I am so distressed, last night Toby, our 6.5 month old English Cocker bit my eight year old daughter.

We had just finished eating supper, Toby was waiting for his, when my daugher went to say goodnight to him and he turned around and snapped at her face. There was blood all over her face, although on cleaning her up it was nothing more than a tiny cut to her upper lip and a tiny scratch on her nose. But nevertheless there was blood everywhere and she was hysterical and I was doing my best not to be.

We have had a few problems with him the past with possessive aggression and have had the behaviourist out to see us in October. Over the past month I have been feeling increasingly optimistic about his behaviour and could see him improving, but he has never done anything like this before and I am terrified of it happening again. Our behaviourist is currently away till next week and I simply don't know what to do.

I think that I can see part of the cause of the incident as my Mum had just arrived from overseas and there was a lot of excitement in the house, that coupled with the fact that Toby was waiting for his supper, my daughter simply should not have gone up to him to say goodnight, but nevertheless I cannot have a dog in my house that may do this again.

We are currently considering having him neutered - from what I understand, this isn't usually of any help to possessive dogs, but may it prevent him from biting again? He his such a good boy and has improved so much recently I am so devastated I can hardly think straight. Is there anything else that I can do???

Dear Helen

How distressing for you. Thing is Your pup is very much a baby and as you have said the house was a bit chaotic and perhaps your daughter caught him offguard and startled him. Having him castrated will not change this type of behaviour as I doubt it's sexual or dominance related behaviour.

Have you spoken to the breeder about his behaviour - he is very young to already have a history of problems like you describe? PLease do talk to the breeder if you can, they should know his breeding and be able to help give you some ideas as to what to do with him. Is Toby OK in all other ways - if for example he is maybe not feeling well himself that could explain what happened.

It is a very difficult situation to be in. My parents dog once bit my son but it was my boy's fault not the dogs. She never did it again - he just caught her off-guard. On the other hand a friend's dog also bit my boy - again probably his fault but we don't know that. The dog then went on to snap at other people and eventually attacked theri other dog causing an injury so sadly had to be destroyed. What I'm trying to show here are two very different examples of how one agressive turn might turn out.

I have cockers and while there can always be rogue ones out there by and large they are very dependable dogs - probably why you went for one anyway, but like most dogs especially when they are young - they can get confused when strangers are around and things are upside down.

Personally - I would keep a close eye on him, don't make any rash decisions just yet - of course you want to ensure no-one else gets hurt so you need to be more aware of whats going on around him. Make sure no-one approaches him from behind or suddenly and that they approach him gently and slowly. Then just see how he goes from there. Members who are more experienced with behaviour treatments etc may be able to provide more help if you can explain a bit more about his possessive behaviour problems and what your behaviourist has been advising.

One thing that has just crossed my mind - have you had his ears checked? If he has a bad ear infection and his hearing is impaired that could explain his reaction when he was startled - just a thought.

Sorry this has turned out a bit long. Do let us know how you get on please.

Pam n the two boys

Hi Helen i'm very sorry that this has happened to you, how is your dauther now? I cant really advise you what to do you must decide for your self but if it was me i'm afraid i would have to rehome him to a family with no children, it may have been a one off incident he was probably hyper with the different atmosphere in the house plus he wanted his dinner but even if it should never happen again you would all become nervouse wrecks watching his every move, and next time you might not be so lucky with the outcome and then you would never fogive yourself no dog should ever be trusted 100% with children because like dogs they are unpredictable and their sudden jerky movements can frighten dogs and fear makes them react sometimes aggresivly. Others might disagree with me but i would always feel if they have bitten once they could do it again your childs face is much to precious to take a gamble on what a behaviourist or anyone else might be able to do for him he obviously needs help but your home probably isn't the place but i wish you well with your dilemma Pawla

Ive read your post and to be honest you were very lucky that there wasnt more damage done to your daughters face,in my opinion there is no excuse for aggressive behaviour and possesive aggression is the worse type. personally I wouldnt be prepared to risk it happening again,we all love our dogs but childrens safety must come first.I wish you the best of Luck.

What a dilemma to be in- the best person to advise you is the behaviourist i reckon, because he/she knows you, the dog and the whole situation which we don't do on here!

I would suggest perhaps making it a house rule that the dog is always called to you, rather than anyone goes to the dog. This immediately eliminates the possibility of biting in the way you describe. YOu will then be able to manage the situation until the behaviourist gets back.

Does your daughter always go to the dog to say goodnight? Was it unusual for him? It's just that as humans we so easily miss the subtle body language that dogs give out to say they are unhappy. The majority of dogs will for example go stiff as a warning, but most people (adults included) won't recognise this as a very big "I'm uncomfy with what you're doing" sign.

So my suggestion is to manage the situation until you can get help, and also try to recall everything that happened ........ possessive aggression as I understand it can very often be resolved with work, and you say Toby has improved. There is no reason why he should bite again unless as suggested he may be feeling off-colour (for examople a friend of mine was dealing with an aggressive Weim and he eventually realised it was a brain tumour the vet had not picked up when the dog gave classic signs before attacking) but this is a highlly unusual example!!!!

I have shadowed a behaviourist and met a possessive aggressive Cocker and there was great improvement. So don't lose heart but be careful and make sure you keep everyone safe!! Good luck!

>> - the best person to advise you is the behaviourist i reckon, because he/she knows you, the dog and the whole situation which we don't do on here!

Would this be the same behaviourist that hasn't been able to get on top of aggression in a 6 month old cocker ???

Helen, I hope your daughter is ok ....she was lucky.

Leigh

My sentiments too which is why I think it would be helpful if we knew a bit more about what all this behaviour is and treatment to date has been before the family is put through more trauma.

Pam n co

Leigh

YOu have made it very clear in the past that you think little of behaviourists! Obviously you could do better! Sorry but I don't think we should judge the behaviourist. I believe the lady said they had been seeing the B. for only a short time anyway, do you feel that all dog problems can be solved with doing an alpha rollover or something?! Sorry but please refrain from jumping when the word "behaviourist" is mentioned.

I have already said in the past that there are some very bad behaviourists out there, but it's about time you realised there are also some very good ones.

If I was a behaviourist i would feel very nervous about giving advice on here! You're not being fair!

What would you do out of interest with a possessive Cocker pup Leigh?

Lindsay
I feel that there is room for all good trainers. There are good and not so good methods practiced by all of them.
In this instant, the behaviorist I believe, had been advising HelenW since the puppy was 12 weeks old 3 1/2 months is not long in the scheme of things, it is a long time in the life of a puppy.

Your question to Leigh
<<<<do you feel that all dog problems can be solved by doing an Alpha rollover or something ? >>>>
My Answer
I feel most dog's (providing there is no underlying factor such as illness, very poor breeding)problems are caused by a lack of Alpha stability 'yes' Dogs are pack animals. I feel they need to know their position within the pack. If methods create the dog to feel on an equal footing by the very nature of some dogs they will challenge for supremacy.

The possessive 12 week old puppy with food..I would have fed the puppy alone. I would have let the puppy watch as I prepared its food. I would have held the dish in my hand, made the puppy sit, and then placed the food on the floor in front of it, keeping my hand on the dish all the time while the puppy ate. If the puppy froze or growled my other hand would immediately have held him/her firmly under the chin while I explained the error of its ways. A sharp NO at this age usually works, at no time physically hurting the puppy. I would keep this up until the puppy accepted that this is how things were going to be,the food was mine and he was eating it because I allowed it.With a possessive dog I would apply this theory to all of his/her possessions ,they would all be mine should I decide I wanted them.
I would not presume to tell anyone that my methods work all the time, which is where other peoples ideas and methods are always beneficial.

I think the child in this instant was very fortunate that the puppy, who is now not quite such a baby, snapped and did not really mean it.
Leisure

I have had to deal with several possesive agressive Labradors over the years(in rescue) a thing not heard of in Labs before (by me anyway) every one was given a chance and I mean every chance possible but I am sorry to say not one was able to stay ,one even put two members of his family in Hospital!! these were dedicated dog owners who had had labs for years,he just flipped one day after many problems,he was put to sleep.It was the saddest thing for the owners and to this day they have not been able to have another dog and thats sad,they were heartbroken.
A Good behaviourist can be a God send but they are not fool proof and there arent that many good ones in my opinion,having said that we deal with a really nice one and she has helped countless adopters free of charge sometimes.Sadly this person has to actually live with this dog and to me its like a ticking bomb waiting for what may happen next.Its just not worth the risk

We fostered a labrador once, who was the most vicious swine. 99% of the time he was a loving and caring dog, but then he'd flip and go nuts and you could do nothing with him. This meant leaving him in the road, in the yard in front of a tractor, wherever he'd lain down, because to move him meant having your hand bitten.

I will always have a scarred left boob where he gave me a really good going over after I tried to get hold of his collar to take him into the house.

We had him castrated as an interim measure. His previous foster family had tried to have him put to sleep after he bit them, but the vet refused. Luckily his owner came back from Sierra Leone and collected him. (Dog is still alive and still regularly biting its owner who thinks this is OK! :( )

I think the dog was just nuts. If it had been ours we would have (very sadly) had him put to sleep. As everyone agrees, you just can't have a vicious dog.

I'm so sorry to hear about this Helen but I think you have to ask yourself whether you can take the risk of this happening again? Next time, the outcome could be very much worse & only you can decide whether you can live with a dog that may bite again if he's startled or excited. I have Cockers myself & would not want to live with one that displayed these kind of tendencies & would be horrified if a dog I bred was ever to bite in such circumstances as you describe. I would hope that your dog's breeder would want to give you support & offer to take back your pup if necessary - these would be the actions of a responsible breeder anyhow.
I know that many have great faith in behaviourists & it is possible to improve many behavioural problems with patience & persistence, but I think once a dog has bitten a child (and meant it) then a line has been crossed & you have to rethink your priorities.

Sorry to sound so negative - I wish you the best of luck whatever you decide to do

Jane

I hate to disagree with any "regulars" but I consider myself a reptuable breeder of dogs with good temperaments. I dont think that any breeder should be taken to task about the temperament of a 6 month puppy that has been in its home since 8 weeks of age. It is the new owners input that determines temperament just as much, if not more than the breeding. I thought rage syndrome had more or less been bred out in cockers. PLease correct me if I am wrong about this. Even if other puppies in the litter may be unreliable, it could just as easily be mis-management as the breeding. It does not take much to spoil the temperament of a dog that is not properly brought up. I am not trying to be unkind to the owner, and have great sympathy with her, I am sure she has done her best. However, he was upset and hungry and possibly unaware of being approached by the child. I would certainly not make him wait for his food in this way again. I'm sure I would get pretty grumpy if I was very hungry and watching others eating!! Perhaps feed him whilst the family is eating in future.

I know very little about cockers but I do have a 10mth entire male weimaraner. This is my first ever male dog and I am finding him very different from a bitch, difficult would be the wrong word to use but he is certainly testing me right now and I am putting a lot of it down to testosterone :rolleyes: I am finding I have to be more firm (not harsh) with him than I have been in the past and since I have made these changes there is most definately a difference - for the better :-)

Could this cocker's hormones have anything to do with the way he reacted i.e. what age do cockers get their boost of testosterone ??

Just another thought for the pot :-)

Hi Claire

I have both dogs & bitches (Cockers), the two boys are both stud dogs & have never demonstrated this type of behaviour. I would say the "hormonal surges" start at around the 7-8 month stage when they may become, shall we say, a little less responsive to you but I don't think this is the case with Helen's Toby as from what I remember from Helen's previous posts, this pup has never been easy & she has had problems with him right from the start. I think I remember her saying that this pup came from a litter that may not have received much in the way of socialisation due to the breeder's illness.
I have actually found Cocker boys generally to be rather easier than the bitches in that they are more eager to please & usually "soppier" than the bitches. I tend to think Helen's problems with Toby stem from his early rearing (before she got him) & would also think that maybe there are dogs with less than perfect temperaments in his family line (not necessarily his parents)

Jane

I must say, Westie Lover, that cocker rage syndrome was the first thing that leapt to mind when I first read this post.

With everything else that is supposed to have a hereditary basis, I'm thinking that this can never be completely eliminated, but can lurk for several generations as a hidden recessive.

I could easily be leaping to conclusions here, but I'm trying to take the onus away from the owner, who has had enough to contend with, and doesn't want to be shown the possibility of faulty upbringing!

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi Jo

Toby does not have Rage Syndrome. Rage Syndrome does not mean any kind of aggressive behaviour in a Cocker though this is what many people seem to understand by the term. A dog with Rage Syndrome will be a perfectly normal dog for most of the time but will have sudden, unprovoked bouts of aggression when the eyes appear to glaze over & then just as suddenly the dog returns to complete normality & will seem unaware of what has just happened. The general consensus is that there is a genetic link (but its unlikely to be anything as simple as a recessive gene) but that there possibly needs to be some other factor present to trigger the condition. Helen's pup's reaction was not "unprovoked" as we can all suggest reasons why it happened - ie he was waiting for his food & he saw the little girl's approach as a threat (we have been told he's a food-possessive dog)
I do agree that in all likelihood there is some hereditary basis for Toby's personality but that doesn't mean he has Rage - his kind of behavioural problems occur in lots of other breeds but we don't talk about Labrador Rage or GSD Rage :-)

I have done everything that I can think of for Toby, we have been to socialization and training classes, and continue to do so, since he was ten weeks old, we have always used positive reinforcement with him and never any kind of physical punishment.

He began to be a bit growly and began to guard his food at three months - when I mentioned this at the vet's she referred me to their behaviourist (I have since heard lots of good things about from people in my area who have seen her for their own dogs various problems) whom we saw at four months. She sorted out his food guarding within a week and gave us a program to follow for the next twelve weeks to deal with his possessiveness. The problem was ( and to some extent, still is) if he gets hold of something that he is not allowed he will not give it back, if approached he will growl. What we were meant to do is offer him a treat in exchange for them item he wouldn't give up. We are now at the point where probably 7 or 8 times out of 10 he will drop the item in my hand on command (this has increased from 0 or 1 times out of 10). All of his toys were removed from him except one nylabone and were only played with on our terms. We would practice the give command when he was chewing on one of his nicer toys and would give it back to him immediately, once he put in in our hand; and we are now at the point when almost 100% of the time he will give us his toys. So because he no longer guards his food or toys, and is much better with other objects is the reason that I feel he has improved so much. We were also told to continue with all of the other dominance-reducing methods that we had been using eg. no attention on demand, we eat first (which is the reason he was waiting for his food) and my daughter was given the task of brushing him for a minute or so to begin with every day (until Tuesday, we were up to three minutes or so).

My daughter has always been told not to hug him and not to go up to him for a stroke, but to call him to her - on Tuesday he had the option to walk away instead of biting her. She was crouched down to his level stroking him on his back with one hand while saying goodnight.

After reading all of your posts (and I sincerely appreciate all of them) I feel that I feel more confused - especially as I thought we were making such good progress with him and it will break my heart (and my daugther's) to have to give him up. I am going to give myself a week or so to think things though and talk to as many people as possible about it, to try to avoid making a rash decision. Although I think I know deep down that I doubt we will be able to keep him.

Hi Westie Lover

Normally I would agree with you but if you read Helen's previous posts about Toby, he has never been a typical Cocker puppy & Helen has done all she can to "do the right thing" - she has had advice from a behaviourist & has read the right books. As a reputable breeder if I had bred a pup like Toby, then I would feel I had failed - a Cocker puppy should be a happy addition to the family & any kind of aggression should be alien to the breed. You are correct that Rage Syndrome is now relatively rare but Toby does not have Rage Syndrome - he has the sort of behaviour problems that Cocker Rescue hears a lot about & I'm sorry but a lot of the time these dogs have come from less than reputable breeders (or sometimes just ignorant & inexperienced breeders) who do not breed for good temperament
& do not socialise their litters. It's unfair to heap all the blame for behavioural problems on the owners in these cases - many have tried very hard, as Helen has, to do the right thing. I believe it is normal practice for behaviourists to suggest that dogs are always fed after their owners to reinforce their lower position in the pack so I don't feel you should criticise Helen for following standard training methods in this case.

I do agree that it is possible for some owners to adversely affect the temperament of their puppies by incorrect training & rearing but sometimes you just have to accept that a dog has a poor temperament -I see enough of them to know that this is true unfortunately :-(

Jane I just thought Hormones might be an option but possibly not.

I agree it is normal for pack leaders to eat first, our dogs always have to wait until we are finished eating and we often put their food out and leave it on the bench where they can't reach it just to enforce the point that we eat first they wait and eat second. I'm just wondering though if Toby was once possesive over his food maybe making him wait the length of time it takes you to eat your meal is just too much for him. Might be an idea for Helen to eat a biscuit or something in front of the dog then put his food down ??

I think this is a very difficult situation particularly because a child has been bitten but it sounds like Helen has put a lot of hard work in with Toby and maybe the dog should be given a chance as he sounds like he has made good progress to date. It's a terrible dilemma because if he is given a 2nd chance and bites again Helen will feel terrible but if he is re-homed and turns out never to bite again Helen may still feel terrible because she could have kept him.

Helen I think you are making the right decision in that you plan to talk to a number of people and are also giving yourself time to get over the initial shock and seriously think about everything. I wish you lots of luck :-)

Toby more than likely does not look at the daughter as being above him in the pack order. The significant parts that I can see from the dog's standpoint is that the girl was crouched over him (while he was in a down/submissive posture) after a day of some confusion with people in the house and waiting for his dinner. It's the holiday season fast approaching and, whether we as humans want to admit it or not, holidays are fraught with stress -- less time spent around the home and that time spent is on holiday preparation, plus added shopping trips, minds elsewhere etc. While we may say that it was an unprovoked attack, none of us were there to see it from all viewpoints, including the dog's.

Now, from the human standpoint, while Toby is making good progress (up to this point), safety of children has to come foremost. Several thoughts come to mind: either the child can be taught to leave Toby alone unless under direct (and I do mean direct) adult supervision or Toby should be rehomed into a home capable of dealing with possessive aggression and pack order, preferably a home without children. Lisa will be the first to tell you that I don't automatically say rehome the dog without exploring all options first. But, bottom line is that the child must be kept safe while those options are explored. Neither do I automatically blame the child since I would expect my dogs to be tolerant of children. My patrol dog would go from being on-duty doing aggressive drug searches to school demonstrations where children lifted his lips, explored his ears, pulled apart his toes to count them, etc. without a pause. I expect nothing less from my dogs.

As to whether this can be attributed to 'cocker rage', I don't believe so. I'm familar with ESS-rage syndrome and in that the dog will have glazed eyes (almost red in color with darkness), be very unresponsive to any stimuli, and after going into attack mode will suddenly seem to 'come out of it' without remembering anything and be very friendly. Think 'possession' and you'll come close to what you observe in a raging dog.

Helen, I think that you do need to carefully consider all options, talk again with your behaviorist, and above all remember that when we deal with dogs with aggression problems that advancements are made in small steps and sometimes we become complacent in our progress and forget that the dog is naturally aggressive. I don't believe that natural aggression is ever eliminated in a dog, but it can be kept under control by vigilance and remembering what the dog is capable of.

Hi Jane S and Helen W

Sorry, I hold my hands up, I didn't realise there had been problems from the start. I just get a bit over sensitive sometimes, that some blame every problem a dog may develop, on the breeder. It was not my intention to uspet Toby's mum, or imply she hadn't done everything possible to improve the situation. I have recommended to people to feed dominant puppies after the family too, but in this case, now, I wouldn't take any chances and would feed him at the same time. It must be hearbreaking to have this happen, and to make the desicion as to what to do next.

Our 6 yr old son has been 'bitten' by my parents 6mth old cocker bitch on several occasions now, but each time she has growled a warning at him first that he has ignored. We've told him countless times that if Ebony growls at him to LEAVE HER ALONE, but being a 6yr old boy he didn't listen!! My mum was horrified the last time he got bitten and was all for having Ebony put to sleep as mum felt she couldn't be trusted. Thankfully dad refused to let her.

We have always told the children that if they get growled at to LEAVE HER WELL ALONE and that if they don't and they get 'bitten' then they can't expect much sympathy from us. Harsh I know, but children have to learn how to 'read' a dog and act accordingly.

As Helen hasn't said if Toby growled first or what kind of relationship her daughter and Toby normally have it's very difficult to offer the right advice. All I will say if that Ebony ever bit my children with NO warning at all and drew blood my parents wouldn't keep her as they wouldn't be able to trust her.

Fiona

In the past Toby would growl if he did not want to be touched, but on the occasion in question, there was no warning. He has been more tolerant of Annie, my daughter, than he used to be.

Helen.
At the risk of being shouted at. I would never give another chance to a dog that has attacked without provocation. In my experience it will happen again. Sorry to be blunt, it's just my opinion.
Dawn.

Hi Helen,

I'm really sad to have to say this but if I were you I'd let Toby go. Perhaps his breeder would take him back or maybe the Cocker Spaniel Rescue people.

My reasons for letting Toby go would be : He bit without warning, he's become 'more tolerant of Annie' this would suggest that their relationship is fraught to say the least and your daughter MUST come first. Can you imagine what would happen if you kept Toby and he went for your daughter again, only this time she was badly hurt.

I'm really sorry to say this but I think you have to accept that you've done all you can for Toby but he's just not a child friendly dog.

I hope things work out for you and you're happy with the decision you make.

Fiona

I hope this doens't make things evenmore confusing, but i have just spoken to a friend who has dealt with a very similar problem and the dog improved 100% - he was discovered to have a liver shunt.

I do beleive that many dogs are pts or c0nsidered dangerous when in fact they are ill but because in the wild theywould not show thier illness, they become very stoical.

Helen, I wondered did Toby have a very thorough vet check before the behaviourist got involved? If not it may be another thing to think about.....then at least if you do have to bite the bullet and rehome or whatever, you would feel you had done all you could.

If I were in your position I would be methodical and sort of, check things off (ie speak to breeder, behaviourist, maybe get a thorough vet examination etc etc ...., you know?).

good luck!

Hi Helen,

I am not an expert on dog behavior by any means, but I have to say that if your pup is only 6 months old and already this aggressive, then it doesnt look promising for the future, and I really think you should let someone take him who only has their own safety to worry about and not the safety of a defenceless little child. I know you feel bad about the dog and want to help him, but your daughter is only a little girl, and she HAS to come before anything else.
Best of luck.

Bear.

Sorry Issymum I would not even except a 6 month old pup growling at a child, yes it is a warning but a 6 year old child would not do anything that would warn't being growled at, unless I am just lucky with my children and my dogs (2 older 1, 4 months and kids 7 and 9) I do not allow growling of any kind to me or to one another , again i must be lucky mine have never do it.
Luv
Jane

I don’t very often disagree with you Westie Lover but on this I’m afraid I do. I know that not all temperament problems can be laid at the door of the breeder but there are instances where I feel that the problem is “in the genes” As you know I've had dogs almost all my life (and that believe me that is more years than I’m going to admit to here!!!) Some years ago I had a Dalmatian who I finally had to draw the line with. It's never easy believe me but just very occasionally a dog does come along who is, for want of a better word, mentally disturbed. This particular dog never started to go wrong until he was about 18 months but from then on it was a steady down hill course. It got the stage when I was almost afraid to go to work for fear of what I would find when I got home. At the end, after spending weeks talking to my vet and seeing a neurological vet, one of Dr Phyllis Croft's team, I decided that the only sensible course was to take the ultimate step! Without wishing to sound big headed, but if it can happen to me with all the years I’ve been around dogs then I feel that to everyone there is a case of, "There but for the grace of god"

As far as Rage in Cockers, it is still there! Good breeders may well know their lines and keep clear for most of the time but there was a survey of vets done a couple of years ago and this was one of the facts which the vets reported.

This is in no way commenting on the case in question, I don’t have enough information to feel able to make a comment. Without seeing the dog, it's demeanour and history and most important, the events leading up to the attack there is just too little to be able to safely say that this is just an isolated event or at the other end of the spectrum that it is so serious that it should mean the end of the dog's life.

Regards, John

g this dog and a young child in the house must be like walking a tight rope, im sorry but i wouldnt give him houseroom, its lovley to see a bond between a child and a dog, but to have a dog that would attack your child if she did something he wasn't happy about is a huge no no to me.and i really wouldnt feel it right to rehome it either, even if it went to a home witout children whos to say that an incident couldnt crop up,there are so many kind and happy dogs needing good homes that to live any longer with a time bomb in your house to me is unthinkable. what will happen when your childs freinds call around ,you're going to be on edge from day to day, im sorry to have to put this so bluntly but your child deserves to be safe in her home

further to your point dizzy, if the pup bites the little girl again he could do both serious and mental damage to her and destroy her trust in all dogs. how many times have we heard I love dogs but Im terrified of them as I was bitten by a dog when I was a child .Keeping this puppy is not an option I would never keep a dog that bites and Im sorry but if it was my child I would not give him the chance to do it again.Iam so sorry this happened to Helen.it is so disappointing to get a puppy and for this to happen , but she is lucky it was not serious and if she leaves puppy go there will be no long term damageto her little girl mari

i just wondered, when you went to see your puppy ,was its dam ok with you all,was the rest of the litter outgoing freindly pups, and what age did you take the puppy home?

Dear John, I do agree that it can be in the breeding, luckily I haven't had any nasty ones, but I have had a couple that were a bit hyper and difficult to manage, and stopped breeding from that line when I realised it WAS being passed down to the next generation. I suppose living in Wales doesn't help, it does make one a bit paranoid. I do get anon phone calls sometimes accusing me of being a puppy farmer, which is very hurtful. I do feel so sorry for some breeders you see in the doggy press who have had the bad luck to produce a pup with an hereditary disease that they did everything possible to avoid and then tried to compensate fairly out of court, only to be fined thousands and their reputation in tatters. By the grace of God and all that!! We are only speculating, as we cannot know all the ins and outs of a case, on a message board. If they have had problems from the start, having managed the dog well, then I am happy to concede it may be the breeding/rearing. Whatever Helen decides to do, I wish her the best. I do agree though that if she decides not to keep him, that he should be pts at home, and not pass the problem on to someone else. Best wishes to all concerned.

Dear Helen
I'm so sorry to hear your problem. I have a 6 month old lab puppy and 4 kids, the youngest is a 7 year old boy. At the moment the dog and the 7 year old are 'watching TV' together. I have tried to imagine how I would feel if the same thing happened here. It will be very difficult for you if you keep the dog because you can never trust him to be with children. This means that he will become much less used to children and I fear it could be a downward spiral. You can't rely on chilren to 'be careful' or heed warnings from the dog.
When I was a teenager we had a dog (also called Toby). He tended to be a bit snappy and one day my 3 year old cousin came for tea. He was stroking the dog and Toby growled at him, cousin thought he was purring , dog snapped and bit him (not badly). My father insisted we had the dog put to sleep that day. We were heartbroken, but never thought that my father had made the wrong decision. Of course we ever afterwards hated the cousin.
I'll be thinking about you while you come to terms with your difficult decision.

When I first started reading these posts my reaction was give the dog a chance.

However, it got me thinking back to my JRT, I got her for my 3rd birthday and everyone told my mam that a JRT was not the ideal breed to have as they were known to be snappy (maybe someone can confirm if this is true or not). In the 19 years I had Jess she bit me once, entirely my fault because she had been in a road accident (Jess was an escape artist) and I touched a part of her that was sore (I was about 6yrs old). Jess was my best pal, we did everything together, played at hairdressers (no cutting but lots of grooming), she would even lie in my dolls pram whilst I tucked her in and pushed her around the garden (why am I admitting this :rolleyes:. Anyway my point is that even if this is a known snappy breed my Jess was the exception for whatever reason. I realise not all dogs will like to be smothered by children, kissing and cuddling them, pulling their tails etc. but I guess I'm now thinking that if a child does something a dog doesn't like then I'm not so sure that's any reason to bite. I reckon if Jess was sick of me she would have just walked away to her bed as I was always taught if Jess was in her bed then leave her be.

I just wanted to let you all know that now I've had time to think about the situation I personally would consider rehoming the dog where there would be no children IF no medical reason could be the source of this aggression.

Sorry to hear that you are worried about your pups behaviour around your daughter.....only you can decide what the best outcome can be.
I have three kids, ages 9 years, 8 years, and 4 years and two dogs, Scarlet is nearly three now and Ava will be one year old in March. When Scarlet was a pup of around 6 months (before she lost those 'orrible, sharp, puppy teeth she ripped the back of my sons ear and he needed butterfly stitches to close it up) - re-homing Scarlet was never an option that we considered because we felt that she was just a puppy at the time and it was not done in aggression. We did have a quite a hard time with Scarlet up until the point when her teeth changed over to the adult set because she caused quite a lot of damage to our clothing by jumping up and playbiting (she really didn't know when to stop!), fortunately she only caused one injury (when she nipped Georges ear).
She's grown into the most wonderful companion, and I trust her completely, she adores my kids and I've never had any reason to mistrust her with them, although I never allow other peoples children around my dogs, if my children have friends around to play, then my dogs are placed out of the kids reach where the kids can't bother them. My children must respect and abide by the house-rules concerning the dogs, for instance they know never to disturb the dogs while they are sleeping (especially if they are in their beds), never to pull their ears, jump on them, or man-handle them in a way which might pysically hurt them. I've also made sure my kids know how to behave around strange dogs, and "touch wood" we've not encountered any problems while we are out either, in fact, my son George (who had his ear nipped) seems to have a real rapport with dogs, he's like a magnet to them, they all seem to love him, so try not to worry that this may have scared your daughter from being with dogs.
Also I make sure the children assert that they are higher in the pack position than the dogs (my kids take an active part in training the dogs, rewarding and making them work to get titbits from the kids, also my kids get to put the feeding bowls down at mealtimes making the dogs wait for the command to eat their food, all this I think helps the dogs to understand that my children are of a higher rank)
I hope things work out well for you and your puppy, whatever decision you make.
Best wishes
Mair

Hi Westie lover, I know that you, and most of the others who take the time and trouble are good caring dog people and would never knowingly breed puppies with a bad temperament. The problem with answering posts is that we almost never know anything about the breeding of the dogs in question. How often do we see posts on here which lead us to the conclusion that the person posting would be quite happy to use any stud dog offered whether or not it even had a full compliment of legs! :) So many puppies are bred by people with the best of intentions but without the knowledge to be able to insure even a fair chance of the puppies turning out right! And that doesn’t include the puppy farmers.
I believe that it is marvellous that people such as you and quite a few others take the time to try and help others by posting on here. As you well know, I can be ever so slightly argumentative at times but that is just me taking a slightly different view point at times, (and just maybe, I'm not always right!) and is not meant to be derogatory to people.

Very best wishes, John :)

Helen,
You have my sympathy for the choice you will have to make, again I am no expert in dog behaviour but I am a mum, we have two rotties, the oldest is 5, the other is 18 months old, and my son is 6 in March. He has done some terrible things to the eldest dog, hit her over the head with a hoover, poured drinks into her mouth and given her choccie biscuits and then taken them back, just to mention a few !. She has never ever grumped at him at all and when he used to snuggle on the sofa with her at night she would not move a muscle until we moved him off her. I would still never leave him alone with the dogs though. My only concern is that your daughter has only one face and you would never forgive yourself if your dog scarred her physically, and mentally.

I wish you the best

regards

Lorraine

Helen how awful i have a month old puppy and would me horrified if he went for one of my kids Me personally would have to get rid of him I could not live with the worry and if it did happen again you would kick
yourself. I used to have a dog who was funny around food and a friend advised me to put down an empty bowl and then put your hand down to put food into it. You could get your daughter to try this it worked within days with my dog. Hope you do what is right for you and your daughter
but remember (and i bet I get slated for this) you can get another pup you cannot get another child or replace what is scared for life
all the best in this difficult situation
Jane
X

why should you get slated for saying what you feel, its not a case of getting another child, its that helen is responsible for the saftey of her child, a dog is a dog-is a dog!!!!when it works out well it can be a fabulous relationship between child and dog -but i feel this dog is out for himself full stop!!!!if her daughter spent forever putting her hand in an empty food bowl then added food, that could work out great but then what would happen say if the daughter then dropped a bit of her own fish and chip supper, as she bent down to retrieve it would the dog see it as his as it hadnt been trained to let her pick a bit of her supper up. there will always be situations crop up with a dog like this,,to me its really not worth thinking any longer about, the dog has problems, and its not safe for the child to be around him,

Dizzy - someone who says Fish and Chip supper must mean they are from Scotland. True or False ?? ;-)

nearly!!!!!

I live in Scotland but am not scottish and thought fish and chip supper (amongst other things) very amusing when I heard it for the first time :D

isnt it strange how different areas have different words,as we all meet up at shows it can be confusing, id never ever heard mythered-excuse spelling, i think it means all bothered. from derbyish, then i said skitted to someone from birmingham, theyd never heard of that!!peas pudding ,isnt one many have heard of -its a case of each to there own i suppose
helen how are things going with you, can you answer the questions i asked, what was the pups dam like, the litter mates, and at what age did you take the pup,

Things have been going fine since last week. Toby has been very well behaved, although Annie is only allowed to touch him if I am sat right next to him and I don't think I can continue feeling so anxious about him near her. However, as advised, I have an appt with the vet on Monday to check that everything is ok with him and am feeling extremely guilty because I'm hoping that he will find something wrong with him. My behaviourist should also be back from her trip tomorrow. I need to feel that I have done everything possible by Toby before I let him go.

I don't think that we will be able to keep Toby, my first priority is Annie - although she loves him so terribly much I know it will break her heart to lose him, but we can always get another pup.

Regarding Toby's background, his mum was a sweet and gentle darling - his breeder was a friend of a friend, but when the pups were a couple of weeks old, she (the breeder) was taken into hospital, so the pups were looked in on daily by her neighbour - they possibly didn't have as much contact with people as they should have when they were very little. The four pups that we saw all seemed to be happy - none of them appeared to be overly boistrous or nasty. We chose Toby because he was the only male and brought him home at nine weeks. I have spoken to our breeder since, and she says that the other pups are all getting along fine. She is however, very poorly and has had to rehome her dogs and will be unable to take back Toby as she had offered to do at an earlier point in time.

Thank you again to all of you for your comments and thoughts through this most difficult time.

Well you have a very difficult decision ahead of you, but you are doing all the right things IMHO - it must be particularly difficult if Toby is now being very well behaved!!! I am sure we are all thinking of you Helen.

lindsay

I have been wondering about you and what decision you finally made on the future of your dog. I feel so much for you, it's such a nightmare situation to be in. However, at the end of the day you have to put your daughter first, that message seems to have come across loud and clear from most of the postings. I do hope you are enjoying Christmas despite your doggy dilemma.
Cathy.

Fish and chip suppers and regional dialect now being discussed here :)

helen, what is the outcome of your pup, what have you decided to do about it, and how have things been