Hi
Our 4 month old GSD really pulls on the lead, and we have been taking him to training to try and stop this and my husband took him this week and the trainer told my husband that we need top get much stronger with him. She grabbed the lead off my husband and pulled the pup back but really hard that he made him yelp! she done this a few times and told my husband to do the same. My husband thought it was awfull to hear him yelp shouldn't training be fun? or is she right to get tuff with him? We use a half check coller on him but that dosn't seem to make any difference i stand still if he pulls with me and he gets bored then.Any advice on a better coller or other training method would be great please?

Hi

We too have a GSD called Ossie and at 18 months and a year of training classes! he is finally starting to learn to listen to us! He also used to pull really hard on the lead (and still does sometimes when he forgets himself!) so we began to use a Gentle Leader whenever we took him out for a walk and to training. Then we moved onto a Dogmatic (www.dogmatic.org.uk) as it was sturdier and we felt safer with the buckle rather than a clip fastening.

Os soon learnt not to pull as the head collars work by exerting pressure around the muzzle and the back of the head like their mother would. It is an inbuolt reaction for the pup to go limp when the mother does this to allow them to be moved away from danger etc so the dog stops pulling for a second at which point you praise. We still have to give Os a slight check sometimes but 'snapping' te leash but it is quite rare. Os knows that when he has his Dogmatic on he has to work so it is useful in other areas too.

Once the dog gets used to walking at your side / at least with a loose lead then you want to start putting the word heel to it. Also, whenever the dog looks at you praise and treat as that way they learn to look at you.

Another thing to do is to stop dead still as soon as your GSD starts to pull - Be a tree :-) , once the dog stops call him back to you and then start walking once he comes back to your side while praising him. We still have to do this to Os sometimes as he forgets himself. When you are walking you need to make sure that you randomly change directions and make the dog catch up with you so that he learns to be aware of where you are. We have been doing this for the last few walks and Os now visibly catches himself and checks where we are to stay close.

We are now starting to walk Os without the head collar so that he learns to listen / heel even without it which is a slow process but we are seeing some progress!

Sorry for the long post but I can totally understand what you are going through and it is important to begin solving the problem now before your GSD gets so big he can pull you over! That's the other good thing about the Dogmatic - if you control the head, you control the dog which makes me a lot more confident when walking Os by myself (Os weighs only 2 stone less than I!!!)

Anyway I sope this helps and keep us posted with you progress!

Jayne

P.S. From what you say about your trainer I think that they have the right idea - GSDs can be very headstrong and also dominant and you do need to get on top of them so that they know whose boss. I'm not saying that you should be cruel though but the above methods should help you to avoid the yelping situation anyway.

Hi Jayne
Thanks for that i have spoken to Dogmatic this morning they are are gonna send me a brochure so i can read through but i think i will definately be ordering one soon what lead would you recommend to use with it i have a webbed one at the moment and i end up with really sore hands are leather ones best? Thanks again for your help i just hope this works better that what we been doing
Jinny

Hi Jinny

Good luck! When you first get your pup to put the Dogmatic on try feeding him some treats so that he thinks that it's a good thing. Also, you could try feeding him with it on his evening meal.

When you first put it on he will probably rub his nose on the floor / try and get it off, don't be fooled. Os still does this now but a few sterns Nos and just getting on with the walk / activity soon stops it.

We have a training lead that is basically about 2.5 metres lond and has three loops along it so that you can adjust it to different lengths. We live it because you have the ability to do long leash walking or close heeling without too much bother. I find that it doesn't hurt my hands either. I think that you can get them from Petsmart for about £8.

By the way the Dogmatic should stop your pup - what's his name? from pulling so the lead shouldn't sut into your hand at all!

Jayne

I think it any trainer who pulls a dog or puppy back in this way is a poor trainer and a twit to boot - it is not about dominance :) , that is an old wives tale, it is about training and knowing how to do it. I trained successfullyyears ago using check chains, now i use a clicker - but it was all about helping the dog understand.....;)

There are several different ways to train, I would suggest trying another training school, and as suggested, invest in a headcollar or an anti pull harness, a good one is available from www.kumfi.com - I used it before my pup was trained and found it very useful :)

Good luck

Lindsay

Hi Jayne
I have just experienced the rubbing the nose on the floor/up your leg to try and remove the dogmatic (my 13 month old gsp puller). Instead of pulling forwards he pulls sideways to try and shake it off. Now I am determined to crack this - I only want to use it when I have no time to "train" him to heel or when I know he is in a new or highly excitable situation (most of the time then!) can you shed any more light on getting him to accept it - he is NOT a food orientated dog so treats don't help. It seems to be quite close to his eyes which is probably bothering him so I will go back to them to get it custom fit to his face.
Terri

Hi Terri,
Have you tried putting it on him for when he has his meals? He'll accept it more if he associates it with dinner.
:)

Having spoken to them I think it is too big - will try again with the food tomorrow when the smaller one arrives.

hi the dogmatic headcollar had definitely worked for us with our choccy beast milo, he still tries to pul a bit but there's no more back flips over the doorstep now.he always shows off when we take all 3 dogs out together, but is an angel when he goes out on his own .we just use the same lead as before, a chian with web handle and it doesnt hurt because he isn't pulling like before.good luck.:)

I'm no expert by any means, but any trainer who needs to resort to making a dog yelp to get the behaviour they require is definately in the wrong job in my humble opinion, what happens if the sharp tug makes the dog stubborn, and then makes the dog resent you. Training a dog has to be achieved with the dog wanting to please you, and having fun doing it not beating the dog in to submisson, wheres the fun in being on the end of a lead and half expecting to be dragged off your feet any moment.
You could look in the yellow pages for training classes, ask around and see ones people recommend in your area, or do a search for APTD trainers, I'm sure I'm bound to have got that the wrong way round.

Good luck

Robert

Look here for APDT trainers.

Thanks Jeanie, my mind went blank trying to think of the letters :), and then trying to do a link made it hurt.

Robert

:D :D

Hi
Thanks again for the replies it's good too know others think the force used with "Bruce" at training was unnesesary (probably spelt that wrong) I did wonder if perhaps we were just being over protective new parents!
But i have noticed that since training when we go near him with his collar he shys away where as before he would get very excited so i think he has not forgotten it bless him.
We are gonna try him with the Dogmatic and hopefully we shall have some success (Fingers Crossed) I'll let you know how he goes how long roughly before i will start to see some result?

Head coallars work because the dog cannot comfortably pull with it's head twisted to the side when it soes so. they are a management tool, but do not usually train the dog to stop pulling in themselves. Though it will become a habit for the dog to walk where you want with it on.

Most people that use a headcollar find that very quickly after not using it the dog is back to pulling. So only training will break the pulling habit, but the headcollar will make managing the problem much easier.

What one must remember that the normal walking speed for a dog is faster than that of a human.

I am a rather fast walker, and have to make a concious efort to walk more slowly when walking with some people. Yo7ur dog has to learn to so the same, and often ends up puylling when it simply isn't concentrating on you. I am not talking here about the dog that pulls from excitement, but the well mannered fairly trained one that is always finding itself right at the end of the lead, and then waits for you to catch up.

That's an excellent point, Brainless. The speed at which a dog is comfortable moving is at a trot, which is the speed they are moved at when being shown. For the majority of breeds this requires the handler to run. If a dog is forced to walk at a person's comfortable pace, it has to be going far too slowly to be comfortable, rather like a fit adult walking with a toddler.

If many people speed up their walking pace it will not only stop a lot of the pulling, it will make them healthier as well!
:)

My 15 month old border collie is an awful puller, despite being able to heel nicely at classes. I have found that even though i am a very fast walker, despite being only 5 ft(!) i can't keep up with her. We've tried everything, like harnesses and a halti (which she hated so much she still hides from me when i suggest a walk!) and although it prevented her from pulling it just wasn't teaching her anything. i did find however that when i suddenly slowed down my pace she turned to look at me and slowed down a little, so what i try and do now is vary my walking pace so that she has to keep her attention on me. It seems to have some effect, and doesn't look quite as odd as suddenly stopping dead or walking backwards or doing a circle as we have previously been doing, i think people round here must think of me as the mad dog lady!!! :-)

Hi Jinny

I am totally against check chains, choke chains, Halti's or Harnesses, because they do not cure the problem only mask it

You first must understand why the dog pulls it is either Anticipation, this one doesn't pull on the way back from the park. Dominance this one wants to lead the hunt and pulls at all times. And the Fear puller, pulls on the way back from the park. however there is also a fourth one and quite often this is one of the main reasons dog pull . the dog likes to feel you at the end of the lead it gives them comfort when they are slightly ahead and can't actually see you.

Irrespective of the reason the one answer is

1. a proper leather or canvas collar not a thin one but as wide as you can buy, thin rolled leather ones bite into the neck and i do not recommend them.

2. A six foot lead

3.A Dog.

the dog must always be on your left side. Hold the lead in your right hand the best way is to put the loop over your thumb and close the palm of the hand over the lead and the loop. using you left hand hold the about 12 inches up from the collar. Get the dog to sit step off with your left foot saying heel. when the dog pulls ahead simply feel the tightness slightly in your left hand then drop the lead out off the left hand.

As the dog get to end of the lead simply turn 180% and go back the way you came giving a slight corrective jerk and release ( DO NOT ISSUE ANY COMMAND) this is vitally important. With behaviour modification you want to try and make the dog think that it's actions that are causing the reaction, Ie he pulls it causes you to turn.

repeat till dog starts walking to heel. Normally takes three to five minutes Maximum if you are using the correct technique. then start praising and treating the dog for the correct position it is at this time you say Heel and good boy heel.

Most people say heel when the dog is out in front or behind which is tesaching the dog the wrong position when you issue the command.

Then start enjoying your non pulling dog. You may have to remind him over the next few weeks a few times but you will find it so much easier Please post your success when it works.

Regards

Doglistener

Hi Jinny

I agree with people that these headcollars don't get rid of the problem. In fact I hope I made it clear that we are now getting there with Os without the Dogmatic too.

What WE use the headcollar for is to make walking Ossie a more pleasurable experience for US while we are teaching him not to pull. As I said in my first post you need to do 'the Tree' and also teach him to look at you / pay attention when walking by praising or treating when he looks at you, also cut across your pup / walk away from him sometimes so that he has to be aware of where you are and that you control the walk not him.

That way they learn to wlk nicely without ripping your arm out of the socket! And then once you have them to the point where they know how to behave most of the time (ie. they know what heel means) but can get a little overexcited sometimes then you can begin to stop using the Dogmatic and reinforce the behaviour without the headcollar!

In reply to your question about how to get him used to it try playing with his favourite toy with it on. Also, I know it's hard to see (I am the softest mum around!) but you do have to kind of turn a blind eye as they do get used to it.

Good luck!
Jayne

I do agree that headcollars, harnesses etc dont teach a dog to walk well on a loose lead - but the heart of the problem is that often owners don't have the time in busy lives to keep up the training. I am pretty dedicated but even i found it hard to keep up the number one rule, which is to never let the pup pull against you even for a few steps.....this is why i suggested an anti pull harness, because it means dog and owner can get from A to B without any "unlearning" happening.

At the end of the day, some owners do use and stick to a headcollar or harness because it is less frustrating, and means they and their dog can enjoy a stress free walk :)

Lindsay

Well, I finally got the right size dogmatic today and so far, no trying to paw it off, perhaps because I was popping in treats left right and centre, and we haven't tried it out on a walk yet! I agree with you Lindsay and Jayne, I do not see this as an alternative to training him to walk nicely on his lead, it's just on occasions when we are out all day and I cannot be stop/start, twirling around in the street and taking forever to get somewhere. Also my 5 foot 7 stone mum is looking after him for 3 days this week and I have visions of her flat out on the floor clinging on to a lead for dear life without it. My intention is to put it on on the occasions when he loses his concentration, and hopefully the penny will begin to drop that the "horrible collar comes out when I don't walk properly". In an ideal world we'd all love to have perfect heeling dogs, but sometimes no matter how hard you try, there will always be those pups whose excitement and enthusiasm seems to prevent their brain connecting with their legs!!

Terri

Exactly !!! :-)

We'll at least until they have their GSD 'lightbulb' moment as I call it and they engage their brain before their body!!!

BTW I'm still waiting!

I use halti headcollars on all my dogs they are kind and easy for the dogs to accept used on pups they never develope the urge to pull plus u get extra control they stoped my very big and strong newfie in his tracts and walks are now longer and more enjoyable .to me i would rather my dogs wear something that ensures saftey and control and garentees a longer exercise period than them chokeing themselfs and exercise is just to edge of street while they do a pee

my old german shepherd was never lead trained, her previuos owners use to just open the back gate and there was a large field for her to run in, we had to learn her all over and she was 2yrs when we got her,i tried a halti and she would lie down on the floor with her paws over her nose and cry till i took it off, then we got sam the dobe and to our horror at 18mnths he to had'nt been lead trained, i have bought haltis gentle learders and harness, but to no avail,then i just got him a normal leather buckled collar and for some reason he has been walking quiet well, probley so he does,nt have to were his head collars, i think its what suits, sam had a choke for a while until i found out it can do damage to the spine, so out the window that went

Stan

I thought I'd pass on an update on how this technique has worked for other people I know. I passed in this info and all report that it is working brilliantly for them. Their previously pulling dogs are now getting the hang of walking nicely without pulling.

Thanks

Pam n the boys

hi
My dobe pup pulled on her lead too,so i got a halti harness.
I use it out on the street when i train her then when i get to the park she is put on to just her collar to run around for a while then back on the harness for the walk home.
I always stop and make her sit and wait if she still pulls on the harness.
She has been good the last two days as i have not needed her harness at all.
But i do think that all dogs are different as i have two shih tzu who wont wear a collar and who walk only on a thin show lead,

There really twisted just like kids....

Hi Jinny

I have a 17 month old GSD bitch and started training her to heel from 12 weeks. I don't agree at all that a so-called "trainer" should be yanking around a pup of only 4 months. Have you tried using treats? I trained my girl by holding her lead loose in my right hand, pup on the left hand side and have plenty of tasty treats. Hold the treats in your left hand close to your side (around hip height) and the pup's head should come up to smell the treats in your hand, and in so doing also be heeling. At this stage I would trickle treat the dog, ie keep popping treats (I use cut up hotdog sausages) in his mouth to keep him interested and at your side. Keep repeating the phrase "heel, good heel" in a sing-song type voice to keep his attention on you. I would also suggest finding a dog club that uses kind reward-based methods. I agree that a gentle leader type headcollar may make walks more manageable in the meantime, but as others have said, it really won't help Bruce to be trained to heel. Good luck!

I would not take my dog top a training place like that, try and find one where they only use kind methods.

I totally disagree with what your trainer did to your dog. :( There is a mucheasier way to stop this behaviour that is easier on you and also on your dog. My girlfriend has a business called Perfect Pooches here in Canada. She has dealt with many head strong dogs but do this without harsh corrections on a choker chain collar. If he is at a point where he is forgeing on you and litterly pulling you down the street I would: 1: go to a different trainer
2: buy "A Gentle Leader Collar"

Dogs will work for two reasons: 1) because they have to, 2) because they want to.
You want your dog to enjoy what he is doing so that both of you can enjoy your walks or whatever activities you end up doing together.

Find a trainer who trains with Positive Reinforcement not negative reforcement as your present trainer showed in her reaction to your dog.
The Gentler Leader is actually a halter that goes over the head so that you guide the dog my his nose rather than that strong neck which on a big dog gets stronger than some people can control even at a young age. I would check with some of your large pet suppliers for this item. Don't let them sell you A Halti. They are similar but not the same. You will notice quite the difference. No more yanked arms and shoulders. It will take a little adjustment but use a favourite treat once you get it on him and it fits properly. When you encourage him to walk with you use your voice to encourage him to come with you and give a treat. Just a small amount of treat is good. You are rewarding for the behaviour you want.

If you can't get The Gentle Leader from your pet suppliers just go on-line and look for it there. I would try these companies in the U.S., PetEdge or PetsMart. One for sure will have it but probably both. It will be the best money you ever spent.

When I read you post it reminded me of a sitution many years ago with my Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier. I was a Novice going into an Obedience class for the first time with her. I had done an Obedience class earlier with my Wire Fox Terrier but this is a horse of a different colour when dealing with obedience training. My instructor was just like yours. This same behaviour but for the opposite reason (Lagging) was used on her. My girl's obedience trialing career was ruined forever. Instead of getting 3 legs to get her C.D. (Companion Dog), she only got 1 leg at 6 years of age with 5 years of trying to qualify. She never forgot the fear but was always secure as long as she was with me in the show building but don't put me in that ring, "MUM".

Margaret :)

Hi
It's really good to hear that you are still replying to me.
Bruce is now just over 5 months and is getting a very big boy! and still really pulls, the Dogmatic arrived but was too big so i have sent back and the new one arrived today so i gonna try again.
I now have a training lead which is good and i have tried the "being a tree" and turn around when you walk to no avail but i am thinking of the treat idea!
We have discovered that bruce is great off the lead and always stays near and comes back to recall which i am very pleased with but he has no road sence at all so no good off lead on the path yet only fields not that i would expect him to be yet!. As for the Training classes we have not been back since!
I'll let you know how the Dogmatic gets on
Jinnyx