Holly (16mth old cocker spaniel) came into season 5weeks ago and she was a bit grumpy and grumbled a lot for the first few days which I put down to her just being confused and perhaps in pain.

She was a nervous puppy and this demonstrated itself in some aggression which we worked very hard to get over. We had thought we were doing really well with her as she settled down and accepted Lara without any real problems (there was a bit of loud grumbly play but no real damage).

Unfortunately this morning things have gone horribly wrong. Issy was sat on the floor next to Holly stroking her, which was fine, but then when Issy stood up Holly went for her :( It wasn't a warning grumble either - it was teeth bared and a deliberate attempt to bite her. Luckily Issy turned away so Holly got her well padded bum rather than her face.

I now don't really know what to do. Is this the beginning of the end or could this be related to her having been in season lately? She's eating well and doesn't seem ill in herself just incrediably snappy and bad tempered.

I'm just so confused by this all as I really thought we'd sorted things out with Holly and she was getting on well with Lara.

Fiona
x x x

I'm really sorry to hear that :( what a horrible thing to happen.

I'm afraid I don't have any advice, other than perhaps Holly thinks that Issy is lower in ranking than her, and thats why she reacted like that when Issy stood up. I would get her to the vets, and if given the all clear, have a serious think about what to do. Having a 3 year old myself, if my dog bared his teeth he would have to go, I couldn't take the chance :(

HTH a bit
Chloe

Oh dear, Fiona, what a worrying thing to happen. :(

I hope it's just that Holly is feeling hormonal still after her season, and she may well be going to have a phantom, which again will make her tetchy. (Think PMT)

I would keep a very careful watch out when Issy is around her (not that you don't already, but even more so) and try getting Issy to do the nice things for Holly - putting down her dinner etc, and not brushing her, which lots of dogs find challenging at times.

If you have any health doubts of course see the vet, but maybe someone here can recommend a 'soother' - not necessarily a tranquilliser, but something likely to take the edge off nerves. (I used to use 'Kalms' for myself before exams, driving test, etc, and they were very good). Valerian is supposed to be a good herbal tranquilliser.

Hope this helps, and things improve for you.
:)

I would have to say though that I wouldn't tolerate a dog thats grumpy on her season around children - its just not acceptable. We get PMT yes, but we don't go round biting the kids :( I've never had a grumpy bitch though, so perhaps I've just been luck - is it common J/G?

Fiona - this is just a general comment, not aimed at Holly

Hi Chloe,
It's not particularly common, but it's not unheard-of either. Bitches can certainly have mood changes related to their seasons; if they are particularly badly affected then spaying is a good course of action.

I've never actually bitten children when I've had PMT - but I've certainly snapped at them! My temper used to get very short occasionally, and slaps were likely to be dished out when usually a ticking-off would suffice. HRT has sorted me, though!

:)

Fiona,
Really sorry to hear this, you must be soooooo upset :-(
Anne

Issy does feed her though - by hand and Holly is really, really gentle with her then. I've spoken to Chris and he said that Holly has been growling at Issy a lot lately (he didn't tell me as he doesn't want Holly PTS) and it's usually when Holly is lying under the chair and Issy comes and sits next to her. Issy has always sat next to Holly and laid down on Holly with out any kinds of problems so something has obviously changed.

I've made an appointment with the vets for this evenng and I'll take their advice on what to do. I don't want to make a snap decision about Holly in case there is something wrong but I've lost all trust in her now and don't really feel as if I have any option.

Holly has never been 100% with the children but she's learnt to just walk away from them and go in her crate if she needs space - the children know not to go in her crate and she knows that she's safe in there.

Fiona
x x x

Hi Fiona - Do you think she's feeling a bit threatened by Lara coming ? and its unsettled the hirachy in the house -Maybe she's not sure where she fits in with Issy any more and as she's above Lara she's trying to get above Issy ? other than that sorry :(
if you've lost trust though it's a difficult one -do what you feel is right for you and yours
best wishes
Liz :)

I think Liz has put perfectly - do what is right for you and yours...

Poor Issy - its so hard trying to explain to children :(

Fiona, I'm sorry to hear about these problems you are having with Holly.It's certainly possible that she is feeling "hormonal" which is making her less reliable than usual with Issy - not that I'm excusing her behaviour in any way. If you cannot trust her 100% with the kids, this does not mean you should take drastic action & have her pts (though I'm no doubt some will suggest this). She could go back to her breeder & they could either keep her themselves or find her a home without children - this is a perfectly feasible solution as there are often older couples without children who would be only too happy to take on a young Cocker like Holly. Take your time over any decision you make & make sure it is you & your husband's decision & no-one else's. Good luck!

As I seem to remember that when Fiona got Holly she had been undersocialised by the breeder due to an unfortunate illness of the breeder, and thi8s resulted in her being rather nervous and less adaptable than she may have been.

This has perhaps resulted in her never feeling really comfortable around the kids, and with hormones on top, she has lashed out, especially as she had gotten away wtih the grumbling at her recently.

I would personally think that she would be OK to rehome with a childless couple, and could cope with normal presense of children on walks etc, as long as she wasn't disturbed or felt threatened by them.

The new owners would have to know that she was not 1% with kids so that she could be crated when they had kids visit, if they weren't sure they would ignore her.

Hi Fiona

I am sorry to hear about the problems you are having with Holly.

I think it may well be a combination of the hormones still being a touch haywire and also maybe unsettled still by Lara coming in on the scene.
Moose is in season at the moment and is a right moody moo at the moment but her moods are materialising as sulking. She has been Daddies little girl for the last two weeks and has only just started to come back to me for fuss and attention. She has been in a few arguements with MB as well. How has she been reacting with Lara ? Have you noticed any change at all ?
See what the vet says tonight and I am sure what ever decsison you come to it will be the right one for all of you.

Keeping fingers crossed that it will all resolve itself.

Lucy
xx

Sorry to hear about this, Fiona :(

I tend to agree it may well be the hormones kicking in - my dog was totally distracted for 3 weeks before her first season, so that's one example of how it can effect bitches, perhaps as Holly has always been a bit uncertain she is now finding the kids intolerable. Of course this is difficult as although it is understandable, you can't take chances.

If Issy is going close to her, she probably just feels very threatened, is it possible the kids have been unintentionally upsetting her? Even by trying to be "nice" rather than letting her alone?

From what you have said and her background, it may mean that she has always been under a little stress and finds it hard to cope, and now it is all coming out unfortunately. It's such a shame but rehoming to breed rescue may be a sensible step to consider. I do feel for you as it is a difficult decision tohave to make.

best wishes
Lindsay

Have you considered having her spayed? That might possibly take care of some of the hormone/behavior problems. Is there something else going on with her physically? I would chat with your vet and see what he/she says. Also, you might want to consult a behaviorist. What kind of training does your girl have? Does she recognize that she is not in charge of the household? She may have to be rehomed to a family without children. Hopefully you'll be able to find a solution that benefits everyone. Good luck to you.

If it is a hormonal thing then spaying could help, (I've known working gundogs develop a hard mouth up to 3 weeks before coming into season) but remembering the problems you had with her as a puppy I do wonder. Obviously the vet is the first port of call. He or she could well have something to say about it. In the mean time, think and talk to the others in the household. Has she ever even as much as looked "cross eyed" at anyone else? An attack on someone she looks at as lower in the order is a behavioural problem, anything to anyone she looks on as socially higher up the ladder is a rather different matter and could point to a more psychological problem.

It's all a bit hypothetical at the moment until you hear from the vet if it could have a medical reason

Regards, John

hi,
i don't know if anyone can give you any advice on rage syndrome, quite frequent in some cockers i am told,i realy do not know much about this but i think it is sudden outbursts of aggression although breeders have tryed very hard to correct this, someone may have more info for you on this, i had never heard of it before until a friend mentioned it, good luck regards tina

No Tina it does not sound like Holly has Rage Syndrome - this condition has a number of symptoms chief among which is that the affected dog does not know what it is doing when it suddenly becomes aggressive & is completely unaware of what has happened after the event as well ie more akin to a brain disorder than a behavioural problem. Unfortunately, whenever anyone is having a problem with their Cocker which results in aggression, people are sometimes quick to assume this is Rage Syndrome when this is rarely the case. True cases of Rage Syndrome are not common & as with any breed, there are any number of reasons why a Cocker may act aggressively in certain situations eg illness, lack of socialisation, inherited poor temperament. More info on Rage can be found here

hi
thanks, interesting reading, regards tina

fiona, im so sorry for you, and of course poor issy, in all the years ive had or owned-been interested in dogs ive found the majority of dogs that exhibit the kind of behaviour holly did coupled with her nervousness rarely tend be be 100% afterwards, if issy hadnt been turned away it could of been her face, i doubt the vet will find anything, i think its in her nature and has been all along, ----personally id take the advice of rehoming her with a non child family, making sure theyre aware of her feelings toward children , pointless in having the worry as the kids are too young to be careful around her, rehome her and enjoy lara, life would be less stressfull not only for the family but also probably for holly,

Sorry to hear that news, I hope Issy is ok now.

I doubt Holly's behaviour is hormonal as Fiona said she has always been a bit off. Personally I would not dare consider a child in that position again.
Dawn.

An update -

Holly went to the vets last night and she's got a slightly raised temperature which the vet was concerend about and he put her on anti-biotics just incase she's an infection anywhere (particularly pyro as she's not long out of season).

I've to take her temperature twice a day to see what happens with it. It's also possible that her temp was raised because she was stressed by being at the vets. She seemed a bit sore on her shoulders as well which is probably where Lara has been jumping all over her. If her shoulders are sore then this would explain why she went for Issy when Issy stood up. Issy was leaning over her to give her a stroke on her head when Holly snapped.

We've arranged for Lara to spend the week with Philippa to give Holly a break from her so we can see how she behaves without Lara being around and challenging her all the time. If there's no change in behaviour then we're going to have to decide what to do with Holly then. Our first step will be to get someone in to observe the two dogs together and then in a couple of months we'll have her spayed. I wouldn't rehome her without having her spayed as this is likely to happen again but neither can I justify to myself having her PTS without trying everything.

On a lighter note - Lara had to have a bath yesterday as a bird pooed all over her head :D Chris didn't realise till after he'd stroked her :D :D :D

Thanks to everyone for all the help/advice

Fiona
x x x

Hi Fiona _ I'm glad to hear there was something 'wrong' as such ( if you know what I mean ) I hope it all works out for you all
liz :)

I think it is an excellent idea to let Philippa have Lara for a week, I do hope the problem is worked out and that you come to a happy "solution".

Best wishes
Lindsay

Fiona

Looks although you have got things under control and want to get to the bottom of this without having a knee jerk reaction to the situation as I know how much you love Holly. I know that Moose does get really peed of at times with MB as she can be quite persistant and so the break from Lara may be a very good idea, give her time to get back to feeling OK and also the course of antibiotics may see an improvement if in deed she has got an infection then she will be feeling a bit under the weather.

I hope things work out for you all.

Lucy
xx

I do hope you manage to get to the bottom of this. You're being wonderfully sensible about it, and not having a knee-jerk reaction, although that would have been quite understandable. With luck Holly will start feeling better quickly.

How is Issy about her - is she nervous, or did it all happen so quickly she didn't realise?

Hope it all works out okay. I'm sure whatever you decide will be the best. Good luck. :)

Hi Fiona

I wouldn't tolerate this behaviour - no iffs or buts!
Holly should have been corrected at the first hint of a growl at Issy - and Issy should not have been allowed to lean over her - that could very well have been her face that got bitten.
This has started as warnings and has escalated into this because nothing was done about the early signs and she got away with them. Your Chris needs a kick up the butt for putting Issy at risk like that without letting you know you had a problem. He didn't want Holly pts so he put his head in the sand and pretended it wasn't happening. How irresponsible is that?
I'm sorry it happened Fiona but the early signs were there and nothing was done about them.
Lara x

Your post seems a bit harsh, Lara. I'm sure Fiona and Chris are feeling bad enough that this happened without someone having a go at them.
I've owned an aggressive dog so I know that you need all the support you can get. Criticism and hindsight do not particularly help in this kind of situation.

I own two aggressive dogs Joyce and dealt with countless others - all because other people had let them get out of control. Two (not the ones I currently keep) have been collected from the vets where their owners had taken them to be euthanised.
It may sound harsh to you but it angers me to pick up the pieces. I see beautiful dogs staring a needle in the face which, in most cases, is totally avoidable. If that offends anyone then that's too bad
Lara x

I see beautiful dogs staring a needle in the face which, in most cases, is totally avoidable

Which is why we're going to do everything we can to get this sorted out so we can remain a two dog family. I can't bear the thought of having Holly pts.

I'm in no doubt at all that what happened is my fault - I'd got too complacent with Holly and the children and was spending too much time developing Hollys relationship with Lara and I refuse to let Holly suffer because I didn't see what was going on.

If you can offer any advice to help the situation then please email me - my email addy is in my profile. I'd love to take advantage of your experience with these situations.

Fiona
x x x

I have used different methods for overcoming aggression problems which I've suited to each of my dogs but I know that one would not have been effective on the other who required an alternative method, and may have acually made the problem worse in another - if that makes sense :) What I also mean is that without meeting Holly advice given with the best will in the world may not be the right advice to sort your problem out for your particular dog. We don't know WHY exactly that she's doing it yet.
I appreciate that you are trying to address the situation and you are doing the right thing by calling in a behaviourist.
In the meantime I'm certain you wouldn't leave Izzy alone with Holly but don't let her hug her or put her face down to her either. Make any contact with Izzy a positive experience by letting her give her a treat under strict supervision - and most importantly concentrate on obedience preferably without Lara present. Holly needs to be taught that she is under control at all times no matter what else is going on.
Good Luck :)
Lara x

Fiona

How are things now ?

Lucy

We're getting there Lucy - thanks for asking :) Lara is still pushing things and Holly is still a bit on the defensive but it's a lot better than it was and we feel that the situation will continue to improve.

I'm doing a lot more individual training with them both and they're both coming along well and seem to happier in their roles within the pack.

Fiona
x x x

Hi Fiona,

Fancy meeting up with the dogs any time?

Alex x

Glad to hear things are going well !;)

Lucy

We do feel really bad about it - Chris knows exactly how I feel about what he did and although he did correct Holly straight away he still should have told me. He tried to do the right thing by not wanting to worry me but it backfired on him.

We won't be giving up on Holly until we've exhausted every possibility. At heart she's a nervous dog and this results in nervous aggression. She's not a nasty dog, if she was she wouldn't let Issy walk of with her food whilst she's eating and as she gave the warning signs which weren't correctly properly we're all confident we can resolve this situation (we being the vet, the family and the behaviourist I contacted today). If we can find a reason for her grumpiness I'm inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt but wth lots of extra training and attention. If no reason can be found and she continues to growl and snap then I'll do what has to be done.

Fiona
x x x

Hi

I had something similar with my rescue staffy. She used to freak and growl if one of the kids, or us, stared her in the eyes from the side. It was really really strange . She was nervous at first though too, but because she didn't snap or bite it was easier to deal with.

I contacted people in Staffie rescue who gave me lots of advice, including some interesting diet tips (including homeopathic stuff). We avoided doing the things that upset her and she settled a lot... now, she's as soft as anything and is now a "true staffie" (she loves the kids).

Personally, I think you are doing everything you can. I would never have considered having Sox put to sleep, but I would have rehomed her if necessary. It was easier for me because Sox wasn't actually snapping, she didn't even seem to know she was doing it! So, my only advice to you would be don't give up on her if you are 100% sure you can prevent her biting.. if not, then it might be time to call it quits and find her somewhere else.

HTH
Chloe

Did the vet check Holly for a possible phantom pregnancy ? Just a thought :-) You could try some homoeopathy remedies specifically for bitches just to try to help her relax a little and sort her hormones out. Even if her hormones are not 100% to blame they certainly won't be helping :-(

I think Jane S is right in that you probably won't have to have her PTS unless the problem gets too bad. There are plenty of childless people who are willing to take on dogs that don't get on with children.

Don't beat yourself up too much, it's wasted energy and you don't deserve it. :-) Just use it as a learning curve. I believe we learn something new with every dog we get.

Best Wishes.
Claire.

How would you correct a dog that is Growling?

It depends on what is making him growl.

Hi Fi,

Sorry I've onyl just caugght up with the thread! Sounds like you've got it under control - i was going to suggest that maybe Holly & Lara needed a bit of breathing space, i know that cleo gets mega grumpy if solo is haveing his puppy days - and she slopes off upstairs at the given opportunity. But with the kids around as well as the hormones, maybe it all got a bit much! Does Holly have anywhere that she can go that gets her away from Lara and the kids? Do they have quiet times (not in their cages next to each other but away from the other?

Jyust a few ideas - though i am sure you have them covered!

Take care adn let us know how you get on...

Alex

It's easy to look back and know what we should have done in a situation, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Don't beat yourselves up about it just go forward and I hope it all works out
Anne

Hello Fiona,

I do feel sorry for you and hope my answer will help.

Firstly PLEASE don't blame the spaniel, bitches who have been in season sometimes suffer false pregnancies which can make them feel very protective towards themselves and also their possessions. You say she is nervous anyway, this won't help how she is feeling.

Also your Working Beardie puppy constantly bullying her could have made her feel over protective about herself and due to her nervous nature, she has found that aggression is the only way to get a bit of peace and therefore is trying what she has found works with Lara, with other people.

Please do give her a chance, it's NOT her fault. If you want to get a behaviourist in, please do be very careful because there are a lot of people out there who think they know what they are doing and have either not been properly qualified or have qualified with little or no personal experience of dogs.

I will e-mail you personally as well about this, but please don't rush into anything!!!!! :(

manda
XX

Hi fiona. Sorry to hear about your problems. I gather that you have two very young dogs. Holly is 16 mths and you have just got a pup, am i right? I was just wondering, apart from the problems you have encountered as described here have you found it very difficult? I ask as i have a nervous collie who is 14 mths old at the moment. I would love to get another puppy - different breed - this summer. Most people say it is too soon to be getting another puppy. Am i mad or does it work? I know puppies are hard work, but does such a close age difference make it harder?
Sorry i can't advise on your problem but i hope it gets sorted soon. It sounds like she is not a bad dog at heart.

Fiona,

I think you're doing everything right.
Holly doesn't sound like a bad girl, just a nervous one. I really hope, what with good owners like yourselves, the behaviourist and the vet, things can be sorted out.

We all learn by our mistakes, and I hope your Chris isn't too downhearted over all of this.

Keep up the good work.

Best of luck

Lisa :)

Hello lucyandmeg,

I would always suggest that anyone who already has a dog or dogs, to wait until their youngest dog is at least 18 months old and under fairly good control before getting another puppy, no mtter what breed.

manda
X

I'm new to the board, hello, but my bitch, who is a very confident, happy, very well socialized dog displayed just the same behaviour as the Cocker in question, although it was never directed at people always other dogs. We went through hell with both her seasons and for 2/3 months afterwards. I understand that there are other underlying problems in this case but my experience tells me that some bitches just have a really difficult time. It is now almost a year since her last season, she's been spayed, if she's going through something similar to my own dog, there's a lot of time and patience needed until she'll be back to normal, or almost. Its hard work, with a toddler and if I understand it another pup, maybe it would be best for the bitch to look for another option, ie rehoming.
Good luck, it's a hard call

Hi,

I don't want to cause an argument here, but some people are suggesting re-homing for the Cocker. This does not make sense to me, as she was fine and quite happy until the new pup came and because the pup has been bullying and harrasing her (as pups do if they are allowed), she is quite naturally getting very fed up with it and being in season and false pregnancy as well, is only doing what she has just learned to do to get some peace. She has been self taught to use aggression to get some peace, by having to fight off the pup to get a bit of peace and space on her own.

I feel this is not the Cockers fault and it would be very unfair to re-home her and keep the pup, when the pup is what has started the problem off in the first place.

This has either got to be worked through and Holly spayed (which I am sure will really help the problem) and Lara kept away from her for longer periods, so she gets some space on her own, or Lara (the pup) re-homed.

This is only my personal and profesional oppinion, I am not trying to cause trouble here, just advising what I feel is best. :)

manda
X

Manda, if you run a search on issysmums posts you will see that she has had several problems with Holly in the past :-)

as a dog person [unproffesional] id personally go the other way--id rehome holly into different circumstances ie retired couple and keep lara, who is perfectly happy and comfortable around the kids

Manda,

As Admin has suggested have a look at some of my previous posts about Holly and you'll see that she's always been a stroppy madam who's incrediably nervous and this comes out through agression. As I stated in my first post we've worked very hard to overcome this and I had thought we were getting somewhere with her.

I'm also well aware of your opinions regarding Lara - you've told me privately several times now that we should return her to Philippa and that WBC should not be sold to pet homes. You have the bossiest from the entire litter in Sparkle and Lara is nowhere near as pushy/dominant as she is. She's simply a boisterous, normal puppy who has the misfortune of living with a stroppy spaniel.

Having had a behaviouralist in the house to observe both the dogs we've made a few changes to the way the household runs and this has made a huge difference to their relationship. They are getting on a lot better now and the hosue is once again fairly peaceful. Hollys temperature is down and she's generally a lot brighter so the vet feels it's safe to assume that she's over whatever was making her feel unwell before. Holly has been in season twice now since the New Year and wihlst she's not going through a phantom at the moment she's still very hormonal which is making her snappy/grumpy. She will be spayed as soon as it's safe to do so - this was always planned as she has hormone problems and her levels aren't stable.

If it does get to the stage of having to permanantly split the dogs up my parents have said that they'll have Holly. She gets on very well with their spaniel and we know that she'd be well cared for. It won't be Lara that goes as she's not the one with the problem with the kids - its Holly and it's the child problem that I'm more concerned about rather than their relationship.

Fiona