Hi all. Max and I are going to our local Schutzhund club this Sunday to see what its all about. Does anyone on the board have any experience of Schutzhund and be able to tell us what to expect ?

Can't help I'm afraid, but would be interested to hear more about it, we are hoping to get an Australian Cattle Dog later this year and they love to work work work, I am planning to continue with agility and obedience but I'm also interesting in trying working trials and schutzhund.

Out of interest how did you find your local club and what breed of dog will you be using?

Good luck!!!

Hayley

Max is a German Shepherd Hayley. We've had a few problems in the past with him, but we found that obediance has been the key to sorting most things out. This is why we are looking at Schutzhund to increase the control we have with him. We found the local contact by looking at the BSA website.

After what you have said about Champdogs on another site I'm supprised you have come back here Tim. I can only assume it is to stir up trouble!

I am an ex-Schutzhundler and all I can say is: stay away from it. Especially, if you had had problems with your dog in the past. I wouldn't advice anybody to do Schutzhund, no way.

Taylor

I wouldn't go that far but I've turned my back on it too :)
Lara x

:rolleyes: John!!

Hi Tim

The first time you go you can have a look at some of the dogs training. Most of them are worked in a prong collar but I don't think you will have a problem with that :)
They'll have a look at your dog and a bit of a play with him to assess his drives. The helper will have a rag roll (roll of hessian) which he will try and bait your dog with to get him interested in biting it. He'll probably throw it about in front of him for a while before trying to encourage him to bite it. He'll win it off the helper every time. You will be looking for your dog coming forward into prey drive and straining to reach the ragroll rather than either backing off or going for the helper himself. It's a game! If Max is up for it then he may try and see if he will shift into defence and guard it once he has won it. It won't take long just a few minutes is enough - they can build up from there.
They will probably also check out the level of your obedience and advise you on how you can improve on it using different techniques.
Take a ball on a string with you and a solid flat collar and strong lead.
I think you can go about three times before you have to fork out to join.
You will have to become a member of the BSA and then also become a member of your local club before you can train at their venues.
Have fun
Lara x

PS.. The first thing they will do is try and flog you a load of equipment which you probably won't need so don't take your wallet (with the exception of tea/coffee money) and tell them to get lost :D

So, have I read it right? They try to encourage pet dogs to bite and attack things? Surely not?

Yepp, you have read right. That's why my advice was to stay away from Schutzhund.

Taylor

Hi JG
I have heard of Schutzhund but have never known what it was. I found quite an interesting article about it.

British Schutzhund Association .

Ali :)

Yes JG - that's the protection phase of Schutzhund. I'm sure you can find lots of images and information from the search engines.
But before everyone sounds off about it and rips things out of context - How many of you play tug with a ragger with your dogs? Not a lot of difference and I'll repeat that it is a game.
Take it or leave it!
Lara x

I'll leave it, thanks! I've spent ages teaching my dogs that I am allowed to take anything from them, and they can't take things from me. Undo all my good work? No chance!

Lara, I have seen both sides, as I have stated earlier in one of my postings. I have had GSD and GSZ in Schutzhund training, SCHH III and FH III, all three of them. So I KNOW what I am talking about when I write to stay away from it. We have had lots of *accidents* in Germany with Schutzhund trained dogs. They have now even changed the name from Schutzhund to Vielseitigkeitspruefung (Versatility) to nip the bad image in the butt. But nobody is fooled by a change of names.

Taylor

What sort of accidents Taylor ? Thanks Ali C for pointing me to that article on the BSA site. I dont know about the rag game because Max isnt very trusting of strangers, dont know if he will play along and I wont be using a prong collar.

I thought your instructor was supposed to be the expert on Schutzhund Tim? He tells everyone on another site that he is!

Schutzhund trained dogs attacked people in situations which were similar to the ones simulated at the Schutzhund place, i.e. people with walking sticks, running people etc. The tracking and obedience part isn't the problem, it's a attack dog training which makes it dangerous.

Taylor

Can someone clarify this for me, Tim is now using an electric collar on Max to try and stop his aggression and get him to obey, so having now started to cure the problem he's taking him to classes that will actually train the dog to attack people ?

Ingrid

I don't doubt your competence :) - but I have other reasons for turning away from it.
Lara x

I didn't realise that was what Schutzhund was all about, I thought it was perhaps a more energetic form of working trial - how wrong can you be. I certainly won't be taking a Cattle Dog to anything like that, they are quite dominant dogs that did to be taught how to respect humans and other animals, that is obviously not the way to do that.

Thanks everyone, yet again Champdogs clears up another query!

Hayley

Hi Hayley,

Schutzhund translated means Guard Dog. In every sense :(.

Taylor

well lara this is one person that does not advocate playing tugger with any breed of dog, haveing had g.s.d's for 22years the good bad and the ugly and now haveing whippets have and never do play tugger with any breed that i have had and that was instilled in me as a child, if the dog has somthing that you want i expect the dog to release it, i do not see a dog trying to have tug of war with me as a game,would not fancy playing tugger with a bull terrier or a pitbull doubt they would see it as a game,schutzhund should stay were it belongs in the country of origin and for those that work there dogs in the military and other forses, not for the average pet owner. regards tina

Totally agree that Schutzhund is not for the average pet owner Tina. I personally love playing tug with my dogs but they release instantly on command and I expect it. The different methods, ideals and expectations in dog training are so vast. It's always interesting to hear other views etc.. at the end of the day we will usually do what we think feels right.
Lara x

Sorry Tim, don't know of anyone in your area off hand but I do know someone who is taking their dog to one in Norfolk so I'll aks her and find out for you.

Ingrid

Thanks Lara, very informative, what are your reasons for turning away from Schutzhund ? My understanding after reading the BSA article is that Schutzhund is to have your dog under control at all times. Ingrid my reasoning here is that Max is very unpredictable and has already bitten family members, I need to control this with training. Dont know if Max has the correct temprament for Protection work, I'm mainly interested in the Obediance and Tracking work, dont know if you can pick and choose though.

There was a dog that was at the police kennels and he was a little bit bitey with people anyway, well after the training he just turned all the way to being nasty and there wasnt a nice balance between being a nice member of the family and then switching on to do his duties, so unfortanatly he was put to sleep, i would be very carefull before you think about doing this kind of training as max isnt really well balanced in his temperament.

Banger I have to say that i feel you are on the wrong track here (Shutzhund)you will ruin him if you take this route.
In fact im amazed you are even considering it when you have been given so much good advice .

Obedience and Tracking will always be good for a dog, whether pet or other, and indeed many dogs who are "just" pets would IMHO certainly benefit from these. Many dogs dont get enough mental challenge and stimulation. A very bright dog such as Max may well be crying out for this sort of satisfaction.

NOt sure about Schutzhund (the protection), as i have no experience of it, but in the Patrol Dog stake in working trials, the dogs have to be of a very stable character and basically like people.

I agree looking at the obedience and tracking could be good, but personally in your situation would suggest avoiding the protection.

Lindsay

Hi Tim,
are you the same Tim that I talked to on here months and months ago? I don't come here very often, and seemed to have missed a lot of relevant stuff!!
Are you still seeing Celia Bourne? I understood that she did working trials (might be wrong though) at Ferryhill, have you considered that?
Jo

Sorry, im a little confused here.

Lemme get this right. Banger, you have a young dog, who is lets face it, people and dog aggressive!
He has already bitten people.

And you are suggesting, that before he is in any way fully over his problems, that you take him to a place FILLED with big strong confident dogs!
I dont want to be rude here Tim, but i seriously think you need to either get the dog rehomed, to someone who CAN sort him out, or have him put to sleep. As far as i can tell, since you got Max, you have messed him about, chopping and changing your training methods, looking for a quick fix solution to problems that you have either caused yourself, or would have been predictable had you done your research before buying him.

As to training him for schutzhund work, ARE YOU BONKERS? Even if he was a totally stable dog, i wouldnt reccomend this for anyone.

Possibly, WHEN, and only WHEN, Max has settled down, and has sorted out his problems, then some form of obedience would help him, tracking would also be good.
Stick to sorting out his issues until then, and dont run before you can walk.

Emma

Let me just put you straight Emma, we saw a behaviourist for a year and consistently applied Celias methods. She is now how they say HISTORY. We have basic control over Max after using Drive Stimulation techniques for a month, we have more control of him now after a month than ever before in his 2½ years. Dont get me started on rip off merchants who call themselves behaviourists we have seen too many, inlcuding APBC/APDT members.

Re-homing Max is not an option, thats just simply passing the problem on and I'm not even going to comment on your PTS suggestion - he's a healthy dog not a toy you can just throw away with a lethal injection.

We have also been training Max every day using Drive Stimulation techniques and I am simply investigating Schutzhund as it has a good reputation for obediance levels and control - something Max needs as we have seen over the last month as he is a high drive dog.

We have seen all his obsessive behaviours such as tail chasing, back end biting and paw licking disappear since he has been getting Drive Stimulation training and obediance over the last month, something which we never saw with a year of a behaviourists methods.

Tim,
Yes, i am sure Max is a physically healthy dog, however, his state of mind i cannot comment on, having not met him.
From your posts, he seems to be a very very mixed up dog, so from what you say, i reckon he is far from healthy, mentally!!!!!!!

In previous posts, you have mentioned a dog in Max's pedigree that you think is partly responsible for his behaviour, if that is so, and the problem is genetic, then how can you say he is healthy?

From what you say, about Max's behaviour, i dont think BASIC control is what is needed. You need to be able to get to the real root of the problems, and FIX them, rather than just control him. By 'controlling' him, you are basically masking the signs he is giving you that he is uncomfortable and not happy. I can liken this (from PERSONAL experience) to mentally ill people, who are controlled with medication, and by what society deems reasonable behaviour. The urge to act in an innappropriate way is STILL THERE, just controlled!

What happens the day you dont have control? And he bites some one very badly?

I can appreciate that you do not want to 'pass the buck' however, is it not possible that there is someone else out there who could help Max?
If i thought that one of my dogs was so seriously unhappy, mentally, as i suspect Max is, then i think being pts would probably be a good thing. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but we are NOT god, and we cannot solve every animals problems, no matter how much we would like to.

If you think the risk is worth taking in continuing with Max, then that is your choice, but just look at him, an ask yourself honestly, IS he a happy dog?

Em

I have been reading the posts on this. I know that to go into this kind of training u need a very well stabled dog and full control over ur dog. I have watched Schutzhund training on T.V and when they were told out (to let go) alot of the dogs still went back for that last bite (of course they lost points). If ur dog is not stable and has had problems in the past I truely would not reccomend puting him in Schutzhund training. U could make his aggression worse and the outcome may not be pretty. After u have put alot of work into him to have him less aggressive why not work more on that? Can u let people and other dogs come up and great or pet ur dog with out any problems? I would think if u can answer NO to this then I would truely rule out Schutzhund Training.

If u need something to keep him busy why not agility, tracking ect. Those are fun things to do with ur dog, and alot of dogs love this. Junior also has some aggression especially with male dogs and since I have put him through Obedience, Novice, and Agility I have seen a big improvement in him. There is NO way I would want to put my dog through Schutzhund Training because I would be scared after putting all this work into him to have him use to people and other dogs that he may turn all the way around and be come real aggressive and the outcome would be me having PTS because of my ignorance, it wouldn't be his fault because thats how I would of trained him, right? :(

This is just my own personal opinion

ttfn :)

I think Max IS a happy dog even more so after he has been getting obediance training for the last month and we are now able to train alternative behaviours instead of his undesirable ones, something we haven't been able to achieve previously.

We have also discovered his Pedigree isn't worth the paper its written on, in fact the written pedigree we have been given doesn't even match the Kennel Club printed one - so god knows about his lines.

My point about basic control is that when he curls his lip at a member of the family we are NOW able to tell him NO and he stops. A month ago you could shout anything at him and he would just continue doing what he was doing and ignore you, we now have a starting point to train alternative more acceptable behaviour.

I don't plan to let Max into a position where he can bite and considerable 'proofing' will be required before he is ever let off the lead, we care for Max and don't want him hurting anyone, as that may be the end of him too.

I know what everyone is saying about the Protection work, but my aim is to improve my control over Max and Schutz seemed to be a good way to do this. I dont think Max's temprament is unstable, but we will have to see how he does tomorrow, presumable the Schutz people will assess him and test his drives to see if he is suitable, will let you know how we get on. :D

Well, fair enough, as i said, he is not my dog, and i havent met him!

Just be very very careful that you really do give him choices, no good just training him not to give a warning when he is uncomfortable with something, he needs a different behaviour to do, other than growl, and then bite (or whatever it is he does do).

Sorry if i sounded harsh, but i just thought the Schutzhund idea was a fairly ridiculous one. Again, just my opinion, and we are all entitled to our own!

Good luck with him, i hope you do get him sorted out!

Em

I do wish u the best of luck, and I'm sure they will asses him to see if he is stable enough for Schutzhund, and if not maybe they can give u an idea of what will be good for u and him to do to keep him happy and busy. I would check into agilty though because it is fun for the dog as well as u and keeps them very occupied which would be good for him. :)

Would like to hear how it all turns out. Good luck :)

ttfn :)

Hi Tim Tim, I'd like to appeal to you to think long and hard before you consider putting Max into Shutzhund Training, if indeed he is accepted, which I doubt. You have tried to control Maz's aggression & get obedience from him in the past in many ways, the last was with an electric collar and if this is working and you can already trust him without it at all times then you have done a great job.
If not then I would be wary of putting him into this training programme,
remember you will have to continue with the training for the rest of his
life, not just get the certificate and sit back, do you have this amount of
dedication or time ?
Even highly trained gun dogs are given lessons throughout the summer when there is no shooting, otherwise they would not be kept up to such high standards.
Once you get to level 3 on the Shutzhund, you will have to maintain complete control on him for the rest of his life, otherwise you will be signing his death warrant and hammering yet another nail in the coffin for all GSDs, if you let things lapse he may bring down a jogger or anyone.
Also there is a great deal of prejudice against this sort of training so you
would be best not to tell too many people once you have done it, your locals who don't know what exactly it is will get the impression that Max is trained to attack & you will find great difficulties in taking him out.
Please, Please consider all this carefully, there are many other options
available for good obedience, a dedicated GSD Club for one, or a Training School specialising in aggressive uncontrollable dogs, they are springing up all over the place.

Ingrid

Hi all. Well we went to the local Schutzhund club today but alas they thought he needed more training before he could consider it.

So we will continue on with Max's obediance and Drive stimulation training so that he is at a stage where we still have that missing control on him.

Over the last few days we have been able to recall Max in the garden whilst chasing his ball and are going to continue to develop this recall in situations when his prey drive is engaged.

Ingrid, do you know of any aggressive classes in the North East, Max could do with some more socialisation training.

sorry banger, but this dog is already a danger, even the services would not take a dog on wich is unpredictable, the dog has to have an exceptional temprement even to do schutzhund, this debate has been well disscussed on here before, regards tina

>>would not fancy playing tugger with a bull terrier or a pitbull doubt they would see it as a game,<<

They do, if trained properly such as any other breed.

Taylor

We have a SBT in our training class (just missed being picked for the Southern Obedience team for Crufts - got though to final qualifiers). Watching her playing tuggy is a joy to behold - she goes at it as if she will never ever let go - but does as soon as she received the command to do so. For her it is a reward for an exercise well carried out.

Christine

I agree, if a dog is under control and has been taught to drop or to give on command, regardless of breed, i see no problem with it - my dog is the same, she tugs hell for leather but will drop and move back politely.

It's all about having manners and control IMHO - then owner and dog can have fun :)

Lindsay

aoife I disagree, Max is not unpredictable at all, in fact very predictable, we have been told by numerous doggy people he probably would have done well in the services including one police officer from the local K9 unit ! He's the type of GSD you see at football matches always wants to have a go.

Will you be going back to the Schutzhund club again or giving it a miss?
Lara x

Dont know Lara, I found them a bit overbearing to be honest, but the socialisation for Max was good even though he did head butt a couple of them But I got the feeling from the organiser it was his way or the highway and yes they did try to sell me a prong collar and were a bit miffed when I said I wasn't too keen on them. :D Will have to see if there is another way to re-socialise Max, muzzled of course.

Well you did ask why I turned my back on Schutzhund - I think you have attended the same club :D
Lara x

The other thing with Shutzhund, or man-work training is if a dog is trained in this 'work'
Then most pet insurances have clauses against this, and CAN refuse to insure the dog
as it's too big a risk on their 3rd party public liability insurance.
Just thought people might like to know this.

I must say this has been interesting reading. I thought that it would be another form of obedience work, I knew that they trained to grab a persons arm, growl on command, attack commands etc, but didnt know they used prong collars. I had thought that it could be something else that I possibly look into as Sydney gets older, I think that I will stick to obedience and agility.

hmm perhaps Ill move to dancing with my dog instead. (looking around the room for saturday night fervour, foot tapping shoulders shaking, c'mon sydney lets get shaking)

This was a form of training that was mentioned to me some time ago for Murphy - I declined it purely because I did not want to bring that side of his nature to the fore ( the man-work part )
It requires total and utter control at all times and just a few seconds lapse can end in dire consequences
Liz

I would agree liz, I would never forgive muself if a momentary lapse of concentration on my part led to either dog or human being hurt.....

I'm involved in working trials now, and at the top, one can either do Patrol Dog (which is very similar I presume to Schutzhund protection work - manwork and all that) or Tracker Dog, and unless I am persuaded otherwise (which is highly unlikely i have to say) I will opt for Tracker Dog.One of the main reasons being that i think my dog would actually love manwork in trials and take to it very well - but the sheer responsibility for that would worry me each time we went out. I could never relax.

I understand it is basically a game for the dog, but what happens if out on a walk the dog misinterprets something someone does, or I forget and accidentally issue the wrong command (as has happened to a friend of John's).

I reckon you made the right decision, Liz :)

Lindsay

Thanks Lindsay :) -I'm sure I did right, big dogs have a hard enough time these days without adding to the predjudice
Liz :)