Did anyone see this story, I think it happened in London, something about a man being found dead, PM shows dog killed him, can't seem to find an article.
Dawn.

They think he may have had an epileptic fit and the staff piled in :-( Very sad for both parties. Man Killed By Own Dog

oh god, how awful.
Dawn.

On another board I frequent a friend of the man has posted reporting that the dog would nip at the man when he had a fit, bringing him around... A PM has revealed that the man died of a perforated ucler - and it's highly probably that when the normal 'nipping' didn't bring the man around the dog upped his response - perfectly normal behaviour and nothing to do with the mans sad demise......... :(
[link]http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?=465e19c8a289b281d175d3ae4e0b5d5e&act=ST&f=1&t=11969&st=30[/link]

I was having a look at dog bite fatalities statistics earlier this year, and came across an interesting story about a dog that had apparently killed its owner by a fatal bite to the neck. During the inquiry into the death it emerged that the owner had had an epileptic fit and collapsed, and the dog had simply grasped the owner around the neck (as it would a pup, say) to try and pull her to safety. It was a tragic accident, but the poor dog was only doing what it thought best. :(

If its the same incident...the family made the decision to put the poor dog to sleep!

Hi Jo.

This has been said before, however if a dog was to attack another animal, the main area to attack is the neck, to grab and shake as the injuries on the man yesterday and the woman you mention suggest. Is it not possible then that these animals did in fact attack their owners when they saw a weakness, just as they would in the wild?
Dawn.

As I alluded in my previous post Dawn, the formal inquiry into the woman's death confirmed that the dog had not attacked her but unintentionally fatally injured her when trying to "rescue" her. In terms of forensics I imagine that this is fairly easy to determine. If you think about it even very small wounds to the head and neck can bleed profusely, so it's unsurprising that the people who found the chap were shocked, and why the incident was reported so sensationally by the press.

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Jo

hi Dawn

this dog has seen his owner have fits before and has niped or licked his owner until he was ok, this man had a PM and was said to have died from an stomack problem, and fell to the ground the dog then only done what it had done before and niped him and when he did not came around niped him again and again and harder and harder, until it ended in a mess,

i am on a forum that has been intouch with someone that drinks in the same pub as this man and she has seen Ben the dog do this before he would also stand over his owner and watch him until he stopped fitting, the mans brother is also said to say he thinks that the dog just tried to wake him up.

Natalie

No one will ever know what really happened that day.
Lara x

MMMMMMMM, interesting but I still have doubts, that "helping" would cause such injuries, when you consider how gentle dogs can be. One other point was someone mailed me this morning saying she had read the dog had attacked a member of the public several weeks before. Now IF that was true, I can see a different side to this story.

It will be interesting to know what happens though.
Dawn.

I have only seen one pic of this dog and in the pic it didnt look like a full Staffy . More like Amstaff or cross -Anyone else seen pics ?

In the pic i saw of the dog - though weather it was actually the dog or not who can tell? - looked more like a great dane than a stafford...

No one will ever know the full story because as has been said before if the dog had been trying to revive the owner and has never hurt anything before - what a boring story that would be... And the "facts" as reported in a newspaper are only ever subjective - so we will be unlikely to find what happens out any way.

I also find it interesting that we can play judge and jury and make statements like - that "helping" would cause such injuries - when we know nothing of the injuries caused in reality, nor to what extent a desperate dog would go to if what it was doing had always helped before.

Alex

Hey Alex, we are not playing judge or jury here, merely exploring all possibilities.

At the risk of being shouted down in flames, I find it a little difficult to grasp that a dog can kill, causing these type of injuries and people think he was helping. This staff, already stated as being aggressive around other dogs,( i know thats nothing to do with people) and also was stated to have bitten a member of the public WAS the cause of the mans death, an ulcer DID NOT cause his death. (unless the coroners are wrong!)

I know we like to defend our dogs, and many of you on this board have staffies so are doubley defensive, however I also own Terriers and their very nature is to bite and kill, ANYTHING squeaking, squealing or making strange noises can provoke an attack. I think we can be very short-sighted when it comes to such seriousness with dogs, none of us like to see dogs in a bad light, especially this day and age.
Dawn.

Well, in the case of the girl that I mentioned, the medical team assigned to her case ruled that her injuries, though fatal, had not been inflicted as part of a "frenzied attack" but were conducive with the dog trying to revive her. I'm sure it can't be that hard to distinguish between a "frenzied attack" bite and a "help! my owner's behaving oddly" bite. The human neck is very sensitive - I know that there have been cases where people have wrapped their hands around some else's neck in jest to "strangle" them, and accidently killed them.

I wonder if there's any update on the story yet?

No update as far as I know Jo.

You talk about "biting to try and revive " bite her or him (in this most recent case) where? The bites on he man were extensive and NOT confined to one area, how can we ever be sure dogs try to revive people eh? you can't give them human type behaviours, given a strange situation most dogs revert to a defensive attitude.
Dawn.

I admit I do love Staffies but does anyone believe 100% what daily newspapers say ?

I dont mean with regard to this story as only the owner will ever know what his dog was like but they do love to embellish a story

Hi Dawn

I totally agree that we should be wary of anthropomorphism, but equally we should be cautious of attributing specific motives to canine behaviour which are based on little or no knowledge of the events. I think there is an important distinction to be made between competition for pack leadership and the instinct to protect. A feral dog or wolf may well attack, kill or drive away a pack leader it perceives as vulnerable, but equally it may defend the pack leader at the cost of its own life or protect an inferior. I believe that most domestic dogs consider themselves to be the pack leader at least some of the time - so it would follow that they are likely to be protective of "their" pack most of the time. I guess my greatest concern is that in view of the current "devil-dog" paranoia being fanned by the media, we should try to avoid drawing conclusions which may impact negatively on a breed without full consideration of the facts or the complexities of canine behaviourism.

That sort of thing doesn't sell newspapers though I guess!

Jo :)

Hi Jo.
I also agree about the Anti-dog hysteria which can be fuelled by the media.

One thing that permanently sticks in my mind though, is a friend of mine who owned 3 Dachshunds one of which was epileptic. Usually the two dogs paid little attention to the "fitting" dog as it was a regular occurance, however one day whilst my friend was in the garden, she heard a raucous inside. She found the two dogs attacking the epileptic dog. Most of his injuries were not gaping holes, but puncture wounds around the neck and chest area, consistent with snapping at a strange object, not a raging attack. The poor dog died from these injuries, one bite had ruptured an artery, he lost too much blood. These dogs NEVER attacked before, the fitting dog was a bitch and both other dogs were male, they never vied for a dominant position, and in her words "I would never of believed my dogs were capable of it, unless I saw it myself" Two different "behaviourists" said these dogs were showing typical behaviour of attacking a weaker subject, the fact that my friend was not present left them to make their own decision, she being the boss always took control of the situation in the past. Now if these dogs wanted to help, they could of barked or tried to alert my friend, however they didn't, they did what instinct told them.............attack the weaker party.
Dawn.

Dawn,

I was not aware that the injuries were the cause of death - it has only been hinted that it was not stated catagorically - as i understand it it was a perforated ulcer. And claims that the dog "attacked" a memeber of the public is also heresay - why is it that we are all so ready to belive that a staff would turn on its owner at 4 years old and kill him? Especially when there have been people that KNOW the dog say that he used to do these things to help? Howe would a staff bring down an adult? Why would he choose to attack this time if the guy was having an epileptic fit?

I am sorry - but i stupidly returned to london on saturday to visit my sister - adn had people hurling abuse at myslef and my 2 SBT's something that has not happened in a while. Especially after the Sun's sensationalist attack on devil dogs! Ity makes me sick

Cleo.
A staff (or any dog) wouldn't need to bring down an adult if he/she were having a fit, they were probably already on the floor.

I understand your defensiveness, this is your breed and to be honest a breed I am fond of too, but don't be blinded by your love of the breed, ANY dog will revert to instinct given the right situation, doesn't matter how big or small the dog is, or how well we THINK we know the dog, accidents happen.
Dawn.

I know that we should never underestimate any dog - especailly the strength of a staff - but why are we so quick to condemn this dog, NO ONE knwos the true facts of the case, and we will never knwo them unless the family issue a statement thatis recorded word for word - papers are not interested in relaying facts as facts dont make for a good story!

Would we be so quick to say that the dog has OBVIOUSLY, Definately turned on its owner if it were a lab or a spaniel say?

Just think that people are too ready to belive the worst of a bull breed - and yes i love them, and yes i am very aware of their down sides also

All dogs are the same cleo, I am NOT condemning the Staffie, just stating a fact, dogs attack when threatened and they will attack a weaker subject.
Dawn.

Baby dies after dog bite

it was front page of yesterdays daily mirror!

It's in The Sun as well - completely hysterical reporting full of horrific pictures of attacked children and full of words like 'devil dogs'. Mind you, Roger Mugford is quoted as saying that goldens are just as likely to bite and to punish the deed not the breed.

One thing I found very telling was the fact that the family haven't publicly blamed the dog at all, they must be so traumatised by all of this but at least they're not taking it out on the poor dog.

Staffies aren't my kind of dog (I like hairy ones) but this incident wouldn't put me off letting my children near one - with such a large amount of dog owning families in the UK there are bound to be incidents like this (although this is probably the worst I've heard of in a long time).

Very sad all round :(

Fiona
x x x

That's absolutely dreadful and so sad, it does sound from Digger's post that the dog was just trying to bring the man round and perhaps became frantic because the normal nip didn't produce the usual result - one hopes this is the case.

Dreadful for the person who found him. I hope the dog is found to be in the clear if the man did die of a perforated ulcer.....

Lindsay

I am extremly sorry for the family and for their sad and obviously unexpected loss 42 is no age at all.

A little restraint in reporting the facts, by the newspapers might of been more thoughtful given the circumstances.

Karen

Karen
the newspapers love it !!
They have no concern for the mans family and they love to highlight what WICKED EVIL dogs such as Staffies are .
No doubt this means another load of bullsh*t stories about banning etc . Just what we dont need with EU countries trying to get Staffies etc on the dangerous Dog Lists
Lel

In the Sun on Saturday they asked people to write in with their comments.
I have emailed mine to them detailing possible situations that can cause ANY breed of dog to be aggressive. The more people that send their comments in the better as the article seemed VERY one sided.
Mastiffs were also named in the paper.
Here is the email I sent - wonder if they will print it????

I write in response to your article in yesterday's Sun newspaper regarding Bull Breeds as Predator or Pet.
I have many points to make regarding some of the issues detailed in this article.
Firstly I own, breed and show both Staffordshire Bull Terriers and Dogue de Bordeaux (French MASTIFFS) so feel I am in a responsible position to be able to comment.
All of my dogs are raised with the family including my three children ages 14, 10 and 6.
My youngest daughter from the age of three has dressed up my staffies in various costumes and my dogs have happily obliged. Never has there been any objection from them, but may I add here my dogs respect and love my family and likewise my children are taught to always show the same kind of respect to the dogs and never hurt or tease them with something they are not happy with. I have many pictures of the children playing games with the dogs and never has there been a problem. My childrens friends come round and the dogs love the attention. After all the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is known as the "Nanny" dog.
My children play with the Bordeaux too. The only thing I have to be careful of there is that the dogs don't knock the children over when playing due to thier size NOT from any aggression.
So, why do we hear of these terrible incidents?
Many things can contribute to these alleged attacks. Sadly bull breeds are not only sought after by the genuine loving families they are also sought after by the "gotta look hard" image seeking folk. These people want a dog to show aggression as they feel it makes them look good - how sad. So, as no reputable breeder would allow their well bred stock to be sold to them they may choose to buy from a less responsible breeder who when breeding gives no consideration to breeding for soundness of body and mind. So the end result is you can be getting a not so stable dog with an obviously not so stable person. Well the "I wanna be hard" owner needs to train his dog to live up to the image he wants the dog to give. So he baits and torments the dog from a puppy to think it is right to jump up and rag an arm or leg. This dog is rewarded by its owner for performing to his expectations. The dog is overjoyed he has pleased his owner... Do you see the problems starting??? Sadly this behaviour can be drummed into any breed of dog but the Bull breeds are the unlucky ones that seem to be targeted by these types of owner.
Obviously this is not the case for all the dogs involved in these alleged attacks. Many dogs are sold as pure bred Staffies but sold without any Kennel Club registration papers. Any breeder can supply a 5 generation pedigree but without a Kennel Club paper to back it up it means nothing. Behind an unregistared dog there can be an awful combination of breeds that on their own as a breed are fine but mixed with other breeds be totally unpredictable. As James Beayfoy quoted in your article "was this a pure bred Staffordshire". This is why as breeders we always try to stress to any people interested in the breed, if you are going to have a Bull Breed ALWAYS make sure it is Kennel Club registared, do not take the puppy until you have the paperwork, always see the puppy with the mother and whenever possible see the father, watch the nature of the parents and how they react with strangers, children etc.
When someone buys a puppy from a reputable breeder they should have the peace of mind that only sound breeding stock has been used, not like some of your back yard breeders who just throw any two dogs together without knowing the natures, lines or traits of the ancestors, and almost certaintly do not have the appropriate health checks done relevant to the breed.
So why does a dog attack? We have spoke about the breeding issues and the irresponsible owners not bringing up the dog correctly. What about what "could" have been done to a dog before an attack?
I know of an incident of a dog - not a bull breed in this case but could be the same regardless of breed - a family pet left in the lounge with a toddler whilst mom elsewhere. Never a problem with the dog always been loving towards the whole family. Mum suddenly hears the dog growl and snap. She rushes in to a screaming child. Thankfully the child had not been bitten the dog was giving a serious warning. Later on the distraught owners were to find the dog with a very sore damaged ear. So why had the dog growled? The toddler had been pushing pencil crayons down its ear! So who here was at fault? The toddler too young to realise they were hurting the dog, the dog unable to escape the constant torture without defending himself? The fault of course lay with the mother!
Whilst I trust my dogs with my children, I would never leave a young child unsupervised with ANY breed of dog for any amount of time. Is that me not trusting dogs? No that is me being a responsible parent. It only takes one bite to scar a child for life as many of the poor mothers of the children shown in your article are only too aware. I am not saying they are at fault for the attacks as all of these attacks were done in a variety of circumstances.
Love my dogs as I do hand on heart I can say if EVER my dogs showed ANY signs of any unprovoked human aggression they would not have the chance to show a second sign. Any responsible dog own should share the same opinion. I must stress here that I am stating UNPROVOKED. For example whilst out walking my Bordeaux a gang of youths come running towards me waving their arms and shouting in a threatening manor, my dog growls and jumps towards them. Is that a provoked or unprovoked attack? In my opinion it is provoked. My dog is defending me in a potentially violent situation. Now if the youths were walking by and not shouting or threatening me and a dog reacted like that then in my opinion that IS an unprovoked attack.
Any breed of dog has the potential to attack not just the Bull breeds but we need to judge the deed not the breed. Of course victims of these attacks are going to feel the breed is to blame, but maybe if they could find it in them to look deeper into the background of some of the dogs involved it would maybe paint a clearer picture.
Finally there can sometimes be medical conditions that can cause a dog to behave in such an agressive manor as can with humans. For example a dog could have an un-diagnosed tumor pressing on the brain and the first sympton something is wrong could be this change in behaviour.
To sum up the points I am trying to make to any dog owners:
*Always buy from a reputable breeder. If it is a pure bred dog you want make sure it is KC reg.
*Rear your dogs with plenty of socialisation with adults, children and other dogs.
*Always make sure children who come into contact with your dog are taught to show the dog respect and never hurt the dog.
*Never leave your dog unsupervised with young children no matter how much you trust them - it is far better to be safe than sorry.
* Be responsible, if your dog does show signs of unprovoked aggression and any underlying medical condition is ruled out, take the appropriate action to ensure no one adult or child gets hurt as a result of an attack by your dog - could you live with that guilt?

Don't know anything about staffies, but it sounds a very calm, well-reasoned letter :)

Daisy

Excellent, Staffie.
The problem is, it is far too sensible and rational to be of interest to the tabloid press. :(

So true Jeangenie :-(
Newspapers are meant to be un-biased but we all know different :-(. Suppose proof will be in the pudding if they do print replies like mine, after all they did ask for them so should have the decency to print.

Well done Staffie - though I agree, it's far too reasoned and articulate to be published in the tabloids!

Jo

Well done Staffie- that's great:) Jo- couldn't have said it better myself;)

To add to all this there is yet another article in the paper (Sun) today- a staffie has attacked an 8 year old boy:( The article didn't say why or what circumstances the dog turned on him for? But the one thing that stuck in my mind, apart from feeling sorry for the boy:(- is how can his Mum make a statement saying *He only survived because the dog didn't knock him to the ground. If it had, it would have gone straight for his throat*- how she knows it would have done that for sure, I don't know

Alex I really do feel for you and all the other responsible staffie owners out there that have to bear the brunt of the public's reactions:(

Stacey x x x

hi Lindsay

he has found by his brother and yes it is very sad for the man and the breed as the man has a family, as for the dog he is in kennels at the local police station. wating to see what happens to him

Natalie

Well done Staffie for actually doing something !!! Althouh the "Sun" will never print information like your letter as it not sensational enough . Remember this is the paper that 'invented 'the Hillsborough lies ( being from this neck of the woods the Sun is not easily forgiven )
Cleo- I hope all the abuse doesnt start again!!
I remember at the peak of the pit bull hysteria in the early nineties we couldnt take our last Staffy out without someone having something to say or hurling abusive comments . Usually old or ignorant people saying we should be ashamed as he wasnt muzzled etc . We had a four year old child too - did people think we were going to take a wild , out of control, unmuzzled animal out with a youngster ??!!

I think that any dog can be agressive regardless of breed. As you say any loving dog, when provoked may defend itself. As owners you sometimes think that your little angel isn't capable of such things, but i was quite shocked when she first had a go at a dog because it was annoying her. she is still a dog and that is what a wild dog would do. I think the reason that staffies are often in the papers is because through specific breeding they posess the characteristics to cause serious damage. Like terriers they are bred to bite and hold on. They appear to have very strong jaws and are quite stocky - i presume from the name (don't know much about the history of staffies) that they were bred for bull fighting and they need to be tough. A dachsie for example can be aggressive but does not have the equipment to cause the same degree of harm that bigger breeds do. Well done for writing the letter, sadly the sun seems to prefer sensationalism - not the truth! Just one question, pardon my ignorance, the article in the paper mentioned attacks by pitbulls. I thought these breeds were banned, so how do these people get hold of them?

Thank you all for your comments.
I have emailed the Sun to tell them of the support on the board and ALSO the opinions of their paper!!! :D You know how people feel the Sun will not publish the other side of the coin, not sensational enough etc. So I am hoping this may well call their bluff to try to proove they are NOT biased!!! Or am I assuming they may have a concience??.......:-)

Time will tell, eh, Staffie? ;)

Hi I read somewhere a while back on dogs being taught or trained to reconise an owner having a fit,so
they could raise the alarm it was in America using Goldens.As the dogs seem appear that all is not well
with the owner a few minutes before the fits take place.Which gives the owner some warning he may about
to have a fit and also if the person fitting on the floor the dog presses an alarm button.In the same wat a hearing
dog picks up a phone when it rings for its owner.

Regards Briony

Someone in the states/Canada on my breed lists has trained several Elkhounds (who track and annoy the moose, but do not bring it down) as seizure alert dogs. Maybe the breeds who do not have such a strong prey drive, as in actually going in to bring down prey are less inclined to react in a predatory manner to the stimulus of a fitting or moving squealing object. Most terrier breeds have the drive to grab any quick moving perceived prey, and love to kill squeaky toys, and sometimes whip round and nip if trodden on, as the reactions are so quick. As vermin killers they have to be both quick and game.

Apparently some letters have been published in today's paper defending the Staffie but don't think mine has, probably a bit long but put everything into it incase no one else wrote in :-). Does not matter if not mine as long as some positive press for a chage :-)

Today's Evening Standard carries a report about a baby being savaged to death by a German Shepherd in Northern France (although in an early edition it said a Belgian Shepherd). The article went on to comment upon the man killed by the staffie, and also referred to the "1991 Dangerous Dogs Act brought about by attacks on people by rottweilers". I have written asking them to get their facts correct - but won't be published - will it? I said the usual thing - blame the deed not the breed - but that's not sensational enough!
Margot

The Mirror printed four letters regarding Staffys today and only ONE was defending the breed - the other three said that Staffys should go onto the Dangerous Dogs List and eventually be phased out like the Pit Bull !! Excuse me but they are a different category to the Pit Bull ! The poor pit bull was unregistered without any sort of breeding regime - brought over and bed by idiots which resulted in the poor dog being specifically bred for aggressiveness .When did anybody ever breed pitbulls to show ?
:(
I would love to see the statistics from injuries caused by dog bites from round the country and see what percentage were Staffys or indeed what dog came out top for inflicting bites requiring attention .
The thing is if a small dog was to bite it wouldnt cause a sensational story .
We will never know all the facts and reasons behind this sorry incident and therefore shouldnt judge until we do .
For people who do breed for aggression etc maybe can think of a way to phase them out !!!!!!!
Lel

I was researching dog bite stats earlier this year Lel, and I have to say Staffies didn't even get a mention!

Maybe the Sun and other "papers" should have done their research too !!
The scarey thing is how much power these tabloids can carry with regard to the more ignorant members of society lapping up their every word !! :(
I remember the hysteria from the nineties -I would hate to see a repeat in 2003!!
Lel

Oh dear Lel, don't let the Americans here you say they don't show! APBT shows are VERY popular over there and they were here too. Conformation and trialing is big business in the US.

The APBT is not that different to the SBT, maybe only the size of them, but they were both bred for attacking and fighting, neither breed was developed for biting people.
Dawn.

Dawn
I meant shown in the Uk - (apologies if I am wrong )
How could the pit bull be shown though if it is a cross breed ? Surely there is no standard to adhere to ?