Hi,
I posted a few days ago about Dylan's mad 5 minutes and that he lunges at me and mouths/bites my arm. Today his mad 5 minutes lasted 20 minutes and he was constantly mouthing me. He grabs my sleeves (usually, but sometimes my hand/leg/foot/back/etc) and he growls, whilst trying to shake me like a rag doll. I have read some previous threads on the board. I have tried saying No firmly, yelping (which seems to work on my hands but nothing else), gently holding his muzzle closed, ignoring him, distracting him with a toy, etc.
Is it normal for him to growl whilst mouthing me? One of the old posts said mouthing was okay unless the pup was growling. It seems as though he is just playing, but he goes mad for this short period of time. Oh, one more thing, he usually tries to mount my arm whilst he has my sleeve in his mouth. I thought he would start this when he was a teenager, not a baby :D
I'm fairly sure this is normal puppy behaviour, but how can I teach him that I am not a rag doll :) The rest of the time he is a gorgeous sweet, well-behaved puppy.

Thanks,
Sarah

Sarah - mouthing is normal - this does not mean it's OK. Any attempt by a puppy to mouth or put his teeth on you should be dealt with and not accepted. If the normal yelping and "no" isn't working, then I found that putting the puppy out of your company, shut in the kitchen for example, just for a few minutes works well. Don't look the puppy in the eye, look above it's head, scoop him up while saying "no - bad dog" and put him in the kitchen. After a few minutes, let him back out. If he does it again, repeat the process. He'll soon learn that it's the mouthing/biting that's getting him taken away from you and that you are the one in control. He wants to be with you, so he will learn to stop.

hth

Pam n the boys

Hi Pam, Just curious why you told the poster to not look the puppy in the eye, to look above the head. I have never heard this before and would like to know for my sake. Precious still trys to mouth. Thanks a bunch. Shirl :D

Shirl - Looking directly in the eye can be seen as a challenge - encouraging a battle so to speak. Looking over the head shows you are the leader and above them, not threatened by them and reinforces your position as top dog. If you watch how dogs behave in packs - the top dog always looks away from the others.:D

hth

Pam n the boys

Thank you so much Pam. Now I understand why Precious trys to challenge me when I stare at her. Bless your heart. You have cleared things up for me!! I'm going to try this starting today. Shirl :D

I did notice very quickly that Dylan would settle in his crate much quicker if I didn't look at him. I guess this is the same thing.
Sarah

Okay, we've just had another mad session. I put him in the kitchen, which didn't seem to be the punishment I was hoping for :) He was quite happy to investigate for a few minutes without me. So the next time I put him in the porch which is obviously quite restricted in terms of space. After a few moments, he was let out and was okay.
I then introduced him to the vacuum cleaner, which seems to have taken his mind off mouthing :D

Thanks Pam & Jeangenie for your replies.

Sarah

You're quite right, this is normal puppy behaviour! But that doesn't mean it's desirable. Puppies in a litter play just like this with each other, grabbing, growling, shaking - until one of them gets hurt, gives a loud squeal and goes off in a huff. It's important that the squeal is loud enough to startle the pup so that he pauses in what he's doing. Then you can give him his tugger-toy (ragger, old sock, old tea-towel or whatever) and start an exciting game with that. Even adult dogs will growl when playing these games - it's a completely different sound to an aggressive growl.

Small pups also mount each other (from about 5 weeks of age) but it's not sexually motivated at this age. When he does it, say a firm "NO" and put him in his bed.

With consistency he will learn, but it all takes time - it takes them a long time to learn another language! :)

Sarah,Last night I almost posted on this forum puppy free to home any home. Naughty Sydney was having a mad 2 hours (always happens when you want to watch telli). Hubby (on nights who has no patience at present) would have if he new the password.

He keep jumping up on the couch first front feet then actually bounding up (must admit I was a bit proud of him as he's a growing boy and couldnt jump up a week ago), not that he was praised or even smiled at when he was up, I just push/placed him off the couch saying OFF! as usual. Sydneys response.. Staring at me and barking. Grabbing his mouth doesnt work as he thinks its a game and tries to grab my hand even more, when he was pestering hubby grabbed him by the scruff and said NO! He then tried to bite hubby. That was it into the kitchen for a quiet time (HAH! quiet my ar*e) scratch scratch, whine whine, woof woof.. urrrgh and he's only 14 weeks old.

I do try to ignore him when he is being naughty but he is a persistant pup. I must admit I do sometimes look at him when he is barking so I guess I am challenging him. Tonight no looking, no bad behaviour (fingers crossed).

Hope you sort out your monster as well. Best of luck.

Hi I have a 12 week Golden who has his mad times but because of the older Golden she fimly puts him in
his place when he gets too rough.IF he mouths her too hard she nips him back and he does'nt attempt it agaain.
Whereas when I Amber I had to teach her she could not mouth I would gently shake
the scruff of her neck and she soon learn't not to do it.Amber does this with Gundo
if he bites her neck or ears then he stops and curls up with her and realises it
hurts.

Briony :-)

So do you think I should be giving him a quick nip, then? :D :D

Sarah

I notice the attemptsto stop him are based on positive training methods, that is the reason why he bites you.
Aggresion in postive trained dogs is common if the dog is a little inclined that way.
If you contiue with rewarding him for his aggression ((offering toys is not a distarction it is a reward for his behaviour) it increases it, you show your approval by offering rewards.
If you continue you will then find yourself paying a stream of behaviourists from behavourist organisations such as APDT who will encourage you to continue rewarding him for this behaviour, which is and will continue to get progressivly worse, thereby ensureing themselves of an income for life from you.
If someone is slashing the tyres of your car outside your house you don't offer them a cup of coffee in exchange for them stopping! If you did they would simply come back and start again every time they wanted a free coffee.
Aggression in positive trained dogs is widespread and common, look through other posts to confirm that.

Yapyap
So what do you suggest?
Steph

I would not wast my time suggesting anything on this site because posts on sucsesses get locked or deleted, I simply pass my observations in the interests of safety.

Yapyap this is a puppy, whether you agree or not, all pups act this way to a greater or lesser degree and have been doing so since time immemoriam. Lots of people including myself use these or similar/varyiing methods as you know, and we don't have aggressive dogs :rolleyes:

Interestingly lots of us manage to stop puppies behaving in this way without the use of an electric collar!

You are proving you have no understanding of how to train dogs in this particular way, because no, offering a toy isn't a reward, it IS a distraction done the right way. It would be nice if you would stick to your drive stimulation techniques and electric collars (not that they are such a great mustery) because these you know about, and let others have the chance to share their knowledge and their success. I have a dog who responded only to putting out/redirection onto toys etc, and she doesnt' bite, isn't aggressive and loves/adores people. So where does that leave your "knowledge"? Makes your previous statements look a little foolish really.

Most people love attending their classes too, and enjoy training for the Kennel Club Good Citizen's Awards/agility/obedience etc amongst others, so they are spending their money how they choose.

You only take on dogs and owners you can succeed with, from what you have said. You dont seem able to train all breeds and help all types of owners.

At least have some respect for puppy owners and stop trying to peddle your wares - whoops i keep forgetting, that is Jojo your trainer - keep getting you mixed up.....;)

*yawn*

Lindsay

Lindsey, as you are aware, your recomendation to Banger to see someone called Rogerson ended up with the dog almost being put into rescue as a result of the 'services' given for one year.(not least the dog bit Bangers father)
In objective veiw of the consequences of your advice do you think it might now be pertinant for you to consider the option of withdrawining completly from giveing such dangerous or any advice which, based entirley on the consequences, can only be described as recklessly incompetant and irresponsible.

Jojo, i am not at all ashamed of recommending this lady: do a search onhere and you will see that tim said Max was getting MUCH improved after seeing her. Didn't last of course - but probably becausE of Tim at a guess. But no doubt Tim will say something different now, because to suggest she may have helped just does not appeal to him.

He also only paid £40 not, as he suggests, lots of money.

You have a crusade against various organisations but never have your facts right - Edith Preston, who you much maligned as a member was not even a member, wrong as usual JOjo.

John Rogerson is great and deals with what you would call high drive dogs but of course, you don't have the grace to respect him as another trainer, just badmouth him. YOu have by your own admission never even seen him.

At least on here we all discuss - we dont all agree all of the time but we enjoy learnig from eachother. YOu once called this an APDT site - nothing could be further from the truth - many people on here train in different ways, but you said we should all take responsibilty for Max!

I've trained all sorts of dogs this 'positive training' way - and I've never had an aggressive one!

But then I'm not an aggressive person, either.

I have to agree with Yapyap. We have tried positive methods for over two years with Max and have seen Max get more aggressive. I suggest that Lindsay has never seen a High Drive dog in her life. We had JoJo up here two days ago and it took him 20 minutes to get near Max without being attacked. This is what positive methods have done for Max, including Carrie Evans and Celia Bourne behaviourists.

Giving a reward to a dog for being aggressive is totally the wrong way to go about it, he needs a correction NOT a reward. Even our trainer at our council classes said to us Max needed a firm hand.

I cannot believe that such dangerous advice is being given out on this board. I do not condone the use of electric collars on puppys younger than 6 months, if we had been teaching Max using corrections from an early age we would not be in the state we are now. Don't fall in to the trap we fell into. Positive training is a new concept and has only been round a few years, if you look back a decade or so, when Barbara Woodhouse was all the rage thats how training was done in those days. We have been training dogs for many years and corrections have been around for many centuries, if it worked then and is good enough for an Alpha dog to discipline a juvenille in the wild pack its still good enough now to correct this puppies behaviour!

Edit: I think its about time there is some sort of government regulation of these training bodies such as APBC, APDT and the Kennel Club as anyone can set themselves up as a behaviourist and simple dish out advice which worked with their dogs without any real understanding of the dog or his drives.

BAnger, at the end of the day, Max's problem was you. You described all sorts of things in the way you lived with Max that confused the dog, now you see fit to blame everyone but yourself.

Jojo/yapyap takes the credit for Max's good behaviour, but Max had already been introduced to the E collar on his residentaial training course. E collars work with reward (which is lack of punishment in most cases) and punishment which is strong discomfort or pain - of course Max had no pain as he knew the electric collar from before. He is bright and knows what is what.

As for the high drive stuff Tim, you know only what you have learnt over a short period of time,most of usehave been working with drives for ages. Have you onlyjust discovered them?

I amongst others recommended Celia who has a good record - sorry if you disagree but there it is. She has helped lots of people but that doesn't matter to you - OK thats your perspective.

You did NOT tryu positive methods for 2 years - what rubbish! YOu tried all sorts of methods including holding the dog mouth shut for 15 minutes and then wonderedwhy he still tried to grab your sleeve

Yes of course Max may need a firm hand, many dogs do, but positive doesn'tmean permissive: you think it means chucking treats all day - um no. But that is your understanding.

RE the whole alpha dog thing Tim, read up on thelatest scientific studies in the Coppinger's book.

I was a great fan of Barbara Woodhouse and trained many dogs with her ways includign the check chain. I just prefer the way I train now.

I'm sorry Tim, but you allowed Yap yap to tell untruths about me on other sites, how can I or anyone believe you on other matters? I was supportive and tried to help, not with aggression advice but general chat and support, and you now show yourself in your true colours.

Of coures Max wouldnt' let Yapyap near him. He has a brain LOL :rolleyes:

To be honest i'm not very interested in anything you have to say.

I'm not getting into a slanging match with you Lindsay you have never met my dog and I resent the fact that you say I have not tried positive methods for 2½ years. I find it very offensive that you are trying to attack me and rubbish any ideas I have, what sort of behaviour is this ?

I have no control over anyone who posts on this or any other board and refute any statement that I can control this, this is ridiculous !

As for the drive information, YES I HAVE NEVER BEEN TAUGHT ABOUT DRIVES BY ANY OF THE BEHAVIOURISTS I HAVE SEEN and have only recently began to understand the drives in my dog, I dont think behaviourists understand drives at all!

Edit: How can the moderators of this board all such personal attacks to be proliferated on me !

Tim, you have no control over JOjo but you can have the decency to clarify what is truth and what is fabrication.

YOu have tried a residential training with electric collar, electric anti bark collar and Max is how old? Did you say you have tried positive methods for 2 and a halfyears? Max is how old? is'nst he 2 and a half? What is not making sense here?
Sorry if i have his age wrong

i agree let's not get into a slanging match, but I will stand up for myself if people rubbish me.

Lindsay

I have clarified things on occaision as you well know because you thanked me for doing so !

I did not attend the residential training which is what I am addressing now, I am conducting Max's training !

But it doesn't change the fact that these APBC/APDT people have dished out advice which hasn't helped at all and possible got me in the state I am now with only the last few weeks we have had control of Max - the facts speak for themselves, with Max positive methods have made him worse !

You did indeed clarify things once and i did thank you (although i had to ask yuo to do it) but unfortunately your trainer saw fit to put you in an awkward position (presumably) and continue the tirade later and on other threads that you contributed to. You could have put the truth forward but chose not to.

It's not a problem at the end of the day, just sad.

Re the residential training, my point was that it was not "positive" which was what you seemed to be saying.

Let's let the matter rest anyway, we are hardly going to agree or find much commn ground now, and the original thread was taken over.

Lets just agree to disagree.

Lindsay

"Yes of course Max may need a firm hand, many dogs do, but positive doesn'tmean permissive: you think it means chucking treats all day - um no. But that is your understanding. "

Thats what our first Behaviourist did when Max was six months and he went for her because she stopped throwing treats on the floor !

Um,
I would hardly call a puppy play biting and mouthing 'aggression'? an surely that is what this thread is about isnt it?

Banger, i can only suggest that you have both a very mixed up dog, presumably due in part to his breeding, which would say that perhaps the next time you buy a dog, you research its pedigree a bit more, and that you were using postive training methods in the wrong way.
And, as i am sure we all know, ANY training method carried out incompetantly will not result in a well trained dog!

Going back to what this thread is about, yes, play biting and mouthing and also mounting is totally normal. The biting/mouthing is NOT aggression, and the mounting is NOT any attempt at 'dominance' and if anyone suggests it is, IGNORE THEM!

If you can get your pup to stop mouthing, and then when he has stopped, give him a toy which he CAN bite, then that is good. I used the squealing, and also some ignoring to stop Dill biting me, and that worked very very quickly. Perseverance and kind, fun training methods WILL work, given time and understanding.

Good luck with your pup.

Em

I apologise to the board/poster for getting involved with the other debate re. Max and off the thread.

Agree too that puppy biting is certainly not aggression :) and that any method used in the wrong way will not result in good behaviour.
The biting is asmuch about the pup learning bite inhibition as anything, but very often regardless of method they will stop when adult teeth come through :)

Lindsay

Sarah,

Why don't you gve your breeder a quick ring.I'm sure she would love an update
on him, and also she may well be the one that offers the best advice,give it a go

Otherwise listen to what everyone has to say and pick out the bits which you think
would be the most helpful.Are you planning on showing him?
Kulawand dogs are lovely.

Regards Briony :-)