The instrctor at my pupppy classes bought in a choke chain from America last week and I can safely say it was the most horrendous thing i have ever seen

Not only does it choke like the ones over here (which I think is bad enough) as it chokes it has spikes that stick into the dogs neck!!!

I was horrified.

Since then when watching TV every dog I have seen on American shows is wearing them!!!!!

These are known as 'prong collars', and are very open to abuse. Sometimes when they are removed from a dog they are found to have blood and hair on the prongs. :(

~ Pinch & Prong Collars ~

Was your instructor recommending their use ?

Daisy

God no!!! She bought it in to show us all how horrible it was. The classes I go to wont even allow choke chains!!!!

She put it round my wrist and tightened it and it was very uncomfortable.

I'm sure they do train the dog to heel far more quickly but I personally would never use one.

If you havent got the time to train a dog without aids like that I dont think you should have one!!!!!!!

She did say they were illegal in this country. Is that right???????

They sound really horrible :(

Daisy

Rachael ,
somebody did actually advise to use one of these on a recent post re: a dog pulling when walking .
I did mention at the time that I thought perseverance and praise was a better way to teach pup but some people actually disagreed with me and said how wonderful these " horrible" looking things are. Have you actually seen one ? :(
I would never try one on my dog - he pulls too ,but I have to say I would never ever try one even if people do say they dont hurt the dog . If they dont *hurt* then why are they using one anyway ?
Lel

Not sure as to why it would be American....we had them as standard collars when I worked for the CD in Spain some years ago.

Maybe cos we don't watch many Spanish TV programmes ? :D

Hi rachaelparker

Can I ask if you know about the studies on flat buckle collars, excluding the flexi lead? can I also ask if you have heard of the studies done on the collars you mention, prong collars, and chokers? the later being freely available and in common use throughout the UK.

I use a prong and it works. The buckle and the choker did nothing for my dog he just pulled which caused more damage then good. Where with the prong he actually listens and Iam slowly going back to a buckle. A prong is not ment forever use but as a training and eventually to go back to a buckle with a well behaved dog. The person on the other end of the lead should no how to properly put on and use a prong collar. The prong is only if all other training type collars fail to work on ur dog which was the case with mine. I have 2 that I can walk on a buckle, one on a choker, one on a prong and Taz on a haltie (but he just walks himself actually and very good at heal). I have never had him yelp at all or wheezing while on the prong where with the choker(the chain one) he did. I usta think they were mean till I used one and was properly fitted and shown how to use it. I don't think any training collar should be sold with out the proper fitting and shown how to properly use one. They may look mean but it is a lot more meaner when u r walking ur dog and they are pulling and choking them selves and causing damage to their kneck/throat.

ttfn :)

I've also seen these, and I've been told that they simulate the mother biting the puppy by the scruff. Not sure if this is completely true because I know that you are definitely not supposed to use these with puppies under 6 months.

Another device that's not for me.

I've found the best way to teach heelwork is with a clicker and then to get a close heel and gait for the ring with a target stick.

I won't use a choke either for the damage that they cause, after a couple of hours clicker training, the dog doesn't pull anymore. This came into its own for me with a blind rescue I had who had never been on a lead - I hate to think what it would have done to him if I had used a prong/choke etc.

Hi Dollface, Sammy,
It's nice to see people showing genuine concern and taking the trouble to understand things in order to take constructive welfare steps for their dogs sakes.I was taught by a professional trainer (one with a proven record) some 15 or more years ago he introduced me to a prong collar after about 8 months of positive classes with negative results, I still use one on my bitch.
They do NOT choke at all, that is misleading and incorrect information arrived at without attempting to establish facts and which could lead other owners into making decisions less favourable to themselves and the welfare of their dog than they otherwise might make if they were correctly informed..
That first trainer told me of some clinical German studies on prong collars and choke chains, of the 100 dogs studied 48% had neck, spinal and back injuries on the dogs which had chokers used. Of the ones which had been studied in the same studies and which had had prong collars used on them only two had any injuries to the back and neck and one of these showed hereditory faults on autopsy.
They are a German collar orginaly, not American, and are seen extensivly throughout Europe where they are in common use and have been since before WW2, in UK choke chains are used in preference.
In the early 1990's Dr Anders Hallgren did studies on 400 pet dogs with volunteers for his studies. These dogs were kept on flat buckle collars all their lives and were no more or no less prone to pulling and some jerks as any normal dog in UK. Of the 400 dogs studied 392 showed srious back, cervical and neck injuries. The injuries were the result of normal dogs which had not acheived a heel without some pulling after their obedience training. Needless to say that such injuries cause pain, that in turn can cause agression and mood problems in some dogs Unfortunatly those studies did not include flexi leads or halters, considered the most dangerouse peices of equipment ever by informed and concerned people.
For those wishing to find out more factual information, in order to make informed decisions about prong collars and halter types there is some good information by holistic trainer Suzanne Clothier at the following address.

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/articles.html

A flat buckle collar is best if it covers 2 vertebrae, which then means it is as safe if not safer than anything else. Check chains will invariably be used for yanking, haltis are great if not misused ( I have seen one misused by an idiot at a class i was watching and the neck cracked, it was horrible) but used properly they are fine.

i agree flexis too if misused can be abusive - my friend was out with her Goldie pup and some fool told her the best way to get him back was to put him on a flexi and let him run to the end of it. Duh! Flexis are always best used with a harness.

Anything can be misused, it all depends on the person on the other end.

Prong collars are used almost as the norm in places like Brazil, but at the end of the day,
a prong collar is going to be far more nasty than most other collars if it is yanked - you don't get the vertebral damage so much, but you do get the "blood and hair". It just doesn't show up as serious damage. on say, an x ray which presumably these other dogs had had.

I have to say I don't understand that out of 400 dogs wearing normal collars 392 had SERIOUS back, cervical and neck injuries. This would mean that a large proportion of dogs walking down the street would have severe pain.Most agility dogs tend to wear flat buckles and you don't see them unable to jump!

I agree that the clicker is a very humane way of teaching walking to heel - I have used it for teaching both loose lead walking (for relaxed strolls on lead) and also very animated heelwork (I think!) Being totally hands off too - it solves a lot of headscratching as to what piece of equipment is best to use :D ;)

JMHO as ever

Lindsay

Lindsay

Lindsey..Prong collars are used almost as the norm in places like Brazil, but at the end of the day,
a prong collar is going to be far more nasty than most other collars if it is yanked - you don't get the vertebral damage so much, but you do get the "blood and hair". It just doesn't show up as serious damage. on say, an x ray which presumably these other dogs had had.

YAPYAP, I do not live in Brazile I live in Watford. Thare is no blood and hair, that is a false statement, please point us all to the studies to substantiate that statement and your experience. As I underststand it all you know is dishing up dollops of food to 'train' dogs.
For an enlightened and experienced opinion try, this, experienced, holistic trainer also does not live in Brazil and on this site she also gives the reader the dangers of halter types.

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/articles.html

OKay people. Is no need to get offensive.

I apologise if I have upset people. The training methods individuals use are entirely their own choice.

Lets play nice and continue a lively debate without the claws coming out please

Hi Rachael,

Have you tried the clicker at all with your pup? If you need any info, let me know.

No I havent tried the clicker at all with Darcy!!!!

She used to walk really well on the lead but unfortunately I have been really naughty and let her have the flexi lead relaxed beasue we live in a very quiet area so she's used to relative freedom when walking even when on the lead.

Recently though I had to keep her on a fixed lead because we were in a busier area and she was a nightmare, constantly pulling

Would be willing to give the cliker training a try!!

Where do I begin though????

Hi Rachael,

Just sent you an email with a link to get you started.

Yapyap, a reference to "skin, blood and hair" on pinch (aka 'prong') collars can be found here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/204137.stm

Yapyap, did i say you lived in Brazil? I have a vet friend who visited there last year who saw lots of dogs on prong collars, so my statement stands :rolleyes:

I have seen blood on a dogs neck from over zealous use of a prong, yes. I know it was wrong use - but then there are trainers abroad who do advocate a serious jerk on a prong :(

I don't dish up dollops of food Yapyap, (only to muself of course, I do love my food :D ) and as I am teaching my dog both Working Trials and Agility, use a flat collar and she does what I ask without showing her food (except stuff i am still training her on) what are you blethering on about? Neither does she have a back, neck or other problem. I find that survey most questionable.

LIndsay

I agree Lindsay - prongs are a pretty extreme method of training, which I could never condone. Also no dog will pull if its in pain (ie from the sharp prongs), and a lot of people who use these methods openly admit that once their dog is in a normal collar it pulls again, so it doesn't "teach" the dog anything other than walktime is painful. Haltis/Gentle leaders are a good temporary measure, but again dont teach the dog not to pull. The only reliable method is to train your dog to heal (clicker training being a superb method).
Take care
Kathy
xxx

AAAaahhhhhhhhhh

Now I know what you mean by blood on the skin and hair, the case of deliberate cruelty by Essex police. I most certainly agree that people whoare deliberatly cruel with their dogs shoud be jailed, just think of the damage done by hanging them with collars, yanking them with pronng collars, possibly sharpened, hitting them with stick and as I remeber that case kicking the dogs as well as abuseing them with E collars.
Why blow me down just think how much damage could have been done if they hung them in halters, threw training discs at them burned them with matches......
Now it has been clarified and contextualized I quite agree with Lindsey, deliberate cruelty to dogs should be a jailing offence, no need to go to the web site below, read the context below;

Admin: copyright material removed terms of service. A link to the relevant article has already been posted.

Absolutely. Nobody is denying there are ignorant people and sadists who will abuse any equipment and cause pain and suffering to animals.

That doesn't mean we should make life easier for them by encouraging the use of this equipment, and in my opinion these collars are more open to abuse than others.

Jeangenie that is exactly what I feel - encouraging the use of this sort of equipment will certainly make life more simple for the ignorant and the sadistic. This is i feel the biggest problem.

The Essex handler was told he MUST kick his dog or he would be taken out of the section. He eventually agreed, and police dog Acer died in fact from a ruptured liver. His handler was placed in an intolerable position :( I remember the case well because i even wrote to the papers about it.

It shows too the ignorance of the instructor, because any dog facing up to its handler was punished next to the fence. Any dog would try to attack if it was being subjected to this sort of abuse; in the dog's eyes, it would be fighting for its life. The dog would be in a high state of arousal besides, and would find it hard to actually learn.

The use of these collars, prong and electric, will start to bring back force in training simply because people will feelit is "allowed"

I was talking to a friend on a list just this morning. She knew someone who had jus bought an electric collar, from mail order. No advice. She put it on her dog who was a neighbour's cat chaser and on a lowest level it had no effect. So she decided "what the hell" and whopped it up - the dog shrieked, raced into the house and wouldn't go out for 3 weeks - yes, 3 weeks!

When she did get it out (her carpets were totally soiled as the dog wouldnt' go outside to do its business) believe it or not, it STILL chased the cat. So she did what she should have done all along and mended her fence!!!

This is just one example of misuse, but as they and all sorts of other equipment is so easily abused, as you say Jeangenie, lets not make it easy for the ignorant.

Lindsay

I'm now confused. I have read on this site that Chris Lawrence of the RSPCA is in favour of electric devices. Yet reading here :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/209076.stm under the heading 'Long Term Harm' he clearly states that they are cruel.

And also here, too
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/744922.stm

Well yes if a dog is being hung by a prong collar and kicked it would definately have blood and fur on it,Duh. People like that should not own a pet or even work with a pet. My dog has NO BLOOD or any thing like that on his. A prong collar like I stated is not forever use, u r suppose to go back to a buckle. Which now I put a buckle and a prong on my dog and we r slowly getting back to a buckle.

Training collars should never be used on any dog before 6 months because their glands a swollen from teethin and u will just cause them a lot of pain.

A halti is to have a side pull just like a choker (its sideways) not pulling back because then u can cause a lot of damage. A halti is alot like a horse halter got control of the head got control of the dog. We tried this with Taz at 6 months cause I didn't want to put anything around his neck and taught him basic obedience.

I was in obedience class on a buckle never worked went to a choker then to a prong. U can't teach a dog anything if they will not listen. Nothing would get his attention, treats, toys, noise so we had to use what worked and this did. Mind u I did do alot of training at home but he never acted the same once out in public he was totally deaf. Now he is going through agility and maybe even flyball :)

I will never knock a training method until I know how it works. I too thought these were mean and wasn't sure about it but decided to give it a try and well it works for me. When I want to give him free range he is just on his buckle and we do alot of training with just the buckle so hopefully soon I will not need the prong. As long as training methods r used properly and not abused then that is what they are a training method, abused then they are a torture. Like I said people should be showed how to fit and properly use any type of training colar stores should not be allowed to just sell them. If a prong isn't fit right then it just rubs and u just hurts the dog, they should not be able to slide around. They should only be worn while training and come off once training has ended just like any other training collar.

ttfn :)

As you are all replying to this post i just wanted to ask something re collars,

I have asked before and since then i have had many different opinions. Should i use a check collar on my schnauzer pup? Perfect Puppy & many of you say no yet the local puppy trainer and the Schnauzer club of GB says yes. I dont know who to go with, i dont like the idea but i can see how it would work.

Any suggestions? Help!

Roxanne

Why do you feel you need to use one?
Check chains and prong collars are a poor replacement for proper training. If your training club is recommending a check chain, try another training club.
Clicker training is fab by the way :)

"If a prong isn't fit right then it just rubs and u just hurts the dog"

So if it's fitted right, they don't hurt? :( I dont get how you say they work then?
Haltis dont make them favour a side, if you swap sides each time you walk. I'd rather do that than cause them pain every time I took them out. Just my opinion though, what you do with your own dog is your own choice :)
I couldn't imagine causing Sky any more pain, she was quite obviously beaten before I got her. I'd rather she pulled on the lead for the rest of her life, than put her through more than she's already been through.

A prong collar is suppose to fit snug but not to snug. If it slides from side to side then u r causing it to rub and then it also doesn't work. I put it on and can still put my fingers under it. I hook and unhook from the side. What happens when it is on if the dog pulls then it puts a little presher, dog doesn't pull no presher at all, this way the dog corrects them self. Being on a buckle and always pulling can cause a lot of damage to the dogs. U can't train a dog if they will not listen to u at all, nothing worse then having no control over ur dog. He was well trained at home but the minute we left the home it was like he had no training, thats when we went to obedience school and I did try other training collars before the prong. Now we r starting to go back to a buckle cause he now listens, I can now pretty much do his whole agility class on a buckle and when we go for walks pretty much now I can use the buckle. Harness just cause dogs to pull I tried that too with no luck. I only have one dog on a prong and will soon be just back to a buckle.

I had one of my dogs on a choker cause I was told to but didn't think she needed it cause she walks perfectly at heel, so I left that obedience class and never went back.

I tried it on my arm short sleeve and so did my hubby u just get some presher from the prong and thats all. U don't favor a side with a prong the leash hook is at the back of the neck. If it caused any pain at all I would not use it on my dog. When doing a correction with a halti it is a side ways correction not pull back or u could really do alot of damage to the dog same with a choker. I've seen a lot of people pull back and give a pop for a correction with these and now that is causing a lot of pain. Using these on a smaller dog means u have to get down to give the proper sideways correction where people don't they just pull back on the animal. That is was makes me mad is people that go out to buy these (any type of training collar)and think that will train the dog, but actually it is them that need the training to know how to use them properly.

Its not for u and that is ur choice I'm not telling people to go out and get these. I am saying is find out what works best for ur dog and don't knock and critise people for the training methods they use as long as it is humane. I really think people need to be eduacated on different types of collars and the pet stores should not be allowed to sell them until they are properly fitted and no how to use them and also to make sure that they are the proper training collar for their dog. Maybe training collars should only be able to purchased after going through an obedience class and not from a store this way they will find what works best for their dog.

ttfn (:))

I agree, these things should only be available through vets or qualified trainers (if at all), certainly not to the general public.

I don't know many vets capable of giving training advise.

They can at least warn about the potential for harm and repair the damage.

You aint got a good vet then ;)

Why would a 'bit of pressure' stop a dog pulling? It's seems much more likely to me that it is pain that is stopping them.

I asked the RSPCA what was their official stance on electric dog collars, and pinch/prong collars. I just received the following reply:

"The RSPCA disapproves of any training method which causes pain, and believes that training should be achieved by a properly structured programme based on reward only. You may be interested to know that pinch collars are rarely used in the UK now. Their use has been banned by all the reputable training organisations including the police because they cause pain and may cause long-term injury to the neck."

I'm glad your training instructor wasn't advocating their use!
:)

I agree - it's only right that these collars be banned. Every time I hear someone advocating them they contradict themselves ("When a dog pulls it gives them pain so they stop" and then "prong collars dont hurt at all"). I think they were just a step further by the choke chain supporters when they worked out that choke chains dont work either! *lol*

Hi KathyM,

I AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thank God I HATE choke/prong/electric collars. These things are created by people who think that aggression and bullying is the way to train their dogs. It's always a quick-fix that people want these days and these sometimes do give a quick-fix, for a short length of time or completely traumatise the dog for life!!!!!!

I think all these "aids" should be banned completely, I know the prong has been now for a while, thank goodness. I would love to try these things out on some of the owners and see how they like it!!!!!!!! :0 :)

manda
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