Something that really annoys me is people who assume that because someone does not show their dogs they should not breed from them.
I dont breed very often, last litter 1999, have a registered affix, rear fantastic healthy well socialised pups and like selling to pet homes. I attend some champ shows and know good stock, mine.

I dont show for several reasons.
Its very clicky, Im too old to play childish games.
I am not competitive.
I have shown years ago and come up against ridiculas things, like my Bouvier had a wound that was stitched and shaved, on her hock, I was told she would not do any good because of it. The same dog had her foot trod on.
People are poisoning dogs, a saluki recentlyand notably years ago a coloured Anatolian Karabash was poisoned on the bench. Both died.
Obviously this is not everywhere in dog showing but there is a lot of it.

Whats wrong with not wanting to be a part of that?

Having been involved with my breed and the showring for nearly 20 years, I am not as energentic or completitive as I used to be! I feel that after all those years treking up and down the country, looking at hundreds/thousands of dogs of my breed, winning a few CCs along the way, I now know a quality dog when I see one, as well as being able to assess the virtues and faults of my own dogs. I now don't exhibit as much as I used to BUT the day that I stop going to shows is the day that I will stop breeding, for a number of reasons.
It's easy to become "kennel blind" and think that our own dogs are the best without comparing them to others. To mate a bitch to our own dog when there may be a more suitable dog, to me, is not doing our best for the breed or the new owners. Whilst I may want to keep a super quality puppy to show, I expect my pet owners to have a quality puppy too! For a stud fee and a tank full of petrol, I can use the most suitable dog in the country on my bitch - and the chances of that dog living with me or up the road is very remote! I therefore need to go to shows to see what dogs are out there and more importantly, what they are producing, in temperament, health and quality.
As in all walks of life there are good and bad people. You will find both involved with dogs and showing, the secret is to learn the difference!
I am passionate about dogs, my breed and breeding, and believe that only the best should be bred from, not necessarily only top winning dogs to narrow the gene pool, but certainly top quality dogs, with healthy quality dogs behind them. I have found many people who feel the same in the dog show world who share their knowledge and experience of the breed with newcomers willing to learn. I consider myself honoured to be a caretaker of my breed in a very small way, with a responsibilty to pass on to the next generation the best I can in temperament, health and quality, as well as produce the best that I can in every litter, and not just produce puppies.

Val that was wonderfully said :-)

Completely agree with you Val. I'd only add that in this context "Working" could be looked at in the same light as showing. Being involved around dogs of the same breed opens the door to so much information. Of course we all hear stories spoken maliciously and soon learn to disregard those but we do get to hear what lines carry what and what lines throw what. I rarely show but I do work my dogs and I am also involved in organising health testing. I believe that to be out of the loop of information would be a serious handicap to any aspiring breeder.

Best wishes, John

hi, i don't show but iv decided to breed my pedigree bitch anyway because she has an excellent temperament which i wanted to pass on to further lines. i bred her with an experienced stud dog who is also a champion. i don't think the stud dogs owner would have let me breed her unless she was 'suitable' becasue she is a show judge herself, so i think in some cases you can breed a dog even if you don't show them. However it's probably better to show and then breed as val said because it was only for the experience of the stud dog owner that i was able to breed.
Liz

I agree John, but was trying hard to just state where I was coming from, rather than what is right and wrong! All this political correctness ........................! I was brought up in the generation when things like dog breeding were skills passed on by people with experience and knowledge, not like the "why shouldn't I if I want to" thinking that abounds these days! ;)

Beautifully put. I was wondering how to put it!

Vanya,

Sorry for quoting you >> I attend some champ shows and know good stock, mine.<<

Can I ask Vanya when you say this do you mean you use your own stud dogs? Do you buy in stock or what. I guess answers from board depend on a whole lot of things without knowing you I can't commit directly about you.

I personally think that every puppy leaving a breeder should be able to confidently go into a showring. They should be bred from quality dogs, and every litter the breeder has they should be looking to make improvements to their line. Unless someone had years of experience and really know their breeds standard inside out I find this hard to see how it can be done unless shows are attended.

I recently had a litter and chose to go to a very quality kennel who then adviced me on best selction of stud for my girl. They were approx 450 miles from me ( 9 hours on the train and 9 ours back) but went even though at home I have a quality puppy dog I could have used .I knew that with limited 2 years showing expereince that I did not really have the knowledge of what best dog to use on my girl for the correct ingredients and to balance out or compliment her. From that I guess I am saying I don't agree with people using anything but a top quality dog at stud or one at home for convience unless it is a sound top quality dog and likewise breeding from bitches that are not sound.This is my opinion and not challenging anyone elses.

Re reasons for not showing. These type of people touch wood I hope are in the minority. I have had very good advice from some of the top breeders and exhibitors in my breed, most have extended a hand. I have had wonderful support from exhibitors of other breeds and have made many good true freinds. I am still finding my feet I don't think you get expeince over night in the dogworld. FOr me it is a little hobby but my dogs are my pets mostly I do think though for me to be a ethical breeder you have to be involved somehow , however that may be. ( obviously not sure how it works for working dogs etc but my comments are based on my breed)

As I say this is just my opinion

BFN Pam

There is one thing to remember in dogs.

Get the training wrong and you can ruin the dog.

Get the breeding wrong and it is possible that you could ruin the breed!

John

I attend Championship Shows too, and I am learning to know a good dog when I see one, but have to say they are not mine, more a case of the head of that one, the legs of that one and may be the coat of that. Think I suffer from knowing the faults of mine too well, and usually only grant them with perhaps a single virtue.

Lord Jackie that sounds familiar. I often pull mine toatally apart, and then am surprised to place well, and on looking around find the others have faults too, lol! :D

Ditto John (How are you by the way, haven't spoken to you in yonks!)

I love my own dogs and the type I am getting but they aren't perfect and I am working on getting the conformation problems sorted in future generations...the perfect dog has not been bred and I doubt it ever will as so many opinions differ.

i agree with you there lily! i don't think there will ever be a perfect dog and nor should there be because if there ever was we wouldn't need to breed any more. i find it exciting that with each litter the line will hopefully improve. i can find lots of faults in my little cocker but at the end of the day she's still a lovely little dog to have. i don't think any one of us would swap our dogs even if we could have the most perfect dog of our breed. i think it's their faults that make them unique but that's enough of my rambling!
Liz

so do i have it right, that you are breeding from a pet cocker with lots of faults then? :(

no what i mean sam is that it's easy to pick fault with anything as we all have different tastes but at the end of the day my bitch has an excellent temperament as well as many other good qualities which i hope she will pass onto her pups as well as the obviously excellent qualities that the champion stud dog will hopefully pass on.

but its not a case of "tastes" - its a case of how closely your bitch matches the breed standard :)

Chloe

i totally agree chloe but i wouldn't have bred from her if i wasn't recommended by a show judge to. i don't think i've explained myself properly so i'll try again. what i mean is that my cocker is not perfect as no dog is becasue as lily has already said there is no such specimen as the perfect dog yet. my cocker does closely match the breed standards but when i mentioned tastes i seemed to confuse myself. ill give the example of temperaments to explain better. my cocker is a very friendly,lively little dog who is eager to please and obedient. this fits my tastes and the breed standards for a cocker's temperament. however a more aggressive cocker may suit someone elses tastes but not the breed standards. hope iv explained myself better now?

Hi Pam,
You say "I personally believe that every puppy leaving a breeder should be able to go confidently into a showring."

What, even the mismarks?

It's a saying in my breed "If you have one show puppy in a litter, you are lucky. Two is a miracle, and three is impossible - you are kennel blind!"

So what happens to the rest? They are the ones that go to the purely pet homes.

Jeanjenie,

If you read my mail again it clearly says comments based on my breed. Which are westies so all white.

>>>What happens if they go to pet homes<<<. Well lets see 99+% go to pet homes, but that doesn't detract from what or how they should be bred, just cause a dog can confidently go into the ring isn't to say it will be a champ this I know but if you are breeding well you should at least be proud or happy to let them go in even if never placed or winning top prizes, it is the effort and the thinking that all counts.

Not sure really why you ask about my comments, but breeding for pets or the ring however you want to look at it should be the same quality breeding, people who use the excuse they are breeding for pets only are only making excuses,

Again in My opinion..

Pam

I quite agree that when you breed a litter you should be aiming for the stars! And that the resulting pups should be of the highest quality you can achieve. "I'm only breeding for pets" is not a good reason for breeding - even the Showdogs are pets!

But you'll agree that there are many breeds which require so very many aspects to be correct for the pup to be 'potential show quality' - in the same litter as the Champion there will be dogs that, although correct in many ways, are simply not in the same league.

I was simply puzzled about your meaning, that's all. It wasn't entirely clear to me that you were only referring to Westies; I thought you were referring to dogs in general. Thanks for the explanation.
:)

You mean you don't get black Westies? ;)

Sorry, I was thinking of the thread last night! :)

Best wishes, John

Hi John, :-)

They are all born white anyway, but the bu-gars were also born diggers so they are on more than the odd occasion Black. :-)

Pam

I agree whole heartedly with you Pam. The decision to breed a litter should be to produce puppies that are an improvement over both the Sire and the Bitch. In every litter only a few may be stunning Showdogs but all will be somebody's pet. The utimate aim here is to do your homework before you take your bitch to the sire. As a breeder you must select stock that is hopefully clear of genetic diseases for your breed or if affected not breed two affected dogs together. READ! read! and Read some more. Breeders with outstanding backgrounds both in the whelping box, in the showring and in the field are valuable allies if they will share their knowledge.
Margaret

Hi
If you compare your stock to others and yours is 'good' then do others who purchase your pups show them.What I mean is although you don't show yourself if your dogs are good examples of the breed then surely someone must realise this and show them.
Archer

sure someone may think that the pup they chose is an excellent type of the breed and decided to show them even if the mother isn't a show dog herself. i don't have anything against showing dogs myself its just that in some cases i think it is possible to breed and not have to show. im not sure whether i will show this dog in the future as it seems a bit late now but if one of her pups are an excellent example of the cocker then i will certainly consider it.

vanya, which breed are you talking about, and whats your affix, id love to know if id heard of it,

Think the breed is Bouviers, Linda, and I to would be interested to know the Affix.

I may be wrong Dizzy but I think I remember 3 grey hounds mentioned.

Pam

unless im confused-theres been bouvies-tibetan mastiff-bully-glenn of imal-3 whippets-and possibly looking for a mini wire,
which breed is it vanya that you pride yourself in breeding better ones than are in the ring ??????

Goodness me, I'm very sorry but there does seem to be a tendency under this topic for dare I say it - Witch Hunting. Now don't get me wrong, I'm firmly in the camp that believes you should get as much information as possible, from as many different sources and the absolute best quality bitch before you should even start thinking re:the breeding route. No, what I'm talking about is this "thirst" for recognition as being correct, how have I come to this conclusion? One person says they don't show Bouviers but does breed,has a registered affix and personally feels that their dogs are better than any she sees in the show ring. Right or Wrong I couldn't pass comment. Then someone else starts asking what the affix is so that they can pass judgement, then joined by another making a list of the dogs that the first person has. What is to be gained by this? If you know that you are right and obviously both sides do, then as I would tell my own dogs - drop it. Now if terriers can do this, I really do think people can.

boosmum. as the poster claims she visits shows and obviously despite the qualitys of other kennels she tells us the only quality is her dogs, then it needs discussing, this board is read by many, some might get taken in by her exaggerated belief in her having the only dogs worth having, its not just those in the know, some might actually believe her :rolleyes:

To be fair to the original poster, it may only be the wording which sounds as though only she feels that only their dogs are quality. I know why you're discussing this, I only question whether you'll achieve your goals by using these methods and indeed if it is possible to achieve those goals. The majority of the dog buying public look for convenience of the breeders location and price when looking for a puppy. Do I agree with this MO - No, but its a fact. They are not interested if the breeder shows or what their long term vet bills will be, just about getting a dog. Now whatever my personal beliefs are, when posts start implying that there is multi-breed breeding going on (excuse me if that was not the intention, but that was the impression I got) when that was not what was originally stated, then you're leaving the original thread and argument and joining the relms of surmising. Show breeders have been responsible for enormous fads and fashions in breeds and whether you like to hear me say it or not, their impact on the breed is always going to be far greater in the long run health wise than some back yard breeder.

firstly, at no time did i suggest puppy farming, i only wondered wether id know the affix, to state on a public board that a lot of breeders have a bigger impact than some backyard breeders is some statement!!!!i expect they do--but id hope for the better, theyre more likely to health test etc than your average back street breeder----as this is what responsible breeders try to point out when a backstreet breeder beginns telling us all how the dogs they have are better than the showstock,the very thing happening here and you appear to be defending, it was a simple question to a very big statement ,-what breed has she, and whats her affix-is it so hard to answer,

Then accept my appologies - only I couldn't see any other reason for your listing the breeds. This is exactly the point I was trying to make, no wonder the original poster did not reply - I certainly wouldn't have bothered either.

the breeds where suggested as she said she was breeding obviously better than in the showring, i and many others with enquiring minds wanted to know which breed!!! as greyhounds where suggested, it was corrected to whippets, wheres the big deal-by her very title and conciet id imagine a reply would be expected, why make a statement then not be willing to reply ??

Hi Dizzy sorry about the greyhounds, it was whippets, I know it was something Like that LOL,

Pam

no need to apoligize :D , its what you thought they where,

boosmum,

I try never to get involved in long argumentative threads but your first post implies that you encourage avoidance of critism but I am sorry you posts are doing just that.

I feel I can vouch for the people ( not that they need me to) who have commented on this post due to being a member for 2 years here that they were not implying anything just mearly trying to establish what the problems is . Many posters start a thread off in what seems the heat of the moment and then is not happy when everyone doesn't agree with what they may have said. This is life.

Most replies are based on peoples opinions which is what the poster asked for. Mine certainly were.

Regards

Pam

"(Show breeders) their impact on the breed is always going to be far greater in the long run health wise than some back yard breeder. "
Sorry Boosmum, but I don't agree with that at all. Of course show breeders are responsible for some breeds' exaggerated points. Responsible breeders are trying to correct these problems having seen that their breed has gone too far down a problem path.
But I groom dogs for a living and the vast majority of those are pet dogs from "backyard" or even "I've got a pedigree dog and why shouldn't I breed it?!" puppy producers. I keep the word "breeder" for those interested in maintaining breed standards. The cocker sized, woolly Yorkies with floppy ears, Westies with soft coats, bad skin and poor mouths, the slab sided, long legged, poor temperament Cockers that I see, do not come from knowledgable breed enthusiasts, but from puppy producers. I have a Westie, who's only resemblance to a Westie is that he is white, had 4 legs and a tail. He needed both luxating patellas fixed before he was 9 months old at a cost of £1500. I have a cocker who developed PRA before he was 3 years old. Cavaliers who don't reach 4 years old because of their heart problems - all from untested parents. I would say that three quarters of the dogs that I trim have health problems, costing the owners great expense in money and emotion, that could be greatly reduced if the pup was bred from quality, health tested stock.
Of course not all breeders can guarantee healthy stock. When you're dealing with living animals, genetics don't work like that. But with breeders knowledge and genuine concern for their breed, the pet owner stands a better chance of buying a happy healthy companion, who bears a reasonable likeness to their chosen breed, if they buy from a breed enthusiast who shows, or works their dogs.

You're preaching to the converted. I'm aware of a great many people who do their utmost to uphold the health of their breed. But at the end of the day it's all down to a matter of judgement, a Crufts winner about whom their is more fuss created if he has a face lift than an operation for a respiratory problems, I could care a great deal about another Crufts winner, so the story goes, biting a judge. Both adding to the gene pool as we speak. My point was never about the rights or wrongs in the argument - just about the way these questions where being asked, from an outsiders (which is what I am) point of view, your point was lost. I'm now going to take my own advice and "drop it".

has vanya written any thing else yet? id be interested in hearing more of her story then maybe we wouldn't have to jump to conclusions. this is obviously a hot topic at the moment judging by the number of posts so i think it would be nice if vanya answered some of our questions or has she already on another thread? im losing track of all the different posts!
Liz :)

why so she can get slaughtered on the witch hunt could you tell me this please do you only breed show standard .thanks

i was just trying to invite vanya to clear a few things up so that maybe the supposed witch hunting could stop. this topic is not about whether i breed to show standard because as someone has already said your lucky if you do get a show pup in a litter. iim just trying to improve upon an existing line and as iv already said i would not have bred from my cocker if a SHOW judge had not recommended it to me. even though it is my first litter i have consulted a few reputable breeders, attended a couple of county shows and done as much research becasue i no breeding is not a thing to be entered into lightly. i don't think i need to justify myself any further and it was not my aim for vanya to be criticised further though i think peple have just given their opinion rather than constructed a witch hunt. sorry iv gone on quite a bit again! :) :)

well what would you like her to clear up....
and your opinion is your own as so is every body elses. whatever someones question you will always find many conflicting replies but it is down to each individual to A.. make up ther own mind and B.. to make a constructive reply to try and help so an imformed decision can then b made that is all. i am no here to offend anyone no matter how strong my thoughts are.

totally agree with you on your view of opinions i just thought that it would be nice if vanya replyed to some of the questions made seeing as she started the topic to begin with. though i can see why she may be a little reluctant as sompe people have very passionate views on this topic. :)

sorry if i sounded a little abrupt ealier its just that when reading through her original post i just think that her play on words have been taken a little out of context by certain individuals and thus tit for tat. anyway i only asked if you were show breeder only because there seems to be quite a few posting on this subject and i would just like to add to one of the points that someone said earlier and that was that you only get 1 pup or 2 if your really lucky that are up to scratch many show breeders are expert enough to notice this within the first five days of birth around the time of the vets visit so what about the mismarks ect do thes breeders who say they will only breed for show standard go on to cull these puppys because the ones i know dont and go on still to sell the puppys to prospective buyers though.

i can get a little bit heated in here can't it! personally i don't show but im hoping to keep one of mollys puppies and if he/she matches closely to the breed standard i might consider showing. i would say that dogs that aren't up to showing standards are still worth while so i wouldn't disregard them. i think all that matters at the end of the day when it comes to breeding that you try and improve upon the existing line though im only a novice at the moment! as long as my pups turn out to be fit and healthy i will consider myself to have a successful litter though it would be nice if i had some who were up to show standard if not for me but for the future buyers. as far as im concerned iv done all i can with regard to relevant checks etc so at least if something does go wrong then you know that you did all you could. what iv realised from other posts on this topic that show dogs are still pets. :)

of coarse as they shoud be sen as pets my point exactly so why then is there this debate going on about vanya as the last thing you just wrote in reply states that fact

Listen at the end of the day we are all effecting a gene pool rightly or wrongly by breeding effectively animals from the same gene pool for certain characteristics.

By inbreeding(Line breeding call it what you will, Effectively what we are all doing in the pedigree world) we are continually seeking to narrow a gene pool for 1 or more characteristics. Be it to produce a labrador that has health(primarily) as its breeders main concern or type as its main concern. what is to say that a dog with an inferior show quality to another wont be healthier than the show dog.(or vice versa)

All that is asked is a little responsibility from everyone, not to breed so excessively for one particular characteristic, or one line at the expence of all others. I think it has been shown on here the clickiness(NICE WORD) of the show crowd by the way the veirmently uphold the opinion that the dogs they produce are the best. Because they have an eye for such things. WHO SAYS!

The problem with Shows is that it largely comes down to the opinion of one person. One person who may or may not like a characteristic in a certain dog. One person who may or may not have a leaning towards a certain breed, or the knowledge to cast such aspertions upon peoples pride and joy.

Again I find myself asking about the dog world and do I really want to be involved in it. Find myself asking once again for you lot just simply to GROW UP! and stop behaving like a bunch of spoiled kids in a playground arguing over whos daddy is the strongest or the best. There are many fine dogs in both the show sphere and the pets sphere. Someone that travels only to shows will only see show dogs. Someone that doesnt will only see dogs from people they visit. Not to say that they will not be exposed to as many or an equal quality of dogs, just a group of dogs in a different sphere.

I love my dogs, for WHO they are not WHAT they are. I think most of you on here could learn a lot from that!

Hi JohnnyB,
Like you, I love my dogs. But I love mine for both who they are and what they are - it's not a choice of one or the other.

That aside, when anyone breeds a litter (whether for work or show) surely it is only sensible to try to produce the best they can? So unless you are only going to use your own animals with each other, inbreeding very closely, you are going to have to use someone else's dog at some stage. To make an informed choice of which animal to use, you must have all the information possible - and that involves seeing the animal and as many of its previous offspring or other relations as you can, to discover if it is likely to be a good match.

This will generally be at either Shows or Working Tests of one sort or another, be it agility, retrieving, obedience or whatever.

To say "I don't need to look at what else is out there" is in my opinion short-sighted.
:)

(And just to be picky, there is no such word as 'clickiness' in this context - it should be 'cliquishness')
:p