Hi
Please advise with this dilemma- I know there are a lot of posts on neutering but I would really appreciate help with this specific case. Very sorry for length.

1. My 11 month old corgi is a very friendly dog who will play with anything and anyone that shows a mutual interest in playing. He knows most of the dogs we meet on our walks or at the dogsitter's [he goes twice a week], and which ones won't play and once they reject him he is ok about it. If we meet strange dogs he is equally friendly but I stay close and assess quickly whether to keep him away from the dog. His recall from other dogs has gone from zero to about 70% and is getting better all the time - I intervene before he tries to run off with other dogs.

2. He has never been aggressive to any animal or human except one case when an entire male Goldie pinned him to the ground aggressively and he got snarly. I've learnt to recognise and stay away from the snappy dogs. He is bomb proof with all kids regardless of the fingers they stick all over him.

3. When in the house with us he is very calm and affectionate and barks and growls only at noises usually during his more alert periods ie. not for attention. If we have visitors he is an angel and happily sits with us without demanding attention.

4. He marks quite a lot when off the lead and sniffs at the plants - usually following me at a distance of about 30 metres, sometimes right next to me, sometimes a bit further. If I keep walking he runs quickly to catch up and we never lose sight of each other.

5. I have never seen him mount anything be it a leg or another dog. My breeder also said that his Dad was not particularly sexual. He spends minimal time licking his bits these days.

6. He loves the female vets because they fuss him. Last time we went one of the unfriendly male vets didn't say hello or look at him, simply grabbed him, pinned him down and started feeling his anal glands and tail. I had to hold him and he growled the whole time but would stop intermittently when I told him "no". That vet told me : "you have to get him castrated".

7. We spent 4 months at training classes with only 4 or 5 dogs then had to have a break of 3 months when they changed the time and we couldn't make it. We practised stays, waits etc at home and in the park and he was fine. Last night we went to a different class - intermediate - and there were 12 dogs in the class in a typical small church hall.

Well it was like someone had swapped my dog. Our old trainer used to let the dogs off lead for 5 mins before the class and they would get the hello's out of the way and then all of them get on with work.

The trainer did not let the dogs off here [probably too many] and spent 40 minutes of the 1 hour class speaking rather than having us do the exercises. While the other dogs sat still or just whined or wriggled a bit I spent the whole class trying to stop mine getting to the other dogs. He was ok when we were doing walks, sits but NOT stays and when the lady was speaking he was a nightmare - everyone hated me.

I explained to the trainer that he liked to play with dogs but would usually settle down. She said of course he would get better but at that point we saw him stick his nose right up a female border collie's bum (between the legs) - she then said "there is your problem he is sex obsessed, you need to have him castrated, you will always have a recall problem if you do not castrate him". I have no idea whether the BC was about to go on heat or whether there was another dog in the class who may have been - a fair number had already been neutered but she said this was irrelevant, it would not stop his obsession. All I know is that I'd never seen him approach a female like this - only "air" bum and willy sniffing.

I am very unsure about this because the situation in a class of 12 dogs makes it very hard to know whether his behaviour was just due to massive over-excitement after a break from training. He has a sunny temperament, nice energy levels which match mine and no evident breed faults. I don't know whether there is a way I can cure his dog enthusiasm with behaviour training or am I being unfair to the dog in not neutering him. I thought I was lucky not to have a "mounter" and his bum sniffing was at normal levels for a male adolescent dog. However the trainer said that recall was the issue here, he was likely to be bitten badly by a bitch if he continued to pester them like he had done the BC and he would also be more likely to get prostate cancer etc [NB. I have heard the arguments on this already].

Would be grateful for any help please.
Cissy

To be honest Cissy, by the sound of it you have a nice, normal dog - and nothing you have said makes me think he should be castrated!

That male vet is an idiot - any dog, castrated or otherwise, will object to being man-handled without a 'by-your-leave'. Does that vet usually work with large animals? I made the mistake of seeing one like that once, who treated my bitch as if she were a cow. I refused to deal with him again - he even had a bad reputation with the RSPCA inspector.

Dogs , by which I mean males and females, sniff each other's bits. It's what they do. My spayed bitches sniff bits. As you say, that bitch could have been coming in season/coming out of season/have a urine infection/have sat on something smelly!

Are there other training classes near you? It sounds as if that new one is most unsatisfactory.

Hope this helps. :)

I would agree wholeheartedly, there seems no reason to castrate him.. He will probably be at his most easily sexually aroused until he hits about 18 months to two, so if he isn't too bad now, he should be prfectly OK once puberty has finished.

Aslo Corgis can be very good doers, and get portly easily, and many neutered dogs tend to putting on weight, as their appetites remain the same, but requirements for food diminish, and with their dhape, excess weight is a real no, no!

thank you both so much - I don't really know why but I was feeling quite upset about this, probably because he is my little boy and I have spent so much effort being socially responsible in the hope we could keep him entire. All my past animals have been good tempered and entire with no problems.

I am avoiding that vet next time we go in - not sure about his animal background but probably has been cats/dogs given we are in suburban area.
We have 6 more weeks of training in this class as we had to pay up front - am hoping that the number of dogs and all the chat drops off. After that I'm going to go back to the old trainer and fit in with his times as best I can - he is a bit gruff but we got so much done.
Re fat Corgis - I am in total agreement and am very careful about his food and exercise. Despite the vet's faults he did say he was a lucky dog as his back legs were strong and muscly evidencing good levels of exercise.
thanks again, as ever you have been so helpful
cissy

He sounds lovely, Cissy, and it seems like you're doing a great job. Have faith in your judgement! :)

I agree you should have faith in your judgement, he does seem very normal and dogs will always want to sniff to a certain extent, that is normal.

I've been to lots of training classes where dogs have been barky or "goofy" and have settled after a while, sometimes it takes 2 weeks sometimes longer, but castrating probably wont' make much if any difference to that :)

Possibly if the trainer just saw him for the first time she may have felt he was a bit OTT with the BC and assumed he was always like that....?

We have a lot of "talk" in some of our other classes, but I always feel classes are to teach the owner, and they should ideally then go home and practice in between classes :) but it does depend a lot - i mean you don't want to stand around if it is, for example, an agility class as that defeats the object a bit ! :) and also owners understandably have different expectations and preferences.

Main thing is that you both enjoy them :)

thanks Lindsay - I agree he will be ok soon as he proved he could settle quickly in his previous classes. It's so embarassing when no one believes that your dog is "nice, no, really he is!!" and "no, he's not a sex pest!!, really!!"
My husband just remembered that he spoke to the trainer on the phone before we booked the course and she expressly stated she is a strong advocate of neutering - so now I don't feel too bad.
cissy

pity her poor husband then if she believes in neutering that strongly :)

Cissy
The least said about that male vet the better - or admin will be editing me for bad language!!!
I am shocked at how he handled your boy - perhaps he should be pinned down and have his bits manhandled and see how he likes it!

My views on neutering posted at the end of this thread but basically in my view don't do it

Hello Cissy,

I totally agree with the others, there is no need to rush in and get him neutered. Every time you say he has done something where someone has said to get him neutered, he is behaving like a normal dog.

The male vet (as someone rightly said) is an idiot and obviously has no understanding of animal behaviour and gaining their trust....ignore him!!!

I would also change your dog trainer, in my classes I spend just 10 minutes (at the most) at the end of every class to sort out problems and all the rest of the time, dogs are training or socialising. Is your trainer an APDT trainer, it might be worth finding classes run by one. If you want any information on one in your area, please mail me direct (click on my name to get the address).

Just be patient and have fun with him, he sounds like a normal teenage boy!! :D

manda
X

Have just PTS a dog that suffered all his life from being castrated, you will not be suprised when I say don't do it, he may be OK but you don't know that, and you will achieve nothing by castrating him. Ignore the prostrate thing, prostrate cancer is very rare in dogs.

Hmmmmm, does that mean your male is better left not Fixed. Just wondering (Has nothing to do with your paticular doggie) But some of the others seem against nuetering, I don't understand.
Rudy and Mum

Hi Rudy and Mum,
Ever heard the saying "if it ain't broke, don't 'fix' it"? ;)

Heh. I suppose so. We have just decided to fix our slightly oversexed male terv pup, he is six months.

Hi Rudy's mum
This is my opinion - I do not agree with neutering male dogs just as a matter of course which so many so called experts seem to push far too much.
A male dog can be taught not to hump everything in sight rather than have it neutered which is often a reason people give for neutering.
A neutered dog can be pestered by entire male dogs as the dogs sometimes are not too sure what they are meeting.
Training & proper socializtion can be used to control any possible aggression.
Your breed is a full coated breed - not sure as no experience with that sort of coat but can neutering alter their coats?
Perhaps someone in your breed might be able to advise.

Over a period of 20 years I have had up to 7 dogs living together, different mixes of sexes, bitches always spayed.
At one time 4 full males, 1 neutered male (done before he came to me) & 2 bitches.
Currently 3 full males, 2 neutered males (2nd one again done before I got him) & 1 bitch.
In my experience it has always been the neutered males that actually cause any problems in the pack, usually not intentionally but because they were done, the full males let them get away with too much and don't teach them their proper place in the pack.

As I said at the beginning all above is my opinion

Can I ask what are your reasons for neutering your boy?
Steph

On the first class she told you that you would never get a good recall because your dog isn't castrated???
Now there's a trainer with faith in her abilities!?!
Quite frankly, if she can't be bothered to get to know the dog before she uses surgery as a subsitute for training, then she's not worth listening to.

I agree that you should find another trainer, why don't you tell your current one a little white lie and say you can't make the times any more, you may get a partial refund? Worth a try. I would say that if your dog has just gone into a strange environment, with 12 strange dogs, he's bound to be more aroused (I don't mean sexually!) so would spend more time investigating the other dogs.
You've basically got two people who know nothing about your dog, giving you advice (well more like instructions!) based on a snap shot of your dogs character.

The only one who can make the decision is you, and by the sounds of the vet incident, having the op might actually make that worse because the lack of testosterone would lower his confidence and make him much more frightened.

Neutering my dog, just because it was the 'done' thing was the worst mistake I've ever made, I started with a fairly nervous dog, and now he's so much worse. It's nothing we can't handle with management, common sense, a bit of training and a whole bag of patience, but it's something that we might not have had to deal with if we'd thought more about our decision the way you are.

Stick to your guns, and do what you feel is right.

Jo

p.s. What about Tardak that mimics the effect of castration? Is that an option?

We are nuetering my boy so that he does not "accidentally" mate to a bitch. We are careful, but sometimes things can get out of your hands. He is a long coat yes, and I don't think that nuetering will alter it at all. We are not sure yet, but are leaning towards the nueter him choice.
Rudy and Mum
Edited to add: What is Tardak??

Im Belgians neutering does not change the coat as dramatically as in some breeds, but it will change it.

As your boy is so young, he will never develop that lovely full mane that male BSDs have. My freind had her male done at 3 years, and he lost some of his mane. The coat will also get a bit less waterproof and softer, and the undercoat will get woolier, and the whole coat may be slightly harder to groom.

If you have him sone at this young age, he will also not reach his full potential in bone growth, and will not develop the muscle that a male does as it matures.

Hi, Rudy's Mum,
I'm curious to know why you think he's slightly oversexed at that age?
:)

We have very experienced friends that have just had a six-month old neutered. They have a ten dog household and several entire females. The pup was making himself very ill (not eating and fretting) and humped anything in sight.

Daisy

Oh I am so sorry Jackie that you have lost your old boy :(

Thanks Barbara, he was the only one I have ever castrated and I would never ever do it again unless it was for a medical problem. At the time of his death it was costing me £80 a month for medication most of which was caused by his being castrated, and I still find it hard to accept what I did to him.

Young dogs do get oversexed, like young boys, but it passes in most dogs once they grow up, do not castrate your dog because he is going through adolesence.

If you have a bitch in the same house but can seperate whilst the bitch is in season then Tardac will help to keep things sane.

Do not consider castrating your dog just because you might meet an inseason bitch whilst on you walk, most bitch owners will deal with that themselves and it is not your responsibility, if you keep your dog in a well fenced garden then castration for this reason should not be undertaken.

HI Jackie --You've just answered my question for me :rolleyes:-murphy is very playfull especially around the ladies ,and can be intimidating to smaller dogs but I think I'll stick with it a while longer

thanks everyone for reassurance and sorry Jackie for your doggie - my boy is lucky I have my stubborn mule moments [goes with choice of dog] so he is safe from that vet, Tardak and any scalpels. :)
Cissy [and Lascaux who no doubt will proudly parade his bits in his next class]

Jackie
Sorry to hear about your boy
If you are able to say, what sort of problems did you have with him - I'm curious as I have two dogs that were neutered before they came to me so just wondering if there is anything for which I should keeping my eyes open.
One is 14 and does have cancer, thin as a rake but definitely not ready to go yet, out every day for his walks, still the boss over the younger ones, sees the vet every 3 weeks for a hormone jab which seems to be keeping the tumours at bay
The other one willl be 4 at the end of the month.
Steph

The two main problems were that we had to give him male hormone tablets to replace those that his body could no longer make for itself, and the tables although working on the hormone level and making him life more enjoyable at the same time reduced his immunity. And that lead to all sorts of trouble including recurrent bouts of Demodetic mange. The other problem was with his coat, that because it was so wooly he suffered with skin trouble and it was impossible to groom him properly, that lead to recurrent skin infection and umpteen courses of antibiotics. There were for time to time other problems but the two I have listed were the most troublesome.

Jackie
Thanks for the info - perhaps I've been lucky with my boy Chester as he is short coated and the jabs he has doesn't seem to have reduce his immune system
Steph

"most bitch owners will deal with that themselves and it is not your responsibility" this attitude led to me reluctantly having my bitch spayed (a much more serious operation) after risking serious injury seeing off a large and aggresive dog whose owner (like many other entire dog owners) didn't think was in their responsibility to prevent him mating. By all means keep you dog entire if you wish but I believe you will always have equal responsibility in preventing an unwanted mating. Bitches are entitled to some excercise.