I sold a puppy on the 11th Feb 2003 at 8 weeks old. The new owner happily signed a contract stating that the puppy should be given a health check within 5 days of purchase and if his vetinary surgeon finds any problem that renders the puppy unfit for sale i will take the puppy back and refund the money back in full providing that the puppy is returned within 7 days. The contract later goes on to state that i accept no responsibility for any disease genetic or otherwise that develops later in life and after a satisfactory preliminary examination. The puppy was given a clean bill of health by the puppys new owners vetinary surgeon on the 17th Feb 2003. I was contacted on 19th May 2003 by the puppys new owner who says the puppy has Hydrocephalus (Water on the brain). Although this falls well out of the time given in the contract as a sign of good faith i offered to take the puppy back and refund the purchase price in full, but unfortunatley this wasn't good enough as they didn't want to part with the puppy. They want compensation equaling 2/3 of the original purchase price and have threatened legal action if i do not comply with their request. I am certainly not happy with giving them any amount of money and them keeping the puppy. As i know it to be insured there is nothing stopping them taking my money and having the puppy put down and claiming on the insurance. I feel that i have done my bit by offering to take the puppy back.
Does anyone have any advice, should legal action be taken by the new owners?

I'm certainley no ''Legal Eagle'' but as you've offered to take the pup back and offer a full refund ; I really don't see how they could have a case. I think it's a credit to you for behaving the way you have to a sad and unforseeable problem. Good luck, and I hope you get the pup back!

liberty

Hi There
I agree with Liberty, You have acted with good faith and have offered a refund on return of puppy, I am no expert on the law, But You could contact a soilciter they should give you a half hour free consultation, This way you would know where you stand.
Lorraine

Looks like they're trying to recoup the cost of the vet treatment - don't worry, it sounds like they don't have a leg to stand on considering the contract they signed, and that you've already offered to take back the pup!!

Annette

Have they advised you why they think they are entitled to a refund? If not ask them. Is hyrocephalus a known problem in your breed? You could always call their bluff and say that you are willing to consider all evidence pertaining to this matter which would show that this condition was present at the time of sale and that you were aware of it, toether with an explanation from their vet as to why he failed to notice it at the time of his original examination.
Unfortunately the fact that you have already made an offer could actually go against you so I would put it in writing that any offer that has been made was made on a good will basis and now has been withdrawn in full.
Bec

Unfortunately, there have been quite a few cases where a puppy owner has been able to claim a full refund, plus vet fee costs from a breeder & have been allowed to keep the dog too - this may not be morally fair from a breeder's point of view but if this goes to court, you will probably lose I'm afraid. You cannot exclude liability for genetic defects which come to light later (ie after the 7 day period stated in your contract) - again, this has been well documented in a number of case. Sadly, just because you have a clause limiting liability in your contract does not make the clause valid (in fact it is actually illegal to attempt to restrict or avoid liability under the Sale of Goods Act) The S of Goods legislation is very tough on sellers & I'm unaware of any case involving a breeder & puppy/dog owner where the puppy owner did not win the action. This is probably not what you want to hear but if I were you, I would pay up & put this behind you - it will probably save you a lot of stress & hassle in the long term.

I would see a lawyer pronto.

If you know the puppy is insured then it is unlikely that you will have to pay 2/3 of anything, assuming this is to cover medical expenses, and they continue to insist on keeping the puppy. Curious why they would come up with that as a figure. It would make more sense to me to ask for a full refund of the purchase price, under the assumption that you can neither breed nor resell the puppy if you took it back, and taking it back would cost you more in the long run.

Given these people sound either whacky or just highly upset and stressed, paying them anything without an agreement about obligations on both sides would be foolish. I would certainly expect to see a signed statement by the a vet with the diagnosis and tests performed to come to such a conclusion. It would need to be clear that the puppy's condition was genetic and not likely to have been caused by an accident of some kind.

Stacey

There is no way I would pay up. You offered a refund if the 'goods' are returned. What is what a shop would do and you could not claim compensation from them. If it did evergo to court and you lost them I'm sure they could only make you pay their insurance premium at the most.
I have taken this paragraph from the hydrocephalus assosiation, same rules apply to animals as to pets:
Hydrocephalus that is congenital (present at birth) is thought to be caused by a complex interaction of environmental and perhaps genetic factors. Aqueductal stenosis and spina bifida are two examples. Acquired hydrocephalus may result from intraventricular hemorrhage, meningitis, head trauma, tumors and cysts.
As it has not been noticed until the dog is 5 months? old then I wouldn't have thought it would have been present at birth. So the dog could well have had a bang to the head for all you know which of course is not your fault.
Talk to your vet too, they will be able to tell you how common it is and likely causes. I'm sure that if you tell these people you have been looking into it and it could be their fault they might get second thoughts. they are probably only bluffing anyway.
Good luck and let us know what you decide to do.

Sorry but in the real world, owners who sue breeders under the Sale of Goods Act can & do get to keep their dogs & do not have to return them to the breeder. You cannot equate the situation to what happens in a shop when you return goods as the courts have recognised that it is different for dog owners - you don't generally get emotionally attached to a faulty washing machine or whatever whereas you do with puppies/dogs. All these owners have to do is supply veterinary evidence that (a) this puppy has this particular defect & (b) that it's likely to be genetic (which it seems to be in certain breeds & is not always noticeable immediately) & they stand an excellent chance of winning any court case. Of course, if the breeder can supply veterinary evidence of their own that the condition is not thought to be genetic in this particular breed, then they may have a chance of defending any action. However I know of a case involving a much less serious defect than this one where the owner got to keep the dog & was awarded a full refund plus extra damages by the Small Claims court - don't think it doesn't happen because it does :-( The courts are not kind to breeders!

I still don't think this as a matter of just giving up and paying up because that encourages more people to do such things. As you say the courts aren't kind to breeders but really what more can anyone do. If the problem isn't a breed related one, wasn't apparent at birth, sale nor indeed at the time the owners had the pup checked by their own vet then I personally think it should be argued. Isn't it amazing that people who buy from reputable breeders seem to be the ones willing to sue yet the people who buy from the commercial dealers who end up with god knows what problems don't bother. I'm sure if all these dealers got sued on a regular basis they'd stop doing it.
Makes you wonder whether breeding dogs is worth it if you have to sell to the public. I think I'll give all my pups to the assistance charities (if they are suitable) in future so I don't have to deal with the sue happy members of the public.
Bec

Fair enough Bec (although for all we know this could be a breed where the defect concerned is known to occur) I just know how stressful it is for a breeder to go through a court action [$ do all the right things but still lose the case - some friends of mine were in this position a while ago & said they wished they had never bothered trying to defend the action. I seem to remember a solicitor giving a seminar on the law relating to buying & selling puppies to our breed club once & when asked what a breeder should do if faced with legal action by a puppy buyer, she said (tongue in cheek) "settle out of court" ]-) I think people do sue commercial breeders but we're never likely to hear about these cases as they're heard by Small Claims Courts & are not published anywhere. I would guess they often pay up just on the threat of legal action anyway - one of my puppy buyers previously bought a pup from a dealer which had to be put to sleep & got their money back just by sending a formal letter threatening action. I expect they just treat having to make occasional refunds as part & parcel of their "business".

Just to say that what Jane S wrote is accurate - it may not seem fair, or even sensible, but that is the way the small claims courts work. It is not even a matter of legal precedent, as that is not set in the County Court. It would be quite normal for the court to award against the breeders the WHOLE cost of the pup, all Vet expenses, and potentially even a sum for future expenses and possibly an additional amount for distress to the pups owners. A case last year or the year before where a Golden Ret. breeder had to refund the cost of the pup and £2000 on top for a dog which developed Hip Dyspalsia, even though both parents had excellent scores. Insuring the pup or not does not come into it, court wont take that into account at all. Sorry you are in this dilemma, but the best advice is pay up and be glad they seem to want to give the pup the best life possible - prognosis for this medical problem is not hopeful.
bye
Gwen

Having worked in the legal game for years I would suggest that you write to the puppy owners expressing your upset at the problem and confirmg your offer to have the pup returned to you with a full refund even though it is outside the agreed timescale, since if the matter does go to court (which is doubtful since they seem to be trying it on) the court should take this into account when hearing the case. Anything you agree with the owners should be confirmed in writing.

Whatever happens these people are clearly not fit to have a puppy are they ? You have done everything you can.

Hi Lyndsey, I dont understand why "they arent fit to have a puppy". Of course it is upsetting for the breeder to be faced with having to hand over cash, but why would the owners wanting to hang on to the pup, who they have, in all probability, bonded with and love very much, make them unfit? Surely we could criticise their motives much more if they took the cash and handed back the pup - no thought for the pups continued happiness there.

This is one of the reasons many of us on this list keep banging on to prospective breeders about lifelong responsiblity for the pups you breed - you cant shrug off your responsibilites by some wording on a contract, either morally or legally. It is a fact of life that medical conditions, either hereditary or congenital, may not be spotted at the first vetting within a few days of sale, and restrictive contracts are not legal.

Does anyone have any first hand knoledge of pups with hydrocaephalus? I have only seen 2 pups with it, in both instances it was very obvious, and the pups were put to sleep at between (one at 4 weeks and one at 8 weeks old) as the vets said the condition would only worsen making fitting etc likely.

bye
Gwen

Firstly Iwould like to thank everybody for there advice.
Wednesday 21st may 2003 at 3.00pm, I recieved a phone call from the owner of the pup, after an heated conversation on his part he ended up saying that he would accept the offer we made and would return the pup in the evening, he then went on to say he wanted the monies returned in cash and you wont have it will you. My reply to him was yes I can go to the bank and have the cash here in 10 mins. he then said right I bring it this evening and hung up. I think in veiw of the time of day he thought I would not be able to get the cash as most banks are closed at that time but fortunatly for me mine dose'nt close till 5.00pm.
It has now ended quite peaceably, I collected the pup on Thursday morning gave him a full refund on brought the puppy home.
As I have his litter sister here I notice stright away that he is half the size off her, I have weighed him and he is only 2 pounds his sister weigh's three and a half pounds. He as settled down very well and I am monitor him so when I take him to my vet I will have all the information to tell them.
So once again thank you all for your help.

I'm very glad you've got him back. He'll be much better off with you. Good luck!
:)

I totally agree much better off with you

excellent news! :) So glad you got the pup back, hope all goes well. :)

liberty

I do like a story with a happy ending. You have your puppy back and now you can care for him. I would drealy love to hear how he gets on and are you hopeful of a good recovery. Sorry but I know next to nothing of his condition.

Margaret