The vet I spoke to at 2am Xmas morning (yes doesn't a disaster always happen at the worst possible time?!) said not to worry too much if I couldn't make him sick, but to just give him milk to dilute the tablets. He said that he would probably be feeling a bit sick for a few days but that was all. Thank god I followed my instincts and decided to make him sick anyway.
I then phoned him again on Boxing day to say that Alfie could not keep anything down, although he was quite bright and wanted to eat. The vet said again, that was to be expected and to bring him in the next day if I wasn't happy with him. Worryingly, he also had no recollection of me having phoned him on Xmas morning......... I took him in, only for blood tests to reveal he was in acute renal failure.
When the worst was over and we knew he would survive, I had a meeting with my usual vet at the practice (the first vet I spoke to is the senior partner). He agreed with me that if I hadn't made him sick, he would have died. He also said that all the vets at the practice had a meeting about Alfie's case, since NONE of them had known that Ibuprofen can cause kidney failure or any other problems except gut irritation.
Liz

20 ibuprofen tablets should make anybody/thing throw up: that's way over maximum dose for an adult human. How did he manage to get hold of so many? I thought they weren't sold in quantities over 16.

Hi Jeangenie,
My mum gets them from the US for me, and they come in quantities of about 50, in child-proof (but obviously not dog-proof!)containers. She doesn't get them for me any more though.......
Liz

As the maximum adult human dose is 6 tablets in a 24 hour period, a healthy person would be in trouble with the amount of the drug your dog got hold of.

I imagine it's not so much the drug itself that caused the trouble, but rather the quantity.

I hope you have invested in a new medicine cabinet!
:)

I totall agree with sara ibruprofen can be fatal to dogs, one of the things this drug does is indirectly decrease the blood flow to vital organs, particularly the kidneys and can result in serious kidney damage. Soluble aspirins are a safer option but should only be used under the instructions of the vet. My first rottie had arthritis and many of the pain killers were too slow to work, and i was advised in this instance to give asprin first to relieve the pain, but she was weighed and the correct dose was worked out, but even then I still had to be cautious.

Kiera

I didn't make my post clear - the vet told me to use Ibuprofen... however, I would rather go with advice from here and will get him onto asprin (I don't trust vets!)

He seems better now, I am worried though :(

If you really would prefer to take the advice you read on here then I think you should change your vet. There must be trust between you and your vet, if there is not you will not follow their instructions and that can lead to many serious problems for the dog.

I intend to. He did measure the dosage out for me to give Willis over the phone - so I just don't know what to believe.

J/G - he's ok, a bit stiff and miserable. Am keeping him quiet and haven't given him any painkillers this morning. Thanks for asking :)

I've found the trouble with giving painkillers is that, although they make the dog more comfortable, it just masks the problem. The dog forgets it's got a sore leg/whatever and doesn't rest. And it's usually rest that cures the problem.

It can be very difficult to get the balance right.
:)

I agree with that Jeangenie that is why I would guess the vet wanted an anti-inflamatory given, it would not simple be a pain killer masking the pain but actually causing a change. My dogs have often had these in the short term and I would not hesitate to use them again if appropriate.
Chloe, if you got hold of a British National Formula you would see that every drug carries side effects and yet we continue to use them with good effect, I doubt your vet would prescribe Ibuprofen for an old dog or one with impaired liver function the thing to do if you are concerned about a prescription is to discuss it with him. Unlike your vet I did not leave school with the very highest of qualifications nor have I spend 7 years studying veterinary medicine but I am on the internet so you can trust me on this ;) :D

I'm not sure how to read your message - whether its a dig at me or not.

But I will say that I have often read of vets giving animals inappropriate medicines, including Guiniea Pigs and Penicillin and Dogs that have been treated incorrectly many times. Just because someone has studied medicine at college for 7 years does not make them infalliable - and if there is any doubt then I would rather not take the risk until I have got several other opinions.

I would also say that I did not ask for advice on the treatment in my initial post - more if there are any ideas on whats causing it - i was then advised (strongly) not to give the dog ibuprofen... tell me, wouldn't you think twice?

Has there been any improvement during the day, Chloe?

I'm afraid it was a bit of a dig :) I know we all get anxious about our much loved dogs but I do think we have to be rational about the advice we are offered, you actually said you would rather go with advice from here rather than your vet which, I'm sorry :rolleyes::), I think is a preposterous thing to say. If you have been told on the internet that a drug is likely to kill your dog and you are worried about it the obvious thing is to ask for more information from your vet. I too have often read about vets given inappropriate treatment but I have to say it is always on the internet - a great gathering of interesting anecdotes - what we will not read about is the treatment, after treatment, after treatment that has been entirely satisfactory. Why not ask him how many times he prescibes Ibubrofen in a typical week and how many times has that lead to severe side effects? If you really think your vet is so bad, as someone has already suggested, you should change to another one, but I fear if we must all leave our vets for prescribing Ibuprofen its going to leave us in a fine pickle :)

OK - I understand where you are coming from... and I didn't phrase my post correctly really... I have stopped giving him Ibuprofen until I speak to my vet to double check tomorrow. I am considering changing vets because of a couple of previous incidents with other pets and I have lost faith - but, I live in a small village and they have the monopoly - nearest other vets - 12 miles away. This particular vet is within call out distance (100 yards away) hence, I have stayed...

I wrote my inital post in a flap because my dog was in a lot of pain, and I assumed that you would realise that I would check with a vet before giving a dog human medicine - thats just the way I am. Ask Grace - she knows me :D Thanks all for your responses.

Willis was better today, but is not happy again this evening. I am keeping him quiet and he is having no painkillers at all until I talk to the vet tomorrow.

Edited: He didn't prescribe Iburpofen - he asked what painkillers I had in the house (he was on the phone at the time), and thats all I had. He then worked out the maximum dose for me.

Hi Chloe,
How strange that he's worse in the evenings than during the day....that suggests to me that he may have a bit of a temperature with it, but I could be completely barking up the wrong tree (or completely barking!) ;)

I was told by my vet that aspirin (one of the NSAIDs) is a good stand-by treatment for things like this, so don't worry too much - human medicine can be recommended for animals.

Hope he's better soon - let us know what the vet says.
:)

Glad to hear Willis is improving. I hope things go well tomorrow perhaps when you ask your vet about all this medications stuff it will open up new lines of communications between you and relations with him will improve, sounds like you may be stuck with him anyhow :).

PS I never did think you had given the Ibuprofen yourself, I didn't join the thread until you had made it clear he had given you the say so, but on the otherhand I would have given it myself happily anyway ;):)

How is the leg this morning, Chloe?

Hi Chloe,
I misunderstood your message and assumed that you were giving the ibuprofen yourself without the vet knowing. He may have a geniune reason for giving your dog ibupofen, you really need to talk this through with him and decide what is best to do. I agree with what people on the this thread are saying with my dog it was a fine line between easing the pain and her feeling that there was nothing wrong with her, I had to be careful that she didn't do more harm to her joints. You need to find a vet you can trust and be happy with, I wouln't give him the asprin until you have spoken to the vet. I'm glad he seems better today, hope he gets better soon. Keep us informed.

Kiera x

Hi Chloe

I too misunderstood and thought you were self prescribing Ibuprofen.
I just wanted you to be aware of the possible side affects of Ibuprofen as I remember Alfie's story all too well.

I wish I had some advice to offer about Willis but I have not personally had this problem with any dog I've owned so can't help I'm afraid.

I hope you get to the bottom of it soon

SaraW :)

Hi Chloe
God some people!!!:rolleyes:
How is your big beast doing?
I'm experiencing a similar problem at the moment my post is 'intermittent yelping'.
Hope it goes well at the vets on monday and I'd be interested to know what's the cause of it.
Rachel

Thanks Rachel :) I'll let you know how he goes... I hate to see him in pain, but I've kept him quiet and am stopping him going upstairs as Grace (she of several Great Danes fame) suggested :)

Hope your problem gets sorted soon too.

rachael, what do you mean "god some people" im sure were trying to offer the best advice available to us---i too was told never ever to give it to a dog, as it could damage the kidneys -liver very quickly, im sure this is fairly obvious that were only trying to help--good luck with the boy, hope its sorted soon

Hi Chloe,

Just a thought, cause we had a very similar thing in one of our beardie bitches the other week. She could hardly get up and cried when we tried to help. The vet gave her Rimadyl, which helped, but we also regularly take our dogs to a mctimany chiropractor if they hurt themselves, so we rushed her down to surrey on an emergency consultation and she found that one of the vertebrae in her back was 1/2 an inch out of line. This was put back and she is now undergoing lead exercise and rest. There is a huge difference in her, although her thigh muscles are still a bit sore.

Might be worth a thought:)

manda
X

It has to be remembered that we are dealing with a Great Dane here, a giant breed and one that grows in spurts and at an extremely fast rate. As a few people have said making sure Will doesn't do anything too strenuous is the priority, as well as seeing what the vet has to say. If it is his growth that is causing the discomfort then the vet will find nothing :) I think that Chloe is sensible enough not to put her dogs life at risk ;)

Grace :D

ChloeH.

The great people that told you to watch out for Ibuprofen and to watch out for your vet are both right. as for the vet. It is often best to check on your diagnosis or treatment recommendations and if your veterinarian doesn't like it then that would be enough for me to get a new one. As for the Ibuprofen.

Ibuprofen ( Advil, Motrin) is indeed toxic to dogs and I never recommend it in my practice. Ib belongs to a class of drugs known as Non-steroidal-anti-inflammatory drugs Nsaid(meaning they are not steroids and they reduce inflammation or swelling and fever)

Most Nsaids have similar side effects in dogs. Namely gastric irritation (stomach ulcers, or diarrhea loss of appetite, vomiting), blood thinning, and liver damage. Not all dogs get all ( or any) of the side effects and often the benefits outweigh any potential side effects. Some of the side effects like ulcers can be prevented by giving a smaller dose, giving less frequently or protecting the stomach with cimetadine (tagamet) or some other stomach protector. Other side effects like blood thinning are useful for some diseases. Ibuprofen specifically can kill dogs with it's side effects. There is constant research to find a NSAID that does not have side effects, and yet effective. Interestingly enough cost seems to be less an issue because, as you probably know, when you have a headache, money does not seem so important as getting rid of it. In any event...

Rimadyl (Carprofen): As you can see by the name, Carprofen is a lot like Ibuprofen. In fact it was Ibuprofen modified to be able to work in dogs with out the side effects. Unfortunately for Pfizer, there have been side effects specifically liver failure and death associated with long term use of Rimadyl. I currently don't recommend it because it is expensive and most of the clients whom I recommend it to have older dogs who require it long term. For those clients of mine who wish to use it, I recommend intermittent use or lower dosages and periodic blood tests to check the liver.

Etodolac (Etogesic): Also an NSAID, Etogesic used to be a popular human drug before more potent NSAIDS came on the human market. Etogesic is as expensive but caries the advantages of once daily dosing and clear ranges of dosages that can be used. There are no good studies showing liver toxicity for this drug tho I have read a couple of anecdotal (stories) about it causing harm so I recommend the same precautions when using it as Rimadyl. I recommend this over Rimadyl.

Phenylbutazone ( Bute) was popular with vets 20 years ago. It is a good analgesic and anti-inflammatory but has all the side effects including the liver problems. It is cheap. Dirt cheap.

Aspirin was the first NSAID and is still by far the cheapest. There seems to be little or no liver problems but it is notoriously hard on the stomach. Many veterinarians and certainly the drug companies are on either the Rimadyl or Etogesic bandwagons but I was at a conference last year where the speaker ( a prominent veterinarian) giving a talk on arthritis specifically said that he liked aspirin and used it often. The reasons? Cheap, over the counter, relatively safe, and effective. Unfortunately, at the dosages necessary for pain control, you often see the side effects. Seriously, I have seen dogs bleed to death from ulcers in the stomach induced by Aspirin. I still recommend it, however. I am very specific in my recommendations that it be 1. Given only on bad days ( in the case of arthritis or chronic pain) 2. Given at the minimum effective dose. 3. I recommend cimetidine ( over the counter) to help with the stomach upset or other stomach protectors (tums, pepto). The best aspirins are those that are coated to pass through the stomach (Ascriptin) or buffered (Bufferin).

Not all NSAIDS work the same on all dogs. When you see your vet tomorrow, and if he recommends an Nsaid and it does not work, ask him for a different dosage or a different type.

As for the problem that you originally needed to hear about.

Off the top of my head.

Growing pains (Pan Osteitis) usually affects fast growing large breed dogs. No one knows what really causes it in some dogs and not others but stress, diet, breed (and line), viral infection, and allergies certainly can play a role. This one or the next one I think are most likely off the top of my head and because you said the dog is painful even at rest.

THIS IS NOT A DIAGNOSIS ONLY MY OPINION. SEEK VETERINARY ADVICE!!!!

Sorry, had to do that.

They grow out of it with no other treatment but the NSAIDS though it may travel to other limbs or even recur in that limb. Your vet should be able to see some evidence of it on radiographs but a mild case in a sensitive dog may not really show up to well on films. Sometimes we back into this diagnosis when nothing else seems to fit. Also, sometimes there is an eosinophilia ( type of white blood cells) so if your vet wants to do blood work he is not just shooting for the extra beans.

Trauma. big dogs can blow out their ACL (ligament in the knee) the vet may need to sedate your dog to do a manual test of this joint and it can be confirmed with x-rays. very expensive. hope it is not that one. Treatment for Soft tissue injury or hip trauma. will depend on the extent of damage from nothing to lots of surgery.

HOD (hypertrophic osteodystrophy) also may be confirmed by physical exam and radiographs. Often there is a FEVER. This disease, like Panosteitis, occurs mostly in big dogs. (often GREAT DANES) diagnosis again is by radiograph and it is cause by dietary imbalance specifically too much protein calories and calcium (A premium diet. This is one place where feeding el-cheapo food is handy!!). Also maybe a low vitamin C may play a role in the disease but it has not been proven. They make large breed puppy foods specifically to address this disease and the one I will talk about next. Changing the feed, Nsaids, and a little time may be all this dog needs.

OsteoChondrosis Dissicans. A nasty mane for a fairly nasty disease.
this disease can take way too much time to talk about and I have talked your eyes off already. Suffice it to say that this disease can show up on the hind leg. (femur, at the knee<stifle> joint) and can be ruled out on radiographs. Dogs with this disease often have it in the hock and elbow as well. Surgery is some times needed, as only the mildest cases do not require some treatment.

Hip dysplasia. While certainly it could be this (I recommend that for more reading on this and the previous disease you google them. I am getting tired). Radiographs will rule it out and I have never seen one of these dogs hurt at rest so young. But what do I know?

Other. There are certainly other diseases but these are the common ones.

Good luck.

We have all acknowledged these drugs have side effects and I agree that I would probably not want to give them long term. You list some pretty serious effects of aspirin and yet you say you would give it if the benefits were there, well thats all you can say about any of them, but mostly I think Chloe should be guided by her vet who will see and examine the dog feeling free to question him of course.