HI Leigh

It's not a matter of asking Fido if it's OK - I don't train like that! It's neither does anyone I know! It's a case, for me, of getting the dog happy with the commands and if there is a problem such as growling, work out why. I have alwasy "asked" (as in "commanded":) ) my dogs off sofas etc. And I have always but always taken away anything from my dogs!!!

Lindsay

agree with the pack leader thing ,ive had rotties before and on occasions when one hasnt made show standards have rehomed one, at the time of going i could do anything with these males, file their nails ,take bones from them ,infact if i walked closley to where they where lying chewing a bone and stood still, theyd leave the bone and move away, within weeks id get calls ,i cant touch his feet ,i cant pass his food bowl etc. the dog would be brought to my home and id file his nails ,move him around the house with a shove etc, the owners couldnt believe what i'd be allowed to do with the dog,
another just recent one was a pup i sold at 8 weeks, male from the softest temperamented bitch ive ever owned, i checked regularly to see how things where, always got a everythings fine,-until it bit the vet, then i got a call, so i travelled through and from a distance at an arranged time with the owner and the vet watched this dog going to the vets, the owner was so in love with this dog she couldnt tell it off, and boy did it know, it grumped and twisted in the vets, the owner was frightened to put it on a table-cos he wouldnt like it!. anyhow after watching the performance i travelled back to her home and watched,the dog got on a chair and made itself comfy, i asked them to get him off, he'll bite if we try, sure enough when they went toward him he flew at them, this pup was around 4-5 mths, i attatched a flat collar and left a long leader trailing and let him settle on the chair, then told him off,he eyeballed and set himself ,so i repeated off and just pulled him off by the lead ,he would of bitten me had i got hold of his collar, this was repeated many times, the first time he squared up and eyeballed me, i verbally gave it to him, while keeping eyecontact, he backed down, before the night was done ,the lead was off, i could get to do anything i wanted with him, ear drops etc as he wouldnt let his owners, i showed them lots of ways to assert themselves and touch wood its working, even the vet could see a difference, im not writing this to make myself sound clever, its to explain how a dog views the person asking it to do something, the border terrier would of been grabbed by the scruff the very first time it growled ,shook and really told what for then put into a cage or out of the room, a lot of folk dont want to hurt the dogs feelings, or think the dog wont like them , the pup i went to see now loves its owner and is far more responsive, i agree you have to be top dog, it isn't always in a physical way. stance ,expression etc play a big part too, but i think its something most folk have to learn,im 20years down the road

I think that 'dog sense' and 'reading' dogs is something that you pick up as you go along too :-) We were talking about this the other night and I suggested that *Dog Knowledge* isn't passed down from generation to generation like it used to be. Do you agree?

Do you think that TV programmes that cover cruelty and *training* in the same breath almost, have caused the lines between the two to becoming blurred?

It does strike me that common sense is becoming unfashionable :-) Not only in dogs, I hasten to add!

Leigh

Current thinking would question whether we can indeed be pack leader as we are not dogs and our dogs know this.Alpha male and Alpha female will mate, therefore can we be alpha anything? The pack will have an alpha dog (either sex) and as long as a healthy repect for us comes from that Alpha animal we are OK.I sort of agree that you SHOULD be able to take food or indeed anything from your dog but they are ways of teaching him this such as adding food to his bowl when he is eating. He is to know that he only gets fed cause you say so but it is pointless to be confrontational over a food bowl when you can train him to not bat an eyelid if you take the bowl. the main thing is that it IS important to be able to take anything away from your dog whatever your views on the pack leader theory.
Diane

I absolutely agree with you Dianne!

Lindsay

I wish I could do the cut and paste thingy - Leigh I think we may mean the same thing about the bowls but see it in a different way: I believe that any dog should happily accept havingits food taken away, but to take food bowls away willy-nilly can and does IME lead to problems. MOst dogs seem aggressive round food because they have had thier bowl taken away by an inexperienced onwer who believes that this is how you teach them it's OK. When i was a homechecker, this was the most common reason.

I agree dogs should be treated as dogs, but have you ever thought why th epack leader approach works for us in our modern environments? I too have seen unhappy dogs because of owners not being in control and not beingconfident, but although 5 years ago I agreed wiht the whole pack leader/alpha etc etc I don't really now. Mainly because let's face it, we would have to not allow our dogs on our beds and sofas etc etec etc.......or Gawd, they will savage us one day!!! (This is a joke by the way!!!)

Dogs do need leadership, I agree totally, and the pack leader approach does give consistency when often before there was none.

Hmmmm Leigh - no, I do not believe that all forms of control mean what you suggested at all. YOu have totally misunderstood. But I would count scruffing and shoving a pup's head to the floor as being out of control really., because humans don't know how else to cope. It's a typical aggressive human reaction. Do you really feel this is the way forward?

Leigh you are assuming I know nothing about hte pack leader approach - I have dissected it and yes ,used it and discussed it over the last goodness knows how many years. And a very good friend of mine who worked with John Fisher (who helped to bring this very approach to the more generrral dog owning public) has abandoned it in favour of a more subtle approach. John himself was changing his mind before he sadly died., and he even wrote books about it, he believed in it so much!

>>Hmmmm Leigh - no, I do not believe that all forms of control mean what you suggested at all. YOu have totally misunderstood. But I would count scruffing and shoving a pup's head to the floor as being out of control really., because humans don't know how else to cope. It's a typical aggressive human reaction. Do you really feel this is the way forward?

Daz...........
Lindsay has credited me with saying this, but as you can see.. I did not say it. I think that this is actually meant for you :-)

>>Leigh you are assuming I know nothing about hte pack leader approach

I have not assumed anything :-)

Leigh

Oh heck now what have i done!!! gulp!! :)

Leigh, you say you haven't assumed anything but your reply went into lots of detail about pack leadership and so on, and you did rather speak as if you thought i knew nothing, leastways that is how it came across :p

Lindsay

im sorry but have to disagree on that one----scruffing a pup and holding its head low is certainly not a human reaction, ive watched many a bitch do excactly that to a wayward pup, howver ive never seen one take a titbit up to its offsprings bowl and drop it in so they'd allow her near it, it works on a ---if i want it i'll take it response. dogs are very basic, learn and live as a pack, and ive never ever had to hesitate while approaching my dogs bowls, not because im physically at them but because of the certain things i expect from my dogs and the respect i demand from each and every one of them,if a dog has no respect for its owner then its often a nightmare amongst other dogs and people ,as it gives itself a status that perhaps other folk and there dogs dont agree with, then when the said dog isnt given the grovelling it expects from others it meets it causes a reaction, as he see's himself as superior and no-ones told him any different,

I agree with a large proportion of what you say Dizzy, but dogs do know we aren't dogs. Yes bitches do do this - BUT IMHO no human can ever imitate the speed, efficiency and absolute correctness of a bitch. That is precisely one reason why it's best, i feel, to use differnt methods. Why shove a pup's nose into the ground when we can do it differently?

Lindsay

i didnt mean to shove its nose into the ground, only to hold it down low so i was asserting myself over it, and releasing it when i wanted to, the reason i use it is cos it works, as long as its instant, and not a few seconds or minutes after the event, its also the way it understands as its dam will more than likely of used the same way too, therefore it wont get confused or have to be taught its done wrong, it will be sure and accept that its lower and not to see you as less than it, sorry but its the way ive done it for years, it just comes natural to me and works for me ,ive never had my dogs go for others outside and never have had my dogs try to get the upperhand and i honestly think theyre happier with that,

I do understand where you are coming from, we shall have to agree to disagree on this though(sorry for saying "shove its nose into the ground", that mayhave come across wrongly.) :)

Lindsay

Sorry this is very quick reply when I have a little more time I will reply in full.

Lindsay I have to say that I have taken offence at what you said in your reply to me, your statement about using Brains rather rather Brawn was very pointed.

I take it that you are meaning by your statement that you consider that I beat my dogs into submission, which anyone who knows me will dispute.

What I do have is control of my pack who all love me to death and I respect their positions below me in the pack and I love them to death as well.

I would like to know what actual hands on experience you have or is a lot of your knowledge book learning!!!!!

I fully believe that 30 odd years spent dealing with all types of animals both in the home and at work and may I add very successfully, qualifies me to know what I am talking about. Certainly 15 plus years of owning and loving Borders Terriers means that I do know the breed just a little.

What I do think you should do is respect the fact that other people may have more experience of individual breed temperaments than you do, and that all dogs need to be dealt with using different methods according to their breed.

Regards

Daz

Sorry to have upset you :) it honestly wasn't meant in an offensive way, I promise. It was meant as a joke, that's why I put the <g> there. It was written early this morning and was the expression which came to mind, I wasn't referring to you personally, but to the general attitude of "the dog growls so we will aggress too" . Oh dear, I'm still not explaining very well but i hope you understand what i mean.

Gosh, as i read down your post, you do seem rather angry towards me!! Do i really have to justify myself so much?

I do of course respect your experience BUT we have also all been breathing air for our lives yet that doesn't make us chemists does it! :)I too have over 30 years experience in dogs, if you count my teenage years which were spent walking all the neighbours' dogs and helping at kennels! But I only really got to grips with *why* dogs do things a few years ago.

NOT being rude, so please don't take it that way, but i have met many people in dogs for many years and they know less than some of the kids at our dog club!! It's true!!! Experience is so importatn, but anyone who has been indogs for 10 years may know more than one who has been in dogs for 50. It depends on how much people want. But please don't suggest that I know LESS than you because I don't own 11 BT's. Does that mean that we both knowless than the lady with a BC, a Lhasa and 3 Mastiffs?!

Your rather curt suggestion that my knowledge is book learning is a little below the belt, and I would like to know where you get that thought from please?

It's not true by the way;since you ask, I have worked in kennels (several different ones) and shadowed behaviourists, as well as helping local dog owners on a one to one basis (I don't charge.) Just today my owner Pat came to giv eme a card and pressie because I have helped her with her JRTxBC who wouldn't recall. She was desperate and I was as thrilled for her as she can now enjoy her dog. I also have worked as a homechecker and attend seminars for aggressive dogs (some of which are practical) and have done the old Canine Human Interface, and am now with COAPE doing the Think Dog! advanced. (Yes the last ones are book stuff I suppose <g>) So I am not entirely without experience.as you suggest. Plus my own and rescue and family dogs which include or has included JRT's, BC's, Lab crosses. a whippet cross, and my own Tervs. i had 2 Tervs as pups and believe me i f you can cope with that you can cope with most things!!

I'm not for one minute suggesting that I know either more or less than you, but previously you did ask what i would do with this growling pup. I tried to explain what i would do, and why. I was really hoping you would perhpas feel able to come back and discuss my suggestions, for example, as that would have been very interesting. I am open to discussion and my remark about the brains versus brawn was as i said meant light heartedly or i would not have used the <g>.

I have to be straight about this though - i am sure your dogs do love you but do you feel happy abou t scruffing a pup/dog? Wouldn't you rather use a different and less physical method if there was a way? Don't write off my suggestions, but instead why not try it yourself next time you come across a troublesome pup? Then tell me it doesn't work and i will gladly listen.

Finally let's remember that email is a hellishly difficult medium, i tried hard to make my other post pleasant, hence the friendly tone and good wishes etc. . It takes courage for me to disagree because I know many people on here know each other and all think in a similar way, whc is often - though not always - a differnt approach to mine. I dread posting on here sometimes if you want to know!!!

Best wishes.

Lindsay

I have just re-read my first post and again feel sad - I did say "Let's use "OUR" brains and not "OUR" brawns". Also the fact that I had put "brawns" instead of "brawn" is a clue it was light-hearted.

and it was way after I had given all my suggestions etc - not alluding to Lady Dazzle at all. Heavens it's a good job i don't take offence so easily :(

Lindsay (feeling hurt and grumpy) :(

OK Lindsey,

Lets start off again, I accept that your remark was light hearted, but it seemed to be very pointed, particularly as at the time only one other person and myself had replied, so obviously I took it personally.

Having said that lets take your points one by one,

You could possibly be correct when you say that the grandchildren may have caused the pups problems in the first place. Totally agree that children should not be allowed upsupervised access to a litter of puppies.

With the problems that this pup obviously now has, I would be picking it up and putting it down at every opportunity to re-inforce the idea that this is my perogative as pack leader to do this. I do not agree with giving it titbits is the answer to stopping the growling, all your are doing is making a foody of this pup who will then expect a reward everytime it is picked up, and possibly and note I said possibly growl if it doesn't get one.
Far rather give a good girl and a hug as a reward. When a bitch wants to clean or move her puppies, she does not reward them with a titbit, she expects that they will allow her to do this and if they don't woe-betide if they growl at her. Their reward from her is to be given mother love and attention!

completely agree on the attention on demand question, no puppy should be allowed to call the shots.

Agree in part here. What I was trying to say was that if the puppy was asking to be picked up and then growls it should be punished by putting it down and ignoring it. Then it will associate the fact that it is only given the reward of a hug when it behaves, and if it does growl then the punishment of being ignored will hurts it much more than anything else will.( I have often witnessed my dogs doing just that to a youngster who has perhaps pushed them too far, they will ignore the puppy until it crawls over to them belly up to try and make amends and then it is rewarded with a quick lick. This is a very difficult thing to try and explain in writing but you have to read the situation at the time. I certainly would not let a pup beat me by putting it down when it had got to a confrontational growling stage in my arms, as you say it would be held tightly until it gave in (with a BT that could be quite a time. lol) If it had only growled very slightly on being picked up then I would put it down and ignore it as explained before ( at this point I will dive for cover), but with a quick tap on the nose and a very firm NO.

I am the pack leader in this house and as such decide when my dogs eat. In a wild pack situation the alpha is the one who decides when she has had her fill of the kill and then allows the lower members of the pack to take their share. If at any time she then decides to eat again, she will go back and take her food away from them. Therefore making a point of removing food from a puppy is re-inforcing its lower position in the pack.

To walk past putting treats in its bowl is saying to the pup I am subservient to you and want to give you things to show this (again I have witnessed this behaviour from my dogs when a lower individual will bring treats i.e. toys to a member of the pack who they have had a dispute with.) Always in subservient position, never confrontational.

By the way I do not believe in leaving bowls down on a continuous basis, if they do not clear up within an allotted time then the dish is removed. If it is left you are giving the dog an excuse to protect its food supply and encouraging the guarding behaviour which will lead to problems.

I agree that growling at a pup is not the best way to react but when that puppy then resorted to snarling I do believe that a short sharp shock i.e. scruffing it and putting it to the floor would help to warn the puppy that this behaviour is totally unacceptable.

I hope that you do not find this reply to confrontational which it is not meant to be more constructional.

Regards

Daz

HI Daz

Thanks for the comments, I'll try to reply as best I can. I understand absolutely where you are coming from with the idea of asserting your right to pick the pup up; at the end of the day we do all need to be able to handle our dogs and do what we wish with them, so no "argument" there.

My thoughts are that, if the pup is growling because she is scared (maybe because the kids were too rough) then this approach may work because it may just show her that being picked up is OK, doesn;t hurt etc. HOwever if she is scared and thus growling because she anticipates hurt then I wonder if this is the best way? Also, if she is just being bolshy, again asserting one's authority may well work, for the same reason. However, my suggestion is to basically try to change her whole attitude from one of "Oh pick me up if you must" to one of "Oh please please pick me up, please touch me, yes yes yes!" kind of thing.

The titbits idea I know is sometimes not a popular one, but on a personal level i have used titbits with my young Terv pup (now nealry 8 months) and as a contrast rarely used them with my other 2. So i think it's fair to say i have experience of both methods. Giving a titbit, would encourage the pup to think happy thoughts <g> and accept the handling - but it is not calling the shots at all, the handler is. The titbits have to be high value such as liver or chicken or something special. Then, to the pup, it is worth it. Once the pup is keen and happy to be handled, thetitbits are simply phased out - I have never heard of a dog growling because it didn't get the expected titbit in this situation because by then it is also relaxed and actually enjoying the human contact. So after a while there is no need for a titbit.

To illustrate this further, i have recently dealt with a BC who would bite if touched in a certain way ie. for examination and always had to wear a muzzle. I spent a fortnight -no, about 15 days - training him in a similar manner and he now accepts having his eyes wiped and so on.

With this method I was confidnet, as he would not give any easily read warning signals - no freezing or growling. And pretty impossible to "punish" in any way because frankly he would have probably damaged me.

For me, the titbits just take the stress out of the situation, for me as well as the dog in question (besides I like titbits :) )

I agree with the good girl part too, verbal praise is valuable isn't it and voice tone is important, but maybe not the hug - perhpas if she hates being picked up a hug would not be a reward as such but I know what you mean.

I understand where you are coming from with the ignoring bit, and do use ignoring for a few minutes with my girl - can come in useful and she picks up on it quickly. But as you (I think) agree, keep hold of thepup if it is growling axtually in one's arms. I would hold it normally, and just act completely nonchalantly to show it that the growling was having no effect whatsoever, then praise and put it down when it had stopped/relaxed (verbal or titbit praise in this instance).

I am really interested in the feedback about the food and bowls, I think we do sort of agree. One has ot be able to remove bowls if they are empty, to wash, or if they are fulll but say, accidentally given to the wrong dog, or if horrors! there is a piece of say, glass in the bowl.

I trained all my dogs to "give" and they would then lift thier noses, bowl would be removed. IN an emergency I could grab the bowl, no problem. With bones i did the same, took the bone, gave titbit and then returned the bone. My dogs were always very well behaved and never challenged me at all - but i never kept taking their bowls as I don't think that is fair.

The putting the treats in the bowl is really for dogs who are already food aggressive and need to learn a bit of trust, there are a few methods i have used, similar, one is to give a morsel of food, then to add to the actual bowl etc and this way the aggressive dog will come to enjoy you near his bowl. This kind of method is used by both NCDL and also Battersea with thier rehab dogs who are aggressive with bowls.

And i agree with clearing up the bowls straight away, i don't leave 'em down either.

I know the short sharp shock can (Somtetimes? maybe?) work with a pup if it is snarling, but it is a rare pup who snarls seriously at its owners, and one has to ask why? my belief is that it has been "taught" (often/usually) to do so because it has been originally ppunished in some way and so the pup gets worse either to defend itself, out of fear or because it just won't give in. I have seen this happen several times which is why I am so against it personally. (NOt meaning to be rude Daz). I feel too that whereas the person who gives the short sharp shock may then be looked upon with reverence, it doesn't always get to the real root of the problem so you may still have a dog/pup which respects that person but yet will still react to other people.

So we still disagree on that one LOL - but we are both entitled to our opinions are't we :) The good thing about Champdogs is that we can all offer differing viewpoints and so hopefully are helpful to owners asking queestions, and they can decide which method suits their situation best.

ONce again i am writing this quite early with no cup of coffee (yet); i have read it through and i think and hope it seems OK but i will apologise in advance if i have said something out of turn LOL!!

LIndsay

I'd just like to clarify the 'using food as reward' issue as I believe Lyndsey and I think the same way. The idea of using food as a reward for a behaviour we want to see doesn't mean *always* rewarding that behaviour. The dog is an opportunist, and like a gambler at a one armed bandit, will continue to repeat behaviour that has been rewarding in the past in the hope he will receive the reward. We can use this to 'train' the animal to the required behaviours until they become 'second nature' by begining to drop the occasional reward, then by rewarding only occasionally - until finally the behaviour is so well established it comes with no reward expected or given, and ofcourse - all rewards are deducted from the total food allowance so the dog doesn't gain wait while undergoing an intensive 'training' session. After all, as a human learning a new experience do you not appreaciate it if your tutor 'rewards' with a few kind words rather than pulls you up on each mistake? Ofcourse as humans we can understand constructive critisism.
It's great to see lively discussion on this board about things that obviously mean so much to all of us.......
Happy Christmas to all.

Thanks Fran, I think you have made that much clearer than I did :)

There's lots of things I would do for a titbit ;)

Happy Christmas to you and everyone on the board, and of course their dogs!

Lindsay

Thanks Lyndsey, I did forget to answer the point about 'humanising' our dogs (and other animals come to that). I view all my animals as 'visitors' to my house, an as with any visitor it helps the learning process if some effort is made on the part of the host to convey what is required in terms of behviour in a way the 'visitor' can understand. Using 'behavioural' techniques makes this process easier and simpler for the visitor (in this case the dog) to learn.........

I hope this explains things a little more.

Fran