what is the benifit of having your dog registered with the kennel club as i do
no intend to show just love and care for a PET. i do not intend breeding either
(ille leave that to those in the know). thanks for your help

Hi guest
Having a puppy which is Kc registered is important for the following reasons-
1. you know the puppy you are getting is a pure bred
2. most reputable breeders do not breed unregistered litters.
3. kc reg documents for the parent will show if the appropiate health checks for the breed have been done ie eyes ansd hips but you do need to know what tests are appropiate first the kc or a breed club will be able to tell you that.
4. If the puppies are Kc reg it makes sure that the bitch was at least 12 months at the time of mating but most good breeders wait till a bitch is two
5. you will get six weeks free insurance when you transfer the puppy into your name.
6. you will be able to get a certified pedigree for your dog showing his/her family tree

If you only want a pet not a pedigree why not give a home to a rescue dog there are plenty about?
cheers kate

Hi Guest and Kate,
Dont want to play Devils Advocate (and we have previously discussed this ad infintum) but some caring, reputable breeders do sell pups as pets without KC reg. (I know, because we do). We have all health tests done, and all paperwork is given to puppy buyers, inc full pedigrees, copies of parents health checks, insurance, vaccination, worming/flea treatment details, and full puppy care guidelines. What they do not get is KC registration - as we are selling pets only as pets. I know it does not completely stop unscurpulous people who want to breed without letting on to you, but it is one extra obstacle, and does stop export (as most overseas importers definelty want registred pups). Yes, we could endorse, but this means a)we have to have paperwork back in time (and we have not always decided on names and who we are keeping by the time some are ready to go) and b)endorsements can be removed by subsequent purchasers if they can show they did not know the papers were endosrsed at time of purchase.

It shoud be remembered that KC registration is a useful tool, but not a guarantee of quality (or even pedigree) it all depends in information given by the breeder. Puppy buyers must use there common sense - a reputable breeder will always be willing to give you contact details of previous purchasers to contact for references, if you think something is wrong, regardless of KC reg, then walk away. If you see a responsible, knowledgable, breeder who explains why pups are only available without papers use your own judgement and commonsense. Guidelines are good, but hard and fast rules can lead you in the wrong direction.
bye
Gwen

Hi Gwen
I dont want to be rude but you obviously put alot of time and effort into your puppies so why not spend the extra twelve pounds to register them!
The only reason I can see for not registering is that they are not eligable for registration the Kc reg scheme is there to ensure a puppy is what it claims to be I know it isnt 100% and you are quite right to stress Kc doesnt guarentee quality ( some thing I should have done )but if a puppy is pedigree and intitled to KC papers why not get them, surely by not registering them you are adding to the cheap because unregistered market and incouraging people who`s dogs are not as good as your own or even not 100% pure bred to climb on the band wagon.
All the puppies I have bred have been KC registered and I would never consider breeding a unregistered litter.
Our local free ads paper has a advert in at the moment for 3/4 weimeraners priced at two hundred pounds it clearly states they are the right colour and look like a pure bred so if this is the case how do you know your not buying a cross bred if you have no papers?
I would like to also add that most people that breed unregistered pups dont bother with the health checks on this occasion you are obviously the exeption to the rule and your doing everything a good breeder should but personally I wouldnt touch unregistered puppies with a barge pole! the only exemption to that would perhaps be jackrussels or one of the other breeds that are not recognised by the Kennel club
incedentally doesnt your breed club require you to register your puppies?

hello kate
i have finally registered. the breeder actually asked me if i wanted the pup registered, i said no. why because i know the pup is pure breed i
have practicaly gone through the hole process of choosing a stud (paper work checked) mating and then finally avery traumatic birth where the bitch had a ceaser, consequently only one dog servived mine (bradly).
the breeder is subsequently getting up every two hours to check feeding
etc. have i made the right choice? the pup is only 3 days. time to change my mind. i feel in my heart of hearts i would love it no more with kc paperwork. i know its a boxer

If you have the choice to get KC Reg then take it. I bought my lab who is KC Reg as a pet never intended to show or anything. We started training classes when he was a pup and we have kept going and now we have started agility as well and have just entered our first show for which I need the KC reg! :)

Hi Emma,

Please note before I start this, no I don't know your situation or breeder so am NOT implying that this is the case here, just giving my opinion on your question and floating an idea on the general concept without any intention to cast blame :D.

My concern on having this offer would be that as the bitch has only produced a single pup, and maybe the breeder wanted a bitch, that not registering your pup might be leaving options open to breed next time without recrimination and to register, if your breeder comes under KC regs that mean she can't register more than one litter a year - particularly inadvisable after a traumatic birth and a caesar.

I would certainly be wanting the puppy KC registered, you never know why you might want this later - if he really turns out nicely, you might want to show, if he succeeds you might get asked to use him at stud, you might want to get various health checks done officially.

Marina

hi marina
you have made and excellent point, one that has crossed my mind. im paying £550 for the boxer pup (bradly), but the breeder said to kc the price would go up considerably. is this incase i breed from him. i am visiting the pup when it is two weeks old checking papers again. the breeder said he is a fine example of a boxer good markings etc. i don't want the excitment of a new pup cloud my judgement.
emma

Hi Emma,

Do I read that correctly, you're paying £550 for an UNREGISTERED pup!! How much if he's registered? Is this from one of the top Boxer kennels ......... ?

I'm sure Boxer people will respond on average puppy prices, but seems absolutely extortionate to me.

M.

M
YES £550 UNREGISTERED. no mot sold as seen. i will call the breeder later to confirm and see how things are and the price. does anybody know what price is reasonable. would the cost of the pup have a bearing on the surgery at birth. or the fact that i was at the top of the waiting list. Is there any boxer owners out there who could let me know?
youve all given excellent advise thanks
emma

Sorry Emma, think it's time to start looking for another breeder :(

Sure you'll find something lovely, with some assurance to health and quality, plus KC registration - and cheaper!

M.

M
just called the breeder as the seeds of doubt have been sown. £500 registered tail docked (sorry) due claws done and heart tested parents
etc. red with white front socks blak mask with a small white strip down the middle of his noise. breeder said he is registering him because he is an excellent example of his breed. i do trust the breeder his knowledge is excellent and his enthusiasm to breed excellent lines, is very encouraging.
Emma
p.s my mind is nearly at rest.

Now, THAT sounds better :D - hope he's lovely, keep us updated.

M.

Hi there,

I know one or 2 boxer breeders , One of them is a top kennel with at least 6 champions and I think although I would need to double check her dogs are £550 KC registered .

If you like I could ask and give your their details.

Pamela

pamela
that would be great, but the only problem is im from buckinghamshire
(leafy bucks) and most breeders are a fair way up north. is it fair to a pup to have approx 3hr journey home with numerous toilet stops for an unvacinated pup.
emma

Hi there,

the two I know of are down south.

if you like mail me privately and I will give you their e-mail you can even ask an opinion..

Pamela

preidie@yahoo.com

Hi Emma,
All the sites that I can find re pup prices say that a Boxer pup usually costs £300-£500. I'm assuming the top price is for a KC registered, nice quality pup. If you're being asked to pay £550 for an unregistered pup, I think you're being taken for a ride.
Just my opinion.

Ditto JG's view, without extensive research there are certainly KC reg pups advertised on Champdogs site at £500, and although I don't know Boxers, in general they look 'quality' pedigrees. Also, note that certainly some of the sites are quoting heart tested parents, this is a must in a quality Boxer pup.

M.

Heart-tested parents are a must in every Boxer pup :D
My litter that are now nearing 2 yo, were from show stock, the sire of the litter
went on to become a Champion, both were heart-tested clear and bitch was also temperament
tested and graded excellent.
All my litter were KC registered even the white's, whom I endorsed the pedigree's not progeny
not eligible for registration & not for export pedigree.
My coloureds were £500 regardless of sex or markings, my white's were £250.
I made a loss although my bitch did not have to have a ceasarian, but I did not put the price
of my puppies up to cover this, £500 is the average price for a good quality, well reared & bred Boxer pup.
You should not pay £550 for a non registered Boxer pup!!
Just my own opinion :D & I didn't breed my litter to make money!! (you never make money on a well reared litter)
Kind Regards
Kirstine

kristine
thanks for your reply you have put my mind at rest. im paying £500 for a registered docked and due claws. mother and pup are doing fine since there traumatic time on saturday morning. the pup has a large chest so i am informed red with small white socks and a black mask. ironic really because that was my ideal looking boxer , which i though was a bit fussy.
how much deposit should i put down and is this knocked off the final payment?
sorry i have never brought from a breeder .
emma

Some people will ask for 10% deposit, so if £500, would be £50.
Some may ask more, I was more than happy with £50 deposit.
Some breeders stress that deposits aren't refundable, I wasn't that worried.
As I had good feelings about all my puppy people, which turned out to be correct.
The deposit paid is normally taken off the purchase price.
Also you should be given receipt for this, and if pup is to be KC registered make sure
the breeder writes this on the receipt.
I delivered all the pups (bar one) to their new homes (no I did not charge for delivery)
after having all the prospective 'parents' viewing their new baby in my home.
They visited them as many times as they liked whilst the pups were still with me.
When I delivered the pup I stayed with them for a while talking to their new owners
my pups came with puppy pack, diet sheets (both complete diet and meat & biscuit depending
which the new owners were going to feed), worming certificate, some food, small piece of familiar smelling vet bed
(dam and other siblings scent on it), and an assurance that I was there for them if ever they
needed me, also a puppy contract listing KC registered name, their tattoo number, if there were
endorsements on the KC papers pointing out why etc, leaflets on wormers/pet passports/innoculations etc etc.
I wanted my pups to have the best start possible I felt I owed it to my pups to make sure everything was A OK
before letting them out of my ownership (if I'd have felt at all unhappy, my pups would have stayed with me!!)
Yes breeders tend to know of good breeders and indifferent breeders :D
Make sure that both your pups parents are heart-tested clear, they should grade either 0 or 1, 0 is the best score.
The breeder should be able to show you at least the mothers certificate when you go to view the pup.
I had all the mother's certificates available to show the prospective 'parents'.
If you want to show sometimes the 'plain faced' or solid black masks are not the ideal markings for the showring
as some like the symmetrical blaze (my 'pup' has a 'wonky' one sided blaze), but if you just want a companion
markings aren't any problem :D
Kind Regards
Kirstine

kristine
thank you so much for your advice it has been very reassuring to interact with someone who themselves breed boxers. thank you, for taking time out to answer what probably seem like obvious questions.
emma

kristine,
are boxer breeders aware of othe boxer breeders ie reputable and who is not?
emma

The breed club secretaries will know most breeders reputations, and especially any particular rogues. Obviously every breeder has to breed their first litter, but if the dams name is given then they will usually know if it is one from known lines.

kristine
i will be putting a deposit down when the boxer pup is two weeks old will his markings be the same? how big should he be (he was around 12oz at birth). sorry to keep hasle but i would like to make an informed purchase. due to the fact theres only one i have nothing to compare him to
emma

Dear Emma,
Some white markings do diminish as the pups get older,
you can normally tell when the white markings will go, or get smaller.
My youngster has a wonky blaze which when she was younger did extend
slightly over the other side of her muzzle, now all you see that side is highlights
of white but on the whole looks pretty much black.
Bit difficult to explain, but,
Normally if you can see coloured hair pigmentation under the white, it means that the
white will recede.... But you will never see an increase in the white markings of what
they already have :)
All pups vary with weights, if he's a singleton he may be heavier than pups from a litter
of say 6 pups of the same age. Just make sure that the pup has been wormed before you
get him, and that you get a worming certificate as depending on what worming preperation is
used the number of wormings is different (the two most common puppy wormers breeders use are
Drontal and Panacur)

Hi Emma there is little I can say that hasnt already been said but I would seriously consider having the puppy registered at least then you are keeping your options open you never know you might suddenly get the showing bug in a few years time,I had never shown or ever wanted to show up until last year when I went along with a friend to a few of her breed shows now ive just joined a ring craft class and im loving it! my point being if you had asked me last year if I was wanting to show I would have said no way it not my thing!
good luck what ever you decide

Hi Kate, I didnt say we dont register, I said we dont pass the registrations on with the pet pups. I know this is not a popular stance on this board, but it works for us, and for a few other responsible breeders we know. If we sell a pup as a pet, it is just that, a pet. Not a cheap option for just 1 or 2 litters, or for a novice to get into the ring with an OK but not excellent specimen. We take great care that all our pups go to the best possible homes, be it either pet or show. We are truthful with our buyers, and expect the same from them.

All too many puppy enquiries go something like " Hi, I am interested in buying a puppy" "Are you looking for a pet or to show" "Oh just a pet, we just want one to love" The conditions are explained, and the next question often is "Oh but I might just want to take the one litter/ my sister might want to use him at stud" In our view this is not just a pet. Our breed has one major Heriditary condition, and several less well known or minor ones. We put much time and effor into breeding healthy pups with as little chance as possbile of carrying any of these traits, we feel our method is offputting for those who would be less careful in there breeding practices. If you can buy one of our pups without papers for a certain price, or someone elses with papers for the same, please go buy the other persons if you are not 100% certain that youu really, really only want to have a dog to love and pet!

I first got invovlved in this conversation on the board last year when a person had been put off buying a cocker pup from a reputable breeder by a supposed concerned 3rd party, they had been offered the pup as a pet, without registration, as were told only a neffarious person would sell this way. The board came out 100% behind this view. I had a little knowledge of the "3rd Party", and there advice was not quite so well meaning as it seemed. The people cancelled the booking for the first, well bred, well reared pup from health checked parents (without KC reg) and were talked into a n older dog (about 12 months) from the concerned people - it had to be returned within a few weeks, totally unsuitable for family life, had already gone back to the breeder as being terpremantly unsuitable for showing, and they palmed it off onto the novice pet owner with disastrous results. So the poor little dog was passed on again,and the original people were still searching for a puppy. It turned out that the orignal breeder would have been willing to give endorsed reg. anyway, had they been asked.

Our dogs are so well know that it would be difficult for us (even if we wanted to) to pass them off as something they are not:) and the KC reg only quarantees that the pups are registered as what the breeder says they are. If and when we have DNA identification on thepaperwork we may reconsider our position, especially if the KC were to reconsider their remova of endorsement procedure. Unfortunatly, their hands are tied because of restrictive trade practices etc.

We are not infallible, sometimes a pup we have sold as a pet turns out looking great, but not often. This means we may have lost out on a potential show prospect. No one suffers but us. So we sell pets to pet homes and "hopefully" show prospects to people wanting to show. So the occasional person wanting a show pup may have to wait a little longer.
People buying our pups know they are not buying a crossbreed becasue they get to see the Mum (and in a lot of cases the Dad). They get a pedigree from us, which contains all the details they need, and would stand up in a court of law, if they had any suspicions the had indeed been sold a `"Pup";) as well as KC reg.

Sorry if I have answered your questions all in the wrong order - and remember, I am not advocating our method as ideal for everyone, just putting an alternative point of view. We feel that our reputation is easy enough to check out for interested puppy buyers, this is obviously not the case for occassional breeders/non exhibitors etc.
bye
Gwen

Gwen, I think your story gives one of the reasons why if you have well bred puppies it is best to register them, and pass on the papers. Read your posts when this came up before and I am still at a loss to understand why if you are worried about inferior stock being show or bred from you don't just endorse.

I have to agree, as neither method can prevent the dog being used for breeding, only prevent KC registration. The only way to ensure the pup isn't bred from is to Neuter before sale, as they are encouraging in the USA.

That method I would hate to see, not only for pups development but how often do you here os the pup that comes back to the breeder, or the owner who decides to start showing turning up trumps with a really good one. If already neutered it is lost to the breeds further development.

Hi Gwen
I dont know what you type of dog you breed but with out there papers there certainly never going to get shown! I rester mine incase the ugly duckiling turns into the swan and then the option is is still open.
All our pups go with there kc papers (endorsed) wether to a pet/breeding/working/showing or any other type of home
I stand by what I origanally said that in most cases (agreed not all) there is no resason not to register pups other than to cheat the system ie breed six monthly or that they are not eligable for registration
Lots of our pups go to pet homes but I still hand over the paper work if I didnt trust the people I was selling the pup to with a registered pup from my line they wouldnt get one full stop!
selling pups without there paper work just adds to the cheap and unregistered market even if you do sell them at the same price some one else will follow your lead the under cut you.
Does your breed club require you to register and hand over the KC papers I belive most do!
There is no way I would buy a unregistered pup no matter how well the known the breeder was simply because there are plenty out there who `s breeders have registered them.

edited by kate

Think you might be talking to the wrong person there about show quality dogs, Kate :D

M.

;) :D Marina!!! :D

Kate, I think you might need to edit your post. It is verging on libel

Ok Admin I have edited it!

I remember being told that if you have one show pup in a litter, that's good. If you have 2 show pups in a litter, it's a miracle. If you have 3 in a litter, you're kennel blind!

(But then my breed is one of the more difficult to get everything right ;) )

;) :D Right back atcha JG!!!! :D

M.

Hi Jeangenie
I never ment my post to sound how it did You are quite right most pups dont make show quality but it is difficult to tell at eight weeks old unless they are obviously mismarked- so why denie them the paper work that will enable them to show should they make the grade!

Hi Kate,
No worries, I register all my pups, even the mismarks, and endorse all the registrations till I see how the pups turn out.
:)

kate
i understand what you are saying, if a well meaning person told me my dog was of show standard i would be totally flattered. i remember at the grand old age of eight our school had a pet show and my bearded collie won great feeling .
i know there is a distinct lake of certain breeders in our area for certain breeds so people are travelling to wales etc. it will only take one idiot to encourage another to breed for money (not there will be any).
but they won't have the fisrt clue about temperment heart testing etc.

goodness this website has taught me alot in one day.
emma

[deleted]

Hi Brainless
I did try to stress on my post that this wasnt a personal dig at Gwen she is obviously doing everything ok! and acting to safe guard her name all i ment was that it is hard for people to tell who is genuine like gwen and who isnt. and surley simply endorsing the pedigrees would safe guard your name??

That is what I was trying to say also. Gwen and her partner have a huge reputation in canine circles, mut to the man in the street this won't mean anything, and they won't know the difference. :(

Kao kate. Gwen does register the pups, but keeps the registrations of the pet pups, that is right isn't it Gwen. There is no intention or chance of fiddling the system so to speak to breed extra litters, it is the method she choose to protect her affix appearing behind poor quality stock.

Item 11 of the Kennel Clubs code of ethics which all breeders registering stock are bound by states that all relevant KC paperwork be given when selling or transfering a dog. So witholding them would actually breach these, though I am sure puppy farmers who still use the KC registry and sell to retail outlets are breaching a far more important part.

Hi Brainless,
Yes, thanks for replying for me - yes, as I said before to Kate, we register, just dont supply KC reg with pet pups.
Dont want to get this thread bogged down in what we do and dont do - its all on the board from before if anyone wants to go back to the thread. Just wanted to give the view that there can be reasons for not passing on KC papers, and that contrary to what Kate said in her first response to the poster, KC reg papers are NOT a guarantee of actual pedigree, just of what the breeder has told the KC. It is the best system we have at the moment, but not perfect, so dont put too much faith in it.
bye
Gwen

Hi gwen sorry if my post seemed like a personal dig at you that really wasnt my intention
no purchaser has any guarentee that the parents of a puppy are as said (unless dna testing has been done) they always have to have faith in the breeder

Hi Kate, Well bravo, you got the message - without papers they are NOT going to be shown - part of our reasoning. We carefully evaluate pups for show, and sell them with all the back up and support they need. Of course, pet pups need and get support too, but a different kind.

We only want the best we breed in the ring, and people buying from our kennel respect our judgement, if you want a show pup then that is what you ask for, and if and when we have one, that is what we do our best to supply. We dont have a breed that lends itself to inexperienced breeders, and dont have the time to hand hold all the potential novice "just one litter" breeders. So we choose this method to restrict the breeding. Agree with Brainless, only neutering will stop it completely, and dont think that is at all desirable. Selling either endorsed or without reg doesnt physically stop breeding on.

Wish I had come on line in time to read your original post - what on earth did you say that might be actionable;) And by the way, the breed I am mainly talking about is American Cockers, our main and best known breed - if you show you may have heard of us, the Affix is Afterglow, and we have had the top Gundog for the last 3 years, Top Dog all breed 97, Pup of the Year 96, and a RBIS at Crufts:) This is what I meant by people being able to check out our credentials - pretty well known all over the doggy world!
bye
Gwen

Hi Gwen I guess in your case your affix does speak for its self and you must be well known in the ring! and I can understand why you only want the best to appear in the show ring
cheers kate

It is actually part of my breeds code of ethics that pups are sold with Kennel Club registration and the owners are supplied with at least a 5 generation pedigree.

I think reputable breeders selling pups without papers just muddies the waters, as how are the buyers supposed to know they are reputable and not just giving them a story?

Similar in our Code of Ethics, too. Mismarked pups (patched or non-standard colours) must have their registration endorsed. But their breeding is the same as the others in the litter - no need to be ashamed of them.