERENT!!

:D :D

LOL

;-)

Hi Lady Dazzle, this can of worms has been open before. You might like to check down the list of posts on this board and read, New Breeders, by Taffyparker.
Dawn R.

Hi Dawn

My posting was in a very different vein to that of taffyparkers, what I am trying to do is to give the advice that research and finding someone experienced to help them is the way to go.

I am not saying that people shouldn't breed from their bitches. But that they should go into it with their eyes open.

Jayne

You know now that this has come up. I've done all the reading I can and when things start going, you sometimes forget. Also when I went talking to my Dr. About things that I had read. He told me to stop reading or I was going to go crazy. I also had another Dr. I use to work for tell me the same things.

People read so much and then think the know it all. That they wind up doing more harm then good. It's good to talk to other people who have gone through the same as you.

It's like going to Lamaz we learn how to breathe and then when it's time we forget.

hello i can only speak for myself and not others but my reason for posting on this subject being a first time breeder is the fact that each and every whelp is different and you can read as many books as you like and you still wont be prepared as you could also watch quite a few whelps taking place and you still wont be prepared for each and every eventuality that could take place. i am fortunate to not be a total novice as i have worked with dogs and owned dogs for some time now however i am not of the oppinion that anyone is so perfected on this subject that they should stop asking questions. these sites help responsible people hopefully make informed decisions by having the knowledge of other peoples experiences on perhaps a subject that your home network of people may not have had the experience of thus the need for advice. i would like to think that if i am actually asking questions then i am being responsible and preparing myself for such an event ect.
like i said i can only give my reason for doing so and i am sure that there are people who are irresponsible in their approach to breeding but i do hope that we are not all tarred with the same brush because of it.
LD1

i suppose a lot depends on the type of question being asked-non of us knowit all-were all still learning-----but!!!! in my opinion some folk just shouldnt be breeding, some of the questions asked prove how clueless some really are-and the poor bitch and its pups are dependant, not only at birth, but for the rest of there life-how can a person help or advise new puppy owners, if they know so very little about the breed/breeding themselves,
i waited a very long time before having my first litter, i did most of my homework via other sucessful breeders, who if they see your breeding with the breed at heart are nearly all willing to help as best they can---i went and helped out at friends whelpings etc and got some hands on !!!!
non of us are experts, we all start as novices, but it depends how much groundwork your willing to put in first--------it has to make a difference

i am with you on this lady dazzle, it saddens me that people are so quick to breed and mostly from inferiour stock,every time i go to pets at home there must be half a dozen adds mostly german shepherds, not k.c reg about £200 no hip scores no heomo tests, i went to microchip a chaps dogs that had just had a litter of g.s.d both on welfare the house was filthy the puppies were filthy very underweight and general poor condition the bitch was only just eighteen months old, they don't care because they know some mug will buy them, they think they are getting a good deal, what fools, i can't reapeat on here the dressing down i gave them and said if i see them advertise a litter again as he assured me it was a accident,yeah right i was not born yesterday, i would report them to to the social security for not declaring the money they made on those poor puppies. how many of you new breeders show your dogs to get a opinion of your dog as to the breed standard, how many of you would go to the other end of the country for the best stud dog, how many of you know about line breeding, outcrossing, inbreeding, have a experienced person to help and guide you, will you take back any dogs that you have bred for what ever reasons and at any time during there life, i am haveing my first litter very shortly and am beside myself with worry and fear that any thing could go wrong and that i could loose my presious girl, i can say yes to all those questions can you new breeders do the same, it may be not what you want to here, all my puppies will have endorsemants on them and a puppie sales contract i will only consider lifting the endorsements if they can answer my questions on why they wish to breed, if they don't like what they read they can go else were, i do not have to sell anything i breed i can keep them all, regards tina

as a first time breeder iv read all the books i can, checked with my vet- did all relevant tests etc, made sure i have at least some suitable people who would be interested in buying a pup and just overall made sure i was doing the right thing. i'm very lucky because the stud dog owner has offered her services for the big day and has helped me in any way she can, she even looked after molly when i had to go a way for the night. even though im in a pretty good situation with regards to help and info i still find it reassuring to gain extra advice from these boards as im trying my best to make sure im prepared for anything. even though im a newie on this board i sometimes find that new breeders aren't given a chance, im not trying to get at anyone but there's only so much you can say in a post and people who ask for advice sometimes get more then they bargained for! i know there are plenty of people who will breed without hesitation but i think sometimes we should try and find out more information before people jump to conclusions. soz for going on- again! :) Liz

But Lizzy thats what I mean you have done it the right way with loads of experienced help there if and when you need it.

yeah i suppose so- point taken! :) :)

I think one reason why someone with a genuine query will sometimes get 'jumped on' is that, by chance, they happen to be the fourth person asking exactly the same question in as many days! Not their fault, they may not know how to do a "search" to see if their question has been asked before, but it does sometimes seem as if all the advice given previously has been thrown to the four winds and wasted!
Just a thought.
:)

I asked a few questions on this board I also asked from my breeder and to other friends who i know have breed for many years, also read alot, But yes it can be all new to me but i have had 3 daugthers and lost 3 but i still worry when i am pregnant and a lot has changed from having my eldest 13 years ago and having my baby who is now 16 months, In all the years my mum had breed dogs she had never came across a 2 of the problems that my bitch had, Alot of what i asked was i wanted to know about other people experience, and if any one had had a simular problem that would help me to help my pups and there mum for a better life and i believe that was to be the most important thing, and like they say you learn something new every day.

I dont breed and never shall but I do read the threads on breeding and I am amazed at some of the things I read. I have read the Book of the Bitch twice because it has so much info on everything and have been in the company of some of the breeders on CD who care so much about their dogs and the worries they have about their dogs/pups. I can say though that IMOH if people used a bit of commonsense they wouldnt sound quite so useless and may get a lot more help if they were seen to be using a bit of knowledge. I often wonder if the posts are deliberate wind ups or people who just dont really bother to think things through properly before they embark on something that should be so important to them. Someone said recently that their bitch had had their pups and they were so glad as they were tired and were going to bed - that says it all!

Gina

At least the first timers are asking questions, thereby getting advice. Showing that a least they care (not all maybe but most). You cannot always get your advice from books, and sometimes its not possible to ask a vet or exp breeder.
It's the people who breed their pets, without getting advice that worry me more. Who just let their poor bitch get on with it by herself. People like the man that dumped his pregnant bulldog on that kind women (manny I think, who has now stopped coming on the board because of comments) because he 'couldn't be bothered' with her anymore!

everybody has there own thoughts on right and wrong breeding but if you dont like a genuine first time breeder asking for a little advice then dont reply.

I think the point is that some of the questions are so basic that the answers should already be known, far, far prior to the mating taking place.

Would you buy a dog without looking into the breed? No? then why breed one without looking into breeding. People owe it to their dogs to take more responsibility for their actions.

If someone has stupidly or not, right or wrongly, decided to breed from their bitch without a thought to their inexperience, pedigree or the 1000 other things they should have, then thank goodness that they start to look for some good, sound, solid advice. I've been thinking about this off and on since the weekend when for the first time I felt the need to post to this board, I was imagining myself in their situation. If however I started to read some of these threads and seen the reactions from the respected "board elders" I don't think I'd have the courage to ask for advise. It completely saddens me, if this board is to be truely utilized then surely it's best done in a non judgemental fashion. I understand and support your desires and goals for your breeds but this is a public forum not an elitist one .... I know you want people to give more thought before they breed, I just wish some of you would give more thought before you jump in there criticising .... I realise it's not your aim but the lady last week with the Bull Dog felt she was hounded off the board, how many others who need help lose confidence before they even ask for advice ....

i quite agree with you.

hi
i dont think manny/helen felt as if she was hounded off the board, i think that she was just so surprised at some of the comments that were put forward when she asked for help.
i have since found out why the original owner of the dog placed her with helen,and it still dont justify why he bred from her or handed her over to helen,but in my eyes thank goodness he did!
i read some of the questions that are put forward to the board,and at times i feel i may beable to help,i choose not to comment as this is sometimes the best and least troublesome approach and saves an awful lot of upset when people dont like to read what other peoples opinions are,and opinions are something that we all have even though at times we dont like to hear them:(
but when genuine "first time breeders" put questions to the board isnt it this boards job to try and help?
i know at times "some" breeders are mindless,my youngest male bulldog CANNOT be bred from or SHOWN as he has a blue eye (his eyes have been tested) .i would be a liar if i said i had not thought about breeding my dogs as i have, they come from good lines even the one with the blue eye does (but i know he could never be bred from,as even though there is nothing wrong with him he would not be desirable enough for people to want to use him),but that would not have stopped someone else possibly trying to use him because of the money involved in the breed.
anyway i decided AGAINST breeding as i felt it would be unfair on my girls as i dont have the experience (and they are not for the novice breeder anyway) i feel i am intelligent enough to work that out.
but when "first time breeders" post questions to the board i think instead of people trying to attack them for doing it,more help,advice and information should be given to them i feel that negative comments are only going to make them more determined to breed which could lead to a disaster:( for some poor dog.
even the most experienced of breeders dont get it right (as in my blue eyed boys case) but it dont stop him being less of a dog or a much loved family pet which is what he was intended for anyway.
i am sure "first time breeders" can get i right if the help and support is out there for them, i agree though there intentions for breeding their dogs must me right:).
jane

When you have been on the Forum for as long as some of the folks here (and some of them were on a previous Forum too) and you read for the umpteenth time *How do I find a stud dog for my *** , she is a pretty bitch* ...then you *may* just begin to get a more jaundiced view :)

Yes , everyone should be treated with respect , yes everyone should be given advice ....the thing is , sometimes , that advice is going to be ' In our collective experience , you shouldn't be breeding' .

Advice is great ..as long as you have asked for it and as long as you agree with it ;) Things kick off when people receive advice they disagree with more often than not.

Melody :)

Not forgetting the Troll and wind up merchants who even when banned, re-register using a different username and start the wind up process all over again. Very tedious and boring but sadly, jeopardise the people who really do need help and advice.

I take it, this is hard to stop or block when people rejoin under different usernames.

I have noticed some of the threads that do go drastically a stray when you check the amount of posts by some people they do tend to be very low and wondered why a new person would want to come on and start trouble. I would have though most genuine people wanting to take part and participate regularly to the board would at least get their coats and shoes off first.
I think I lurked for a long time with the odd Hi.. :-)

Pam

Melody..

Said perfectly.

I think 99% of the time the thread goes wrong when posters post comments and think people are going to agree with their comments but a lot of the time they don't.

The original poster or someone sharing the same view then don't like it. That is life.

I find the ones who post and as good as say " and if you don't agree with me don't reply" are incredible. People have to learn to take the advice that suits them and if they don't like some of the other advice ignore it.

I am new to breeding but owned dogs all my life. I have always had a very strong opinion on breeding hence the reason everydog I have owned has been bought from another breeder. You don't have to be an expereinced breeder to have morals or common sense.

Just my thoughts Pam :-)

Exactly :)

i totally agree with the fact that there are thousand of questions that have been repeated before by the novice breeder as also has this strain from the people that post there thoughts on it dont you think.
and i dont have a problem with anyone replying to my posts because i am there trying to make an informed decision on something so there shouldnt be any need for us not to agree with the advice as long as it is of coarse advice and not just your own oppinions.

I like advice (and I have had a lot from CD memebrs) as I am a relatively new dog owner BUT I also want and welcome people's opinions - sometimes the two come together and both are necessary. It wouldnt be a discussion board without opinions to discuss between ourselves would it? :) It seems an odd thing for you to say - let me have your advice but keep your opinions to yourself! But perhaps I am reading your post wrong - I do that sometimes :D

Gina :p

if you are replying to me then yes you are taking my post in the wrong context. as i have already stated i take each and everybodys post replys into account what i mean in saying own oppinions is people that jump to the wrong conclusions about me before they know or ask the facts or start telling me that i should not breed because i do not show ect ect... this to me is a personal oppinion that someone is entitled to but again that would be there view and not mine ect i hope i have made my statment a little clearer as perhaps i didnt make it very easy to understand earlier.
oh i forgot to say unless they have asked for oppinions on such subjects that goes without saying of coarse.

Hi all

I have two dogs but I have chosen not to breed from them. I know that sometimes it must get a little tedious for all you experienced breeders when the same old questions keep popping up, but as has been said you don-t have to reply, someone else could. I feel that we should all try to help one another a little more and we can refer them to a previous thread etc. No matter what we say these people are going to go out and breed their dogs so surely it would be wise to give them good advice, even if it is the most simplest obvious thing.

As another poster said the other day there seems to be so much aggression on the board at the moment and I feel that we should all pull together and help these people out once they come on the board, even if the advice has been given time and time again, at least you could be preventing something going disastrously wrong.

Surely it is better to keep these first time breeders on the board and give them advice throughout the pregnancy, rather than for them to breed, because they will do it anyway no matter what any of us say, and make some awful mistakes.

Jolene

Hi Jolene,

I think most genuine inteligent people here agree with you and don't mind helping. How I know this for a fact is 2 people in particular from this board who I have never met have been wonderful to me giving me a lot of support and always at the very least giving me reassurance on and off the board. They hopefully knew I had done as much homework as possible and I was hopefully asking reassuring questions and not ones I should probably have already established.

Posters must take advice ( advice includes opinions ) and morally ,experienced people on this board cannot sit back and condone breeding that is not done properly, if they did this would not be champdogs it would be a free for all , we would get more that the odd one or 2 people who have not done enough homework. This boards in generally I believe helps and supports new genuine dog people but their is a balance. If ever week experienced breeders took someone by the hand through the whole thing this is all we would see. People would say, " Hey I will just go to champdogs someone will help me there" boards like these are not there to replace homework before breeding I am afraid.

Whilst some post are genuine and people have replied and supported but others have not been so sensible and people I guess can only sit on ther hands for so long. I put my opinions on one thread a couple of days ago as I thought for a poster to ask for advice them insult the people who are giving it is totally wrong.

The majority here are genuine ethical breeders so comments and replies will be passionate I think some people are misinterpretating this with aggressiveness and nastiness when I think it is not.

Just my thoughts Pam :-)

(Who is a novice also)

Just a second - no-one criticised Manny/Helen at all. There we NO comments aimed at Manny/Helen. The points that were made we directed at the way in which the thread was going (turning into a rehoming thread) - and many of us gave Manny/Helen sound advice at the beginning.

That thread was blown completely out of proportion. I admire what Manny/Helen has done, some of us do very similar things with rescue too you know!

Yes, its a public forum, so therefore when people ask for advice and the thread is then publically responded to, people cannot go off at the deep end because they might not like what they are hearing! If a poster gets a hard time, it might just make others realise what they are about to do before they do it. And, if you have read the boards for a while, you would realise that those posters who get a hard time and respond well and agree to undertake the advice offered to them, usually go on to become regular members themselves and earn respect!

iam quite surprised by your last comment earn respect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whats your point?

there isnt a point to it other than to say that i know veterinary surgeons that have been going for many years that i dont respect as well as many breeders to. and its not always us that needs to earn respect or does things wrong that is all.
can i just point out i did not come on this site to start cause any arguments and i greatly appreciate each and everybody that has replyed to all my post i also take account of what each and every individual is saying to me as a first time breeder myself and hope that i do not offend anyone wiyh my posts i also think that the replys you all have given have put my mind to rest in certain areas that i was a little miffed by no matter how many times i had read about them in a book and feel that because of all the replys on this board i am better equiped to make sound informed decisions/judgements about certain things in my bitches whelp which is what i hope everyone will agree is a good outcome to these breeding posts.

what chloe is getting at is that if i give you an examle, there was a poster back last year who had australian cattle dogs asked the question i want to mate my bitch to my dog etc, this lady took a good deal of want for a better word battering on the boards, you may consider that to be aggressive, we would call it passionate, but she hung in there did not take offence to what was being posted and saw the light shall we say, most people had respect for this lady as she wanted to learn and hear the advice and help that was given and went about things in the right way, regards tina

I agree with you entirely, Chloe :)
The people who get me mad are those who buy a GSD (for the sake of argument) and want her to have puppies, and know so little about the breed that they are supposed to like so much and be so interested in, and they have never heard about hip-scoring! Or they say "I have a xxxxx - how big is it going to grow?" They give the impression of never having read a single breed book to even have the basic knowledge. Surely that is the first place to start?

The people who write the breed books, specifically to help novice owners, must wonder why they bother. :rolleyes:

I am going to be breeding Buffy hopefully next year, but i am glad that i have experianced whelpings in the past so that i will be prepared when it happens, having worked for the met in there puppy unit i have whelped many bitches and have experianced different problems that can occur some not so nice and some that have been really easy, but Buffy will have all the relevant checks done and will be put to a suitable stud, all the equipment that she will need will be there and the pups will be well provided for from the very best food, a good worming program, boosters, all the information that the new owners will need, kc registered with endorsments, and then finding the right owners for the puppys (thats the bit i am not looking forward to)
I understand what you are saying about first time breeders, that they should be aware of the risks that can present themselves when a bitch is whelping and they should know even the basics from mating the dog to the bitch whelping to the care of the puppys, not just go ahead with it all and then start panicking about things they should have known about before the bitch is about to whelp.

how many people did you all know that were breeders, or just starting to breed say, 10 years ago ?

you cant say that you knew as many as you do now.

with the advent of the internet and the ability that everyone has to speak to people worldwide without a second thought, as you are all doing at the moment through this board, it has opened up a HUGE network of people that before would not have been available to most people.

i dont think that there are really that many people than before becoming breeders. Its just that you have that much larger network of people that you are now speaking to all with much easier access to the internet, so you are hearing about more breeders than you would have ten years ago.

if i remember rightly, theres 1200+ people belong to this board ? thats 1200+ people that you wouldnt have had the chance to speak to a few years ago, so the chances of you hearing of those people being breeders would have probably been nil.

My point is :-
if you werent using the internet you wouldnt have heard of 99% of these people beeing breeders, so the question wouldnt have come up.

Would it ???

Z

(ducking down REAL low :) )

Hi all,

I've not posted for a while, but this subject really interested me.

It seems the original poster was trying to get across that we have to do a lot of research before we even think about breeding our bitches....there is a lot of work involved...and a lot of money for that matter!

I agree that Champdogs is a great place to learn and to get advice....but even so...sometimes I wonder about some of the questions we get here!!

I'm sure you'll agree though that most of us are extremely responsible owners and breeders....and also, that we all have to start somewhere.....I am relatively new to my breed (German shepherds) and have learned a lot here...I certainly appreciate all of the good advice that has been given.
My bitch is due to whelp in around 3 weeks...(yes..she's hip scored....fantastic stud etc!!!) This is her (and my) first litter so I read through all the posts with interest.
I am lucky in that, I have my breeder, who's also the owner of the stud dog, and my vet around for help and advice.

Again...I really appreciate all of the help I've had here, and I'm sure others do (even though sometimes the same questions are asked over and over again!!!) I just hope that one day when (hopefully!!) I'm an experienced breeder I can help others the way everyone has helped me....as I said, we all have to start somewhere!!!

Okay...I've finishe rambling now!!

Take care

Lisa

Thankfully a lot of you have realised just what I was trying to say in my original post.

Before considering breeding your bitch or studding your dog PLEASE PLEASE think and then think again.

When we breed we are putting our much loved pet into a situation where we risk her health, her puppies health and our sanity, and it can cause a a lot of heatbreak and grief. We risk a change in our dogs personality from a loving pet to a rampant stud dog, there are sexually transmitted infections out there that can kill him.

Usually everything goes OK, but please take on board that bitches do die when whelping, they can need c-sections, you can end up with a litter of puppies that no-one wants, you can get the puppy buyer from hell, who buy them and then dumps them, you can end up in a court if someone decides that you haven't done enough research and have produced dogs with hereditary problems, etc. etc.

Breeding is a minefield, and as I said in my original post

Do your research properly weigh up the pro's and cons, but please do not go into breeding with your eyes closed.

None of what I have said has been aimed at any one person, and if what I have said makes just one person change there mind, then it has been worth the effort.

Jayne

Perfectly put :)

Hi Lisa

I agree entirely and hope you let us all know how you get on and how things are going as they progress. :) - photos too are always a bonus for me LOL :D

Gina :p

I must admit I never went to any ante natal classes when I had Florence my first eleven years ago and don't intend on doing so with this lump either ! I cannot stand anybody telling me how I should bring up my babies as I feel I am capable to do this by myself as millions of women have done so before ! It is a natural instinct. I do however go on a board at the moment with women who are due the same time as me and I am absolutely gob smacked about the questions they are asking, some so stupid but perhaps not to them !! I must admit I feel like replying with some really sarcastic answers but hold back as I know being pregnant any sort of critisism would cause a lot of upset ! :) It is however the Net that is enabling the ability now for the wider audience and so therefore people feel they are able to use this to gather and gain information and but sometimes too much information is dangerous ! I have used the net to gain valuble information re a condition I have SPD (Pelvic problem). I have got a severe form of it which has almost left me housebound now for nearly five months and would be in a far worse state if I had not been able to gather information to help me in getting the best treatment. It could mean that I end up on morphine soon if it gets worse and the baby and I will have to go on a withdrawl program as we would both have an addiction if on it for a certain length of time. I may well have stopped that happening by getting valuable information but we shall see.

I would however say having a bitch and breeding to me is a diffferent kettle of fish. Firstly the bitch cannot talk so cannot tell you when something is wrong but there will in most cases be physical signs? It is how to read these signs to conclude what the problem is and until you have become an experienced breeder then perhaps it is where the advice is sought. However you should get as much information prior to going into this as the bitch and the puppies are relying on you to intervene if anything does indeed go wrong. It is somebodies elses life you are looking after and not your own so therefore it is only right to get as much information prior to the event. I would hate to have a Doctor or Midwife who had just read a book on giving birth rather than going through intensive training to enable the proper care needed for me to Whelp ! :D

Lucy