Our 6 year old Irish is an embarrassment when it comes to chasing bikes. We have had her 3 years so don't know if anything happened in the past but if she sees a cyclist she just goes ballistic. Unfortunately all the dog walking places have an element of cyclists too (mostly fair weather fortunately!) and it's terrible when we fail to spot one as Mimi will turn circles and then chase alongside the poor cyclist barking in what probably sounds a very aggressive manner. She never touches the cyclist and if they ignore her she soon comes back. It is of course highly embarrassing though and can lead to confrontations. Obviously we try to intercept her before shes them but often you don't hear them and they come flying past so it's then down to whether it's us or her who react the quickest. She also does it to joggers to a lesser extent. I have tried taking her out with my on my bike and she will do the same to me. She can't do it constantly but will chase me several times during the walk. Is it too late to correct this anti social behaviour and has anyone else had a similiar experience?

Hi DJ,
Please do not use the bike yourself as you are reinforcing the game. You may recall Roger Mugford had to stop Princess Anns dog from chasing children on bikes. the Quickest method is to hire the Master Plus gas collar and when your dog chases a bike you say come in a happy manner ectatic even. If your dog disobeys you fire the collar to release the gas to grab your dogs attention. If your dog tries to chase still give the come again and if disobeyed press the remote again and you should get a result. I would use a friend to ride the bike for you or and pretend to be a jogger. The details of hiring these collars is on this site and so long as you get the timing right and you must show you are really happy when your dog returns to you. The dog learns that if I disobey my dad or mum gas appears which i do not like so maybe I better always come when called

my border collie has the same problem. I don't think it is too late to stop it. I have been advised to use aversion therapy. If you can set up a situation where whilst out on a walk you meet a bike, which is ridden by a friend. (this way it saves unnessasary embarrassement - because i know how embarassing it can be!) Provide the friend with a water pistol and as soon as the dog starts to chase instruct your friend to give her a quick squirt. This short sharp shock should act as a deterrent. Repeat as necessary until she no longer decides to give chase. When you meet other cyclists distract your dog with a treat on her nose or toy and tell her to "watch me". It helps if you have her on the lead so that you can recall her and ask her to sit as soon as you spot the cylist. when she does give her the treat and praise her. This is supposed to train her to look at you for a treat when a bike goes past. It does work, but it takes time. As a last, more expensive resort, buy or hire a remote spray collar. (you can borrow them from some vets and trainers or buy over the internet for about £135 - £165) As soon as she starts to chase you activate the collar with the remote and it emits an odorless spray which startles the dog and distracts it so that you can call her and praise her when she stops. The key to this is to make sure she doesn't connect the activation of the collar with you so you have to be discrete. I wouldn't reccommend using this if she has a very nervous character, but it has been found to be very effective! Good luck.

I have been reading all of this sites posts for a while now and cant believe how many people let their dogs off leash "over there". I am even more appalled that you continue to do this when you know your dog has problems. Have you ever heard of a leash? I agree with the above mentioned methods, but in the mean time please put your dog on a leash until your dog is totally trust worthy. It doesnt matter if your dog doesnt bite! That poor biker doesnt know that! If I was the biker and had a dog chasing me like that i would give it a good kick in the head!

I have to agree to an extent - if a dog chased me on a bike I would NOT be happy.... but, it is a catch22 situation - how does the dog learn anything if never allowed off the lead?

With my dog I keep my eyes peeled and he goes back on the lead at the first sign of anything "inflammatory".

Over here, we do not all have massive gardens and acres of land. You have to let your dog off the lead for him to get the exercise he needs.

Thanks for the more constructive comments folks. I don't think keeping a dog on a lead is the approach and my personal opinion is that if your dog doesn't get to run free then it really hasn't got the quality of life it should have. No amount of street walking can make up for a good run in the forest and my greatest pleasure in life is taking the dogs out and seeing them have fun. Unfortunately people will often cycle off road (can't blame them for that) in places they shouldn't which is why we often get taken unawares. I will certainly try the water pistol / treat method and see how we go so thank you for that idea!

As a PS I am even more appalled that a so called dog lover would consider 'kicking a dog in the head'. Would you do the same to an over boistrous puppy? It's a shame we can't treat some of our problem humans in the same way poodle person thinks we should treat out dogs.

Hi DJ, Can i just add be careful with the water pistol as the dog can take it that the person on the bike is hurting it (obvously not in pain) or it becomes a good game (again because the water does not hurt unless it goes directly into the eyes). If it appears to be turning into a game then stop. We tried to teach Police dogs to swerve when they went for someone holding a gun as they are taught nothing comes out of the end but a bang. It was just a test to see if they would learn to duck the bullets well at least give them a fighting chance but water was no deterent to them at all.

Do have ago but if no quick result then do hire the master plus as when you give the command and it disobey you fire the remote and then give loads of praise for the recall. Always gas after disobeying you in that order. The cyclist or jogger could hold the compressed air called Pet Perswader and fire that over the dogs muzzle but not towards the eyes and you immediatly give loads of praise for the recall. usually one session followed by a test a week later should do it. Please do let us know how you get on.

I am hoping poodleperson was exaggerating - but I have to admit, I often go out on my mountain bike and if a dog snapped at my leg then I would defend myself... wouldn't you? I would be concerned what would happen if that dog went for a child? My honest advice would be to ensure your dog has an effective recall and get him/her on the lead when a cyclist approaches :)

HTH
Chloe

Hi Chloeh, Good point its not funny being on the other side so to speak. The Dangerous Dogs Act allows for everyone not to fear or be apprehensive of anyones dog anywhere and that includes dogs barking from behind fences.
This does give me an idea for me to ask a question of this forum about their views of future rules within the EU to combat dog aggression. I have to go to the EU in Strasbourg sometime this year in order for the EMPs to listen to my views on Dog Aggression and formulating changes that will effectivley curb aggression in the future.
I do like the system they have in Australia where unless your dog holds a certificate of reasonable obediance and socialisation you are not alowed to let your dog off the lead. If people are not prepared to train their dogs then they have to stay on the lead.

If I can ask the question and people think about the future rules they would like to see they can had them to the question and I will print it out and hand it to Theresa Villiers MEP (London). The Germans had such a problem with agressive dogs they wanted all big dogs phasing out all togehter. This has been shelved but for how long as it quite logical, big dogs do the most damage. If the forum would like a chance to have a say then I will gladly hand it in.

In the Australian system, who issues these certificates? I imagine that system could be easily bypassed if you have the right 'friends'. We know that the sooner a puppy gets off-lead the better its recall is likely to be, so not letting it offlead until it has a good recall is surely putting the cart before the horse!

We all know the German proposals were ludicrous, draconian, biased and totally unreasonable and led to some outrageous mistreatment of animals. Certainly we don't need aggressive dogs, but as they say "punish the deed, and not the breed".

A boistrous puppy and a full grown large dog are two totally different things. No i would not kick a puppy in the head, but if a large dog was chasing and barking at me on my bike i would most certianly would to something to protect myself. What if the biker was afraid of dogs in the first place? Like i said before the biker doesnt know your dog is not vicious. This would give that person and others even more reason to consider baning off leash dogs. Yes i am a huge dog lover, but if i was getting chased by a dog it doesnt matter how much i love them i would do something.

Bigpoodleperson,

"I have been reading all of this sites posts for a while now and cant believe how many people let their dogs off leash "over there". I am even more appalled that you continue to do this when you know your dog has problems. "

I assume by "over there" you mean "over here", since this is a U.K. site. It's all a matter of perspective :-) I assume that "over your way" is the U.S., if not, please correct me. I expect that the attitude in the U.K. would change when the propensity to sue catches up with the U.S.

Personally, I too cannot believe how many people insist that their dog must be allowed off lead, even though it has behaviour problems or habits with are potentially harmful to other people, their property or their pets. I do not agree that a dog is in any way harmed by not allowing them off lead, as long as they have sufficient opportunity to exercise either in a large fenced area (off lead) or on lead. Flexileads extend out to 26 feet and you can buy leads which are even longer, it's not as if a dog has to been glued to it's owner's thigh.

Stacey

"Over here, but from 'over there'"

Hi Stacey

Stacey: I do not agree that a dog is in any way harmed by not allowing them off lead, as long as they have sufficient opportunity to exercise either in a large fenced area (off lead) or on lead. Flexileads extend out to 26 feet and you can buy leads which are even longer, it's not as if a dog has to been glued to it's owner's thigh.

You may not believe that a dog is not harmed by never being allowed off the lead, and you may well be right... but I allow my dog off the lead because i enjoy it . I enjoy to see him stretch his legs, and sniff about. Its a hobby for me to walk my dog every day, and I would not enjoy walking him on the lead. Now, providing I am a responsible owner and I do not walk him in "people places", nor allow him to bound up to people, chase things or be a nuisence - then its my choice in life to do this.

We may not be a state that sues at the drop of a hat, but we are rapidly becoming one where you can be frowned on doing something that you enjoy personally.

Chloe :)

I personally believe that a dog is harmed by never being off the lead, but that's my opinion. :)

Hi everyone,

I partly agree with the posts about dogs not being harmed by not being allowed off the lead, as long as you make sure that they have some other type of energy release.

We have bearded collies and one in particular (Winifred) has very strong chasing and nipping instincts (something that the breed naturally does, being cattle dogs as well as sheep dogs) and she only goes free early mornings with a baskerville muzzle. All other times she is exercised, she stays on a extra long flexi, so she can easily be controlled and stopped from chasing and nipping.

She also has energy release time in the garden, either training and playing retrieve games or doing a bit of agility.

I feel this is much safer for her and other people and their dogs, so there is no chance she can be accused of being "a dangerous dog" or causing a nuisance.

manda
X

I know only a little of the actual organisation in Austrailia and it is immaterial to my intended question. We could of course end up like America and have back yard dogs that never go for walks except on the lead.
If you have seen what I have seen that the only way to recognise a 5 year old girl was by her blood stained clothes it would put you off owning a dog. As to the Germans they simply put people first in the same way as we put children first.
I will ask the question for people who wish to answar with positive views and not degrade any other nation who are doing their best to solve dog agression. There will be a way forward and if you wish to contribute your are free to do so.
If the Board would like to see this forum have its contributors air positive views I am prepared to ask the question and take all the views what ever they are to hopefully produce rules we can all follow and force those that have little care about controling their dogs agression to do something.

For me my next GSD puppy in Spain he will be required to wear a muzzle when he grows up and I have no problem with that because I do not wish anyone to be in fear of my dog.

I was surprised at your reply, Alan, because I wasn't being sarky - I genuinely thought you had details of how the Australian system works because you mentioned it, and said you liked the system. I spoke to my nextdoor neighbours (who are Australian) and they hadn't come across it when they lived there with their dogs. So I'm still interested in how it works - who assesses the dogs and issues the certificates. Without the facts how can we decide if we think that's a sensible road to go down?

As this is a discussion forum, perhaps you could put forward your views to give everybody else a start. I'm sure we all have our opinions, which seem blindingly obvious to us, but ideas can be very hard to put into words, and can be so easily misinterpreted on the Net.

It would be wonderful if all puppies born were of sound temperament and were well trained. The majority (I believe) are. As usual it is the exceptions that make the headlines, but this should not be allowed to adversely affect the majority.

I have only heard of the system that to me sounds a logical idea as we use to teach a road safety training class in York for simple obedience and socialbility. It is not to use any other countries system whether they work or how they work or not as the case may be but I would like to see everyone in this country do some simple training to show that we teach our dogs good manners.
The question is what would you like to see as rules within the EU that would make people take some consideration towards training their dogs to make them less likley to cause anyone to fear dogs.
As an example you know my view is to train every dog or have to keep it on a lead once it is no longer a puppy.
Rules are applied by the EU by taking recommendations from those who should have experience. Yours and my views are not requested for consideration. As I at least have an oportunity to take yours and anyone elses thoughts and give them to EMPs who may or may not head those views they are at least before them to consider otherwise they wont be. The question is what would you like to see happen to better control dog agression. It is quite simply does the board wish me to ask the question and without discussing it with me, enter their positive views. If there is a nice long list of people giving their views on how they belive there should be a system in the EU to control dogs and dog agression then maybe somewhere in there will be something that they can use and to standardised throughout the EU.
I would think that for the safety of children taking all dogs for simple obedience and none agression clases with a test at the end would be easy to standardise. As you say and I agree it is only a small % of dogs that are in the headlines but non the less we see agressive dogs loose everywhere we go with owners who have little consideration until the event happens. I do not like barn door actions. If you feel that such simple training should not be made obligitory I can discuss that with you as that is my opinion. I am not the EU only the possiblity of being the messenger.

I have lived in Australia most of my life (last 3 here in the UK). I must admit I have never heard of not allowing your dog of the lead unless they have a certificate. I belive that the majority of dog owners would be breaking the law in that case. There are lots of restrictions on dogs in Oz, not allowed on public transport, not allowed in national parks (cant recall if allowed on lead but dont think so) so unless changed?.... Not wanting to disprove what has been commented upon, just never heard of it. sorry.

It is so nice to be in a country that allows dogs of the lead in forests and country walks. I would just hate to think that my dog is confined to the backyard and walks on the lead. I am going to train my dog in obedience and in the good citizens awards so I aim to have Sydney well behaved when off lead and not be a menance to society. Being a bike rider myself and having almost fallen off a bike when a dog lunged at my legs because I was cycling past I am taking all steps to train Syd to be a well behaved dog. It should be every dog owners responsibilty to protect their fellow citizens from any form of misbehaviour from their dog.

stepping from my soap box now and retiring.

Glad you like it here! I must admit I wouldn't want to live anywhere else (despite our mad politicians!!) It sounds as if you are going to bring Syd up to be a very nicely-behaved dog. Good on ya! :)

Edit: It seems like the Australian "certificate system" somebody mentioned earlier is a fabrication, then. No wonder he didn't know any details!!! :D

I only heard about this I think when i was discussing the Dog Aggression Act with John Rogerson and I may have miss heard and it is not from Australia but maybe it was New Zealand. Whether it does exist is not the question. I was not presenting a system that works just if I heard correctly it does sound logical and I like it. If it is not Australia then I am sorry.
My question is not here is a system lets all use it I was simply going to ask what alternatives to what I was thinking would dog owners like to see that could curb dog agression thoughout the EU. I was hoping for positive comments of what we might do and if they might work.
My consern is about the number of attacks on children throughout Europe not get into an argument of what is or is not going on in any other country. To my knowladge no country yet has by statistics resolved the Dog Agression Problem. But maybe someone knows of a system that works or makes one up that might work.
Now rather than saying what does or does not work or that I may have got the wrong coutnry is not worth worring about or getting on a soap box for. If you do have some thoughts on a system which may work to control dog agression better than we have now would we all not be interested and pass it on to the EU. I do not wish to discuss them only print them out and hand them in. I am not trying to promote my ideas at all only get the forum to come up with possibly something better. you sound like like in the other posts you have seen dog problems from both sides by being a dog owner and a biker. What could we do in the future to stop this. Please dont shoot me I am only the messenger.

I think the perception on your part seems to be that dog aggression is a constant threat, whereas in fact it is a rare occurence, and human aggression is far more prevalent.

Surely there are already enough laws that would cover any situation caused by an irresponsible owner allowing a dog to be a danger.

Unfortunately most of the incidents with dog asggression are not caused by those who would take notice of any rules, but these rules would needlessly, and probably expensively impinge on responsible folks enjoyment of their walks and animals.

I also dislike this idea that you ahve sevearl times brought up that big dogs should be phased out.

Without meaning to be insulting to owners of toy breeds, but if there were no big dogs then I would sooner own a cat or rabbit, what wiht all the restrictions that some would like to wrap us up in.

Eduactaion is where the solution lies. This should start in school. So many children are divorced from contact with living creatures, that the normal common sense approach around animals has all but disappered, and is a reason why so many new puppy owners encounter problems with their pups, even though they are perfectly inteligent human beings, so many people have had little to do with animals that the inate ability to deal with them has gone.

It is not so rare if you just look at the post on this site. If you read the papers dog attacks 5 year old etc. This is not just the UK it is all over Europe. The Dangerouse Dogs Acts says that no one should be apprehensive of any dog. Laws are often barn door stuff and is it not better to find a way to make our society a safer place by requiring all dog owners to learn correctly how to train a dog than fines from courts and lost lives. Someone has already said a licence fee could be used to fund the teaching of our future dog owners (children). Yes aggression is a constant threat but only from a small % of dogs. Most dog are reasonably well socialised. From the EU point of view how do you stop dog attacks. Who are more important children or dogs. On any MPs desk there are more letters complaining about dogs than supporting them. We now have proof that having a dog is medically beneficial to both us and to dogs. If you want to live longer buy a dog. There are laws for speeding and all sorts of driving minstakes but you do need to have a licence to drive because a car can kill and injure. So too can a dog.
It was not my idea to phase out all big dogs but a German proposal put forward to the EU for consideration as future law because Germany had such a high incidence of dog attacks. This could have gone through without you ever knowing it until too late but luckly common sence prevailed and is currently shelved. We all know that small breeds are just as aggresive maybe more so but they do not do as much damage. You are correct the laws can be used now to make anyone owning a dog that makes people apprehensive have placed on it a control order. As the Law is that simple people are waking up to the fact they do not have to put up with noisy or dangerous dogs. Is it not better for us to put forward ideas that put are own house in order on how to control agressive dogs that everbody is willing to abide by before some other similar draconian law is pushed through to do it for us which really will impinge on responisble dog owners just to stop those who at the moment have no interest in controling their dog until a major incident occurs. I just dont wish that incident to be my daughter your daughter or anybody elses daughter. You correctly say yourself education is the key but should it only be to children when as you also correctly say many adults do not know how to train their dogs and end up with one displaying major aggression. It is these that I try to retrain but quite often they only come to me following an incident. I am not here to ask for your support for my thinking which I simply posted as an example. I would like anyone to put forward any idea that may have that will get all people to train their dogs for socialbily. Maybe someone has the right idea that would work. the Problem here is poor PJ 's orginal problem seems to have disapeared.

As you have such a lot of experience in this field it would be extremely helpful if you could give us a suggestion of your own.

[deleted]

Hi brainless,
I fully agree. I was training a dog in spain to walk by my side and winston was no problem to man nor beast yet one lady with a GSD veered clean over to the other side appearing frightened of him. Could I to be held to account for having a dog that has caused someone apprehension. Don't look at me I did not vote for this law. It just snuck in.

I have four very friendly dogs. There is a large family across the road from me that will walk into the middle of the street rather than come within 20 feet of the dogs. By the strict interpretaion of the Dangerous dogs act, my dogs are causing them apprehension and they fear they may be attacked.

Now their fears are totally irrational, they have seen my dogs walking nicely on their leads for several years, never interfering with anyone, but still they have this fear.

If I meet them coming towards me, I feel so embarrased, as even when I stop and stand back to give them more room to pass they walk into the road. :(

Hi Alan

I have a Great Dane pup (8 months) who I have been very careful to socialise - however, he seems to get picked on by smaller dogs with an attitude problem! Only tonight, a smaller dog (looked like a Min Pin but larger - a pinscher?) insisted on running up (while my dog was on a lead) and trying to put a paw on him and then growling and snapping. Willis didn't take much notice, but I do wonder how many times this would happen before he got very wary of little dogs (something my breeder warned me of!).

Personal preference? The bigger the dog, the less snappy - but thats just me ;)

The problem with dog-to-dog aggression (to me) is that it is reinforced unknowingly, by the owners. In the example above, the owner came rushing up and picked the dog up (therefore increasing its dominant outlook) whilst telling me that the dog used to be best friends with a Great Dane!?? Therefore, a national qualification (including compulsive training) sounds like a good idea... is it workable though?

Chloe

Hi Chloeh, I dont know why it is but in the dog world size does not matter. (I kept telling my wife that) Why a little dog fancies its chances against a bigger dog is beyond me. I understand it is in the depth of the growl that a bigger dog can produce in saying get lost that matters. Most big dogs just show the stance of "you got to be kidding" then that deep cough and the little dog goes off yapping with its tail between its legs. It does seem that big dogs correctly brought up do not need to be aggressive as they have few enimies. Ferrel dogs revert to genetic rules of not to bodly harm other dogs but only use ritualised agression of mouthing and growling but little physical contact.
I agree with you it is we who teach dogs (probably inadvertantly) to be agressive. Certainly thats my view and why I go to Strasbourg as I feel that a % of dogs trained using enforcement methods of training using choke chains get to believe agression works.The handler is agressive to teach the dog and so some dogs may feel they can be agressive against those it thinks are lower in the pack like the children.
I love big dogs but what you have is too big for me. My bomb proof dog is a cross of medium size from a Spanish dog Shelter but I would also like a big black GSD again as well.
Talking to John Rogerson the other month about the reducing number of dogs owned in the UK is not due to the DDA but the little rules coming in like walking on a lead rules and more and more ristrictions filtering in as to where dogs cannot go and the worst one is to have to use Poop Skoops. Also relationships do not last long anymore so a dog is a long term commitment and is restrictive in many ways now.
We know a lot more about how to train without pain and how to socialise dogs with dogs and humans but as humans, are interaction with our dogs is not always successful. If there was a requirement to train to a simple standard then that would be a step forward. To own a car that can kill we must pass a test so why not a test for owning a dog. Could it work??????? We had many agressive dogs turn up at the York School but at the end of 10 weeks all were fine but some agressive dogs were never brought back and it is these dogs that need the training. 65% of dogs are no problem. I just do not wish to see the German idea back before the EMPs or some other draconian rule.

What sort of person would choose not to have a dog because they are required to clean up after it. This I find a very strange concept. Now if the bitrth rate went down because people were disgusted about the idea of changing babies nappies, then the idea might work for me!!! :D

we doggy people are natually quite happy to do this but there are a lot of people who just let their dogs go in the streets in town and not clean up just walk away. I do not like to do it either and why we taught our dogs to go in rough grass areas on command so we did not have the problems. I did have a problem one day walking through York, my dog developed the runs and had to go in the gutter in the walk only street in the mair area of York. Leaving my dog to guard the mess I had to go and ask at a pub for hot water and a mop. After I had cleaned up and embarresed the watchers simply cheered me as this 35 years ago was not so common. (It was a mess Yuck)
There is a large bulk of doggy people but there are those out on the fringes who do look at this necessity particullarly if they live in an area heavy with dog ristrictions.
As to babies yes the numbers are dropping and my 15 year old daughter says she will adopt when she is a lot older so she can enjoy life first and does not fancy the PAIN. We will see?

In some German states any dog over 40 pounds and a certain height would have to be muzzled and on a lead at all times. This ruling would affect most of the breeeds that are very sound in temperament, and have few aggressive individuals be3ing mainly sporting sogs. Thsi includes my own breed (Norwegian Elkhound) all the Retrievers, yet would not have covered some of the highly driven exciteable small breeds that can often be ankle biters if inproperly schooled and socialised.

I have met far more aggresive small dogs loose than big ones. The ownerz of the large ones are by and large far more careful, whereas some of the littel dogs owners use the size as an excuse for bad behaviour. God help the owner of the larger dog if it defends itself!

It isn't dogs or their breeds that requirte restrivting but people need to be punished if they allow their dogs to bite having shown aggresion in the past.

Who would pay for and run these tests? At the moment many people train their dogs quite adequately themselces, and most training classes are run on a voluntary basis for a small charge to cover the cost of hall rental.

It is becoming more and more difficult to find venues to hold training classes, as many Local Authorities won't allow their buildings to beused because of pressure from parent Groups that have bought into the idea that the very presense of a dog in the same bvuilding where they hold playgroups will contaminate their children with disease!

The halls that our local classes use, it is the the dog clubs that invariably are the only ones that sweep and clean the hall.

Yes Germany had a lot of problems and why this was placed before the EU. They do know that small dogs are more likly to bite than big dogs but big dogs do the most damage. As I have said I do not mind my dog having to wear a muzzle. A dog is a loaded gun with teeth for bullets. In a muzzle it is holsterd.
You do point out the ever increasing dog ristrictions as non doggy or children biased parents show concern at the medical problems of contact with dogs.
How it would work is not for me to debate but if you have any proposals or ideas that is what I am looking for to show to the EU what doggy people would like to see. Would we have to pay a fee for training classes like the driving licence requirements. My guess is the EU would go for self funding rather that pouring out money as restrictions are much cheaper and why the German proposal looked so good. Big dogs can kill get rid of all big dogs to save childrens' lives. How can we complain at that, putting children before dogs. I have not heard from the board if they are interested in my asking the question in order for those interested to place on record what is they would like to see done to control agression in dogs owned by those not prepared to train their dogs. The problem is there are some well trained dogs that have bitten too but yes dogs that bite are only in the minority. Any rules must be for all of us and not the barn door stuff of the DDA where we have to wait for a child to be bitten before action is taken. Proper training I think is the key and should it be obligitory for the defence of children.

I agree, people should train their dogs effectively.

Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, what people should do and what they actually do are two very different things. :(

When I was learning politics we were taught that a law has to be very carefully worded so that it cannot be misinterpreted, and also (a very important point) if a law in unenforceable it is a bad law, and should not be passed.

I think (my personal opinion) there are many things that put children's lives at risk far more than dogs do! But because banning them would affect the economy then they are conveniently ignored. I would not like my dogs muzzled when out - my dog in the past has saved me from personal attack from a man, and that would not have been possible otherwise. So in my personal experience men are a far greater risk to public safety than dogs!

What question are you proposing to put to the 'Powers that be'?

I do agree with you. I would like to ask what doggy people like to see in order to reduce the incidence of dogs agression. I dont want to discuss it only take peoples views. If we discuss it it is like I may be shaping peoples opinions and i dont want to do that. There may be a better way than mine but I do not wish to influence peoples views. With a nice big list I can hand into the EU that is dealing with Dog Agression Laws maybe your views will be looked at. I would like the board to allow a new thread for the site to use the forum to think of better ways to improve things before they do something that does not work because as you say they get the words wrong or cant enforce it properly and it becomes bad law.

Okay, I'll start the ball rolling with a possible idea.

Obviously any 'training regulation' would have to be self-financing. Any money that comes from local or central Government has been raised from taxes, and any tax rise is unpopular. Any unpopular Government risks being voted out at the next election.

I would suggest a £5 dog licence, with a disc issued (maybe a different colour each year?) to attach to the dog's collar, like the road fund licence disc on a car's windscreen. The revenue from this would go towards dog-friendly education schemes in schools etc to teach children about correct dog welfare. These children are the dog-owners of the future.

Comments?

I can only say nice one. Is sounds a bit like the system I remember in the Film Lady and the Tramp the Spanial bitch had lost her licence tag so ending up in the city pound.

PS Like the idea of teaching children how to treat and be with dogs. We are trying that in Romania. Can you imagine childern gladly showing off their dog bites like medals.

Only just got round to reading this - very good idea about increasing awareness in schools.

Many children don't have dogs at home because both parents (or the single parent) is working fulltime. Not unnaturally they haven't a clue about how dogs think, what their behaviour is like - all they have seen in TV or film dogs. If children are taught how to behave around dogs; not to try to pat them on top of the head, not to run and shriek and squeal, etc etc, then they are less likely to be scared by an over-excited bouncy dog wanting to play, which is often when things get out of hand.

I agree the one accident we often found was a child wrapping their arms round the neck of a dog and then Bang came the bite. The other common one but for younger children was to wadle towards the dog in its basket or corner with their arms in the air for balance and full eye to eye contact so the dog haveing no where to go bit. Understanding the mind of a dog is so important and teaching children brings back your earlier comment of owners of the future

Jeangenie,

I am Australian, from Melbourne which is a large city, and I have never heard of certification for dogs to be off lead. Parks are usually designated on leash, or "off leash but under effective control". Some big parks have specific areas for dogs to be off leash. Similarly with beaches - there are zones where dogs can run free, or else it is organised by time zones eg. off leash before 9 am and after 7 pm. The restrictions usually apply only during the summer when beaches are busy. Regarding licences, councils in most of the big cities require dogs and cats to be registered and the cost varies depending on whether the animal is speyed/castrated or not. A tag is provided, colour coded for the year, and if an animal gets lost the owner can be traced according to the tag number. Council officers randomly visit parks and check that dogs have their tags and if not a fine is imposed on the owner. Most people comply. From memory, the cost of annual registration was around £15 but higher for an unsterilized animal. One of the things that the councils spend the funds on is good provision of pooh bags in parks and the visibility of these has resulted in a level of owner responsibility for cleaning up after their dog which is much higher over there than here. Some doggie people will also hang their household plastic bags on the doggie posts to encourage people to clean up. :)

That seems very sensible! My friends from Perth had nevr heard of the certification scheme, either!
:)

I wonder why modern bikes never seem to have a bell. I have lost track of the times I have been startled by a cyclist. My lot are great around bikes, but being taken unaware doesn't give time to alert them to the bike, and they have been known to meander in front of one.

They not got lights either one ran into me one dark night right into my crutch (Ouch or something like that). I did hear some clicking but too late when i figured out what it was.

Thats a very valid point - I have to keep my eyes peeled in both directions :rolleyes: but I am so worried about the DDA that its a small price to pay.

DJ,

If you were on a bike and thought that a dog was attacking you I expect you would consider kicking it in the head a better option then getting bitten.

Stacey

I suppose I am lucky and never been attacked by a dog except when I wear a protective sleeve in training and competions and that was not agression. My concern and commitment here stems from seeing the results of child attacks. How to fend off a dog is a worthy question to look into and see what is the best. Compressed air cans might work but never tried them but how often to you carry things like that around. Rape alarms may work or certainly a mace spray if we could have them here but not for children. Standing still and facing the dog licking your lips my show the dog you mean it no harm and my stop it. Totally ignoring the dog as if it does not exist is consistant with dog genetic rules. Placing ones bike between you and the dog. I would like to know the answar to this one too.

In watched an interesting program on Dingos once - and how the majority of child attacks happened because the children ran when approached. I have always been over cautious with my children, they are not allowed to touch any other dogs without asking the owner, and even then I am not keen. A woman said to my daughter once that her dog was fine, loved children, and it started to really growl at Mollie when she went near.

I think you have to teach kids to stay away from unknown dogs, they don't understand you can touch some and not others :( And, to never ever ever run. Whether that is practical or not is a different matter - and that just goes for "standard" attacks... what about the ones that occur when dogs have gotten out and children are playing in their own gardens?

I can honestly say I wouldn't know what to do if approached by an aggressive dog who was unleashed...

Maybe bigpoodle was right then and what would we do if a dog was flying towards you and you were terrified. would we all not just kick out and if that did in fact work and irrate owner comes up and complains about you kicking their dog that now limps. Emmmmmmmmmm?

I'd kick the owner aswell - and then run off :D (JOKE)

Seriously, depends how big the dog is - small and yappy, then I'd probably defend myself. Big GSD or similar...? I'd probably back off slowly and then report them.

What would you do Alan?