hey! I'm gonna be looking to buy a puppy in the next two months...but I was so young when my last dog was a puppy I need some advise!! Just wanting to check exactly what age they should get injections and things... I'll see a vet but I just want to get a rough idea to plan ahead! (miss organised :))
Also, what age would you say its best to get a female dog 'done' ? and would you say this would be the best thing to do if im not planning on breeding her?
Im looking for Labrador breeders in the North East as well if anyone has any info!
Thanks

I had my puppy innoculated at 8 weeks and again at 12 weeks but some people wait till 16 weeks and just have one jab. As to getting a bitch spayed, I personally don't like having them done unless totally necessary, or if there is an entire male living with you aswell, as it is a big operation unlike getting a dog castrated, just keep her indoors all the while she is in season. But if you really don't want spots of blood on the floor then I think (not entirley sure) that it is any age from about 6 months.

Hi Its me (registered now)
I dont like the idea of sending a puppy for an operation without good reason cos I'll get really upset! But I havent got a clue about seasons or how often they are? and can you not walk your 'bitch' while they are in season without having dogs following you??
My dog (which was put down at the age of 17! about 3 years ago...)never had seasons to my knowledge so im assuming we got her spayed when I was young enough to not notice.
I would prefer a female puppy to a male though so I'm a bit confused!
Have a male hamster so need a bit of girl power in the house :)
what breed of dog do you have??

Season's can vary but in my experience they are either once a year or every 6 months. It is best to keep her indoors and exercise her in the garden while in season otherwise you will have a trail of dogs behind you as you are walking :)
I own an Australian Shepherd male who is 16 weeks old (you can see a picture of him in the owners section of Australian Shepherds using the search feature if you want) and my parents have 2 Grand Basset Griffon Vendeen (which are shown by me and my dad), a GSD, a Bernese Mountain Dog and a Mongeral.

I have six bitches none of which are spayed. Walking them is not a problem, just keep away from areas where you know there will
be other dogs. Keep her on a lead when in season. We have never been 'followed home' after being out walking. The regularity of the season depends on the bitch two of ours only come in every 12-15 months. I think having a bitch spayed just because you dont want the
mess is wrong, and if that is the case then maybe you should consider getting a dog. This is a big operation that shouldnt be done IMHO unless it is absolutely necessary.

my vet would very much disagree with u (and he's not in it for the £), he says research shows that spaying bitches prevents various problems in later life and unless considering breeding very much recommends it.

a few years ago, the best time to spay was xxx weeks (after the first season) however he advised that research shows that it is best done before their first season.

i have had all my bitches spayed but not to prevent a mess!! that didn't even come into the equation.

ps: might add that many new puppy owners think they are being responsible in getting their dogs done, we all are only too aware of the hundreds of unwanted dogs in rescue homes

I totally agree and have had two bitches spayed before the first season to prove it so I couldn't have put it better myself! If you are not a breeder, why put your bitch through seasons, even the first one?
J

So you put youre bitches through a major op "to prove a point". What do you mean "put your bitch through seasons", for goodness sake its a natural occurance.

Had my puppies inoculated at 8 at 12 weeks. If you are going to spay most people recommend letting them have a season first. My youngest (10 month Lab) had her season at 6 months and will be spayed in August. Her Mum's seasons were every 5 months so they can vary from animal to animal. When in season I don't take mine out at all, becides play in the garden and a quick trip around the field out the back after I've really checked no one is about. Sorry don't know any breeders where your looking but I'm sure someone on the board does or there may be some listed on the board already.

Good luck with finding your new play mate. Keep us posted.

Debbie :)

thanks for the advise... still unsure what to do about spaying but im such a worrier I'll probably chicken out doing it!
I guess its a matter of opinion whether its a good thing to do or not...
I still need a good name!
Couldnt think of a cute name for a hamster and ended up being called Hammy so dont let me end up with a dog called doggie or something!!! hehe
Sascha, Sadie and Molly are the cutest ones i've seen so far, I cant believe exactly how many dog name sites there are!

Anyone had any serious problems with puppy training or have you found it quite straight forward???

Hi
I have a slightly different perspective, I did not originally have my Tervueren bitch spayed as I was told they were allergic to the anaesthetic, found ou tlater that herlitter sister did actually die under anaesthetic.

So I avoided it and when she was inseason sprayed her bottom with some sort of bitch spray and walked her at aboout 5.30a.m.
I rarely had trouble with other male dogs but many did show an interest. No problem with mess in the house as she was very clean, but as has been said that shud be the least of anyone's reasons for spaying or not spaying.

Then at 10 and a half she seemed a bit quiet, had a funny discharge, the vet tested but did not find a raised level of white antibodies (think that's right). But she was definitely ill so back we went and found out she had pyometra. I nearly died on the spot. What to do, she would die if I left it, but could die if she was ooperated on, and the last thing she would know was the vet, not me.

I very nearly had her put to sleep in my arms. But I opted for the spaying and she recovered well, and lived for another 6 years.

I believe anaesthetics are very good now, if you go ahead have a chat about that aspect, I bellieve tha t one called Isoflurane is very good as it gets out of the system very quickly and doesnt affect theliver.

I think i will now have all my future bitches spayed, because of my bad experience and because I would always worry that they were on the verge of a pyo.

Best wishes
Lindsay

Lindsay is right in saying modern anaesthetics are a lot safer than in earlier years, also Labradors are not a high-risk dog unlike some other breeds. I feel it wise not to spay until after the first season which can occur with Labs any time between 6 and 12 months. Vets like to spay approximately half way between seasons, so you’re looking at 9 to 18 months depending on when she comes in for the first time. If I walk my Labs when in season I NEVER walk from the house! I put them in the car, take them down the road a little way then walk them (On the lead only) from there. That way the scent trail is broken. Doing this I have never had problems with followers.

Regards John

PS for Jay, if you find another "J" posting on this board, it's my Alta ego who occasionally posts when I turn my back for a minute!

I AM NOT HIS ALTA EGO, HE IS MINE I am the greatest! He is nothing! He is less than nothing! He is a pimple on the face of humanity!!!!!

J

Shut up J!

John ;)

Yea gods, the malt has taken over! Reaction to the election, I guess!

Jo

There is a missive winging it's way to you even as we speak Jo :D :D

John

*CHUCKLES* at J ;-)

Twilly xxxxxx

John
Can I reiterate what I said earlier about walking bitches in heat and not being followed home. My husband has kept bitches for over twenty years and has never had a dog follow him when walking an in season bitch. Maybe it is as he sensibly kept them in for the period between 12 - 16 days but the rest of the season their walks from home were as normal. One other aspect of this is that the bitches do not wet near the house and only when out in the fields, off the lead unless other dogs are about. It is all about being careful and ALWAYS aware of what is happening in the neighbourhood of ones dogs.
As for spaying without need, which is widely advocated, is this not like a woman having a hysterectomy as a means of birth control?

Crikey Longdog ..... you have been very lucky then :-) or maybe you just live in an area where there are not to many latch key / stray dogs.

I also feel that if you are not "planning" to breed from your bitch then it would be wise to spay.

Twilly xx

There's one thing certain, I would not walk most of the labs I've owned from the house when in season! With the exception of "The Flower" they don't exactly drip, more RUN! Maybe it's in the line I have but their seasons were always very heavy! I know different breeds and lines can vary enormously also as a very old timer I definatly go back to the old "Latch Key" days when if a bitch went out in season she would be followed back by 20 suitors.

Regards, John

I have never seen any strays in my area athough I am sure there maybe the odd one. If one of the bitches is in season then she stays on the lead if there are any dogs about (which are usually with their owners) although, I do tend to walk them early morning to avoid other people if I can, as they love to free run and other peoples dogs are not always as well behaved as your own!!!! I Have never had any problems what-so-ever. Our lines do not usually have very heavy seasons. They would go scatty if they were cooped up the whole way through their season!!!!
I wouldn't consider spaying unless it was absolutely required and only for medical reasons.

No it is NOT the same as a woman having a hysterectomy as a means of birth control! The trouble is, some humans relate animal matters to themselves. Some men hate the thought of their pet being castrated even on medical advice (!) and some women, Longdog, compare a spaying to a hysterectomy. Yes it is the same operation but you can't compare the things that you would do to/for your dog to the things you would do to/for yourself or your family. You don't feed them the same, you don't train them the same and you DO NOT use birth control in the same way - although I am sure there are many women who would opt for hysterectomy as birth control, given the chance. :-)

J

'FowlerIsGod' - I forgot to email my password to home so had to register a new name!!
Freeway - which dog is yours??? :)

Some people say that both dogs and bitches are more calm once spayed...is this likely?...

I used to live in the North West of England (Cheshire) and have found loads of clubs and breeders for labradors there! unfortunately i live a bit further away now and i've found a labrador club in Durham but no breeders. Theres nowt on the KC website and nothing on search engines...only ones i've seen are people advertising in the Ad-Mag and classified sections of newspapers..

To spay or not to spay, that is the question! In the past I’ve always tried to stay clear of this debate but today I’ll state my side. If you are a breeder then the answer is obvious! If not then the question is, are you ever likely to want to be? If the answer is no then you have a decision to make. I have kept bitches for 30 years now. The reason I keep bitches is because I prefer the “bitch mentality” which is considerably different to the dogs I used to own! From that you can deduce I’m a doddering old fool! I have never bred a litter for a variety of reasons, lack or quality, health problems and pressure of work being the reasons at various times. I have spayed also for a variety of reasons. My first two were spayed late in life after developing pyometra (the first) and diabetes (the second). At this age, both were over 10 years old, the operation is a whole lot harder on the bitch than it is on a young dog. My third bitch developed epilepsy at 18 months so at this point I decided to spay early. Not as an easy option for birth control, but after nearly loosing my first two bitches the risk seemed to warrant it. Beth and Lucy were both spayed at just over 2 years old. Anna, (“The Flower”) is now 3 years old and although I would love a litter from her and have had enquires about the possibility of puppies I cannot see any way I could contemplate it at this time, in fact I have my name on a puppy at the moment. (Not only has it not been born yet, it hasn’t even been conceived you!!!!!) I will however keep Annabelle entire for the time being to see if my circumstances change. Unplanned litters do happen, the dog rescues have bursting doors to prove it and although spaying is taking a sledge hammer to crack a nut, other things should have a bearing on your decision.
As to when to spay, if your decision comes down on that side, then I stand firmly on the side of allowing a puppy time to mature before taking that step. As I said before, I wouldn’t contemplate such a step before the first season and if that was early then I would prefer to wait for another season. Coping with a bitch is never too much trouble for me but that is not the whole answer!
As to whether they are calmer afterwards, depending on the reason for for them being other than calm the answer is, in some cases a dog may be improved in temperment but in my experience the same rarely holds true with bitches.

Regards, John

For John: Can you please explain why you think bitches shouldn't be spayed until after the first season? I have not heard a good enough reason to wait! "To let them mature" doesn't seem to be a good one! Why would they stop maturing once they are spayed? Or if you are talking about internally, why would you let the uterus etc mature and then take it away? Just trying to understand! :-)

yeah...I've never understood the reasons behind these things...maybe once somebody mentions they think it was better to wait it becomes common knowledge that its the best thing to do - without any medical reason??
All goes way over my head...

Does it make any difference to KC whether or not your bitch (i hate saying that word lol) is intact?

Taking the old philosophy that 7 years of a dogs life is equal to 1 human year and allowing for the fact that you would have to spay between 4 and 6 months old to operate at the optimum time this would be equivalent to a child of two and a half to three years old. I'm saying that a bit tongue in cheek because modern thinking does not now believe the difference in ageing is evenly spaced and the first year of a dog’s life is much longer than the 7 years previously stated! Years ago no vet would perform this operation until a bitch was at lest two years old but it is now performed earlier by some vets. Of course the bitch carries on growing just as normal, nothing could stop that happening! What can, and I stress, can happen is that the bitch does not appear to grow up mentally. I can see no good reason to subject such a young bitch to what is after all, a serious operation.

As far as the KC is concerned, if you enter a show the bitch MUST be marked as neutered in the catalogue. Originally shows were not the recreational gathering they are now. They were the "Shop Window" for the breeders and as such, why would anyone want to show a spayed bitch or castrated dog?

John

Hi
Just wanted to agree with Johnin that it is as much for mentaly maturuty as physical. I have for instance heard of pups being spayed early and they have not got the confidence to wee outside their own premises as they are still mentally a baby.

I believe too (I think) that it can affect the growth plates.

I believe many vets started spaying earlier too avoid unwanted llitters, I think it startedin the uS because of all the unwanted dogs oout there.

Best wishes
Lindsay

Hi - I don't own any bitches myself and as I prefer dogs, I probably never will BUT i grew up with a gorgeous border collie bitch. After I left home she became quite ill one day (I won't bore you with the vet story, suffice to say he didn't diagnose properly) and the poor thing died during the night - pyometra (spelling?). A few years ago our neighbours had a border collie bitch too. I saw it one day and she didn't appear "herself". Her owner thought she had a sore back, but I cautiously (as she was someone you couldn't TELL) suggested that I really thought this bitch should see a vet. I could just tell she was ill. The next day I found out that she had had an emergency operation because again, pyometra. It is fatal if left untreated and can kill very quickly if the womb infection bursts and infects the blood stream. I have seen it on TV vet programmes too and these bitches are really seriously ill. I would definitely have a bitch spayed because the older they get the more the risk of this happening. It is a major operation but as said by Lindsay, anaesthetics are alot safer now - but there is always a risk. I hope you enjoy your new pup and take any advice from your vet. Oh, and by the way, I have discovered that guinea-pigs and rabbits also suffer from this womb infection as they age - normally death results. Great - I have 5 female GPs!!! I am worrier about my pets too. Worry about the anaesthetic but then do you regret it later on if she does develop pyometra? They can bring dogs out of anaesthic quite quickly too if a problem appears to be developing with them. Good luck.

Thanks shirley, sorry to hear about your dog... its like losing a family member isnt it? :(
I think the first thing i'll do is see a vet about innoculations and talk about spaying with him/her...

I always think of the way my 'bitch' used to shake in panic when we took it for check ups at the vet...they never seem to recover from bad experiences :(

tough decision to make - whether to make your puppy go through an operation..especially when you have the final say in the matter...who knows if dogs could talk..?

I think it would help if we had some idea of just how many bitches get this pyo; for instance if it was say over 60 percent then that would b e agood reason to spay, if it is say 5 per cent then perhaps owners are much more justified in not spaying. Does anyone know any figures on pyo occurences and fatalities?

Best wishes
Lindsay

It isn't just to avoid pyrometra that vets suggest spaying bitches that you don't plan to breed off. Early spaying is also supposed to prevent mammary tumours.On the other side of the coin and alot rarer now than once was spaying can also be a cause of urinary incontinance so it is not a easy or straight forward decision to make.Yes discuss it fully with your vet but also bear in mind he stands to make some money if you do decide to spay. It just depends on your relationship with him and how much you trust his advice. Hope you find your ideal pup and enjoy her .Best Wishes Gillian

I have kept bitches all my life - 47 years - probably about 50 in all, of gundog and terrier breeds and only one has ever got pyo and none have had mammary or other cancers. Yes, I agree pyo is a potentially fatal condition, but as a bitch owner I am aware of the symptoms, which are easy to spot once you know what to look for. The bitch concerned was unusually a maiden and it followed her first season, which is not common. Because i take the trouble to find out about the symptoms, the bitch was in no danger and was spayed immediately. As far as cancer is concerned, some breeds seem to be much more susceptable to contracting cancer than others. If I owned a susceptable breed, then I may have considered it. I really do wonder whether those that spay on their vets advise re: possible future health problems are actually very relieved that it is PC to do so because they cant be bothered with caring for a bitch in season and its a handy excuse. Its a good earner for the vets, they also seem to "recommend" Hills Science Diet for EVERY dog, whether it needs a a special diet or not. Spaying can cause varying degrees of incontinence, which is much more inconveniant then the odd season, and it also ruins their coats, making them flluffy and un-manageable. They also tend to pile on the weight after spaying which is as much of a health risk as anything else. If yu dont want to be bothered with season for goodness sake GET A MALE>

Yes, get a male ...... but get it castrated !!!! lol

Twilly ;-) (sorry, couldn't resist)

We'er not talking two house bricks here are we?

J :D

Think it might be a bit differcult to do it with just one brick J ;-)

Twilly xxx

Hi Twills, Cheers, I agree. LOL.X

Westie Lover - whilst others are looking at this from the human point of view, you seem to be looking at it from the breeder's point of view. The average dog owner is NOT a breeder and wants a dog to be a companion and member of the family. As you put it, they don't want to "be bothered" with a season. What is so wrong with that? In SOME breeds there MAY be changes to the coat but there is no reason at all why the bitch should "pile" on the weight. That only happens if they are overfed after the operation. The operation in itself would not make the dog put on weight and if you are as experienced as you say you should know that. Why should someone GET A DOG if they want a bitch. Dogs have different personalities!

We had the same years ago with one of our Bull Terrier bitches. She developed Pyo after her first season, had to be spayed and lived till she was 13. She was the only bitch that we had that got Pyo (to my knowledge) in over 25 years.

I bow to your greater knowledge Westie Lover, you have 17 years and 40 bitches greater experience than me but I do not breed! I said earlier, I keep bitches because I prefer bitches. Maybe my Labs are not very healthy but I have had more than my fair share of problems. To say, "Keep dogs" is to eliminate 50% of the canine race! I also trust my vet! That’s the only reason I have been using the same vet for 46 year, not all my life but the greater part of it.

With respect, John

Hi John, Sorry to upset the apple cart yet again I just dont like manipulating dogs and playing God with them, though I know some would say that breeding is playing God, but if it were'nt for breeders there would be no puppies!
And its 47 years not 17!! Seriously though I would be very interested to know what proportion of unspayed bitches do get pyo/mammary cancer, has anyone done a study on it?
Please dont think that i feel I have "superior knowlegde" I just feel strongly about this subject, and vets "emotionally blackmailing" new/novice owners to have it done or else!! If ever I want advice about Labs you would be my first port of call. No offence taken I hope, none was intended to anyone. X

' .. manipulating dogs and playing god with them'

FACT.. Breeders do manipulte (play god with) Dogs !

' ... if it were'nt for breeders there would be no puppies!'

FACT Dogs have reproduced for centuries without the interference of breeders !

Quite right "Twills"
Westie Lover, (and this is just one example) the menopause is also a natural occurance but how many women have medical intervention to help them cope with that? Also do you know how your bitch is feeling during a season?

I must say that I do believe that my bitches suffer when in season. One of mine on her first season was in so much pain, hunch backed and howling that I eas down the vet at midnight it was awful. They get extremely stressed just before a season including severe mood swings and I'm pretty convinced that they get pains just like we do. I also had a bitch that had a pyometra at 2 years of age. I agree that vets should give owners the pluses and minuses of such an operation and should not 'force' people to have it done but personally I think it is for the best. I just wish the NHS would see my point of view and have me done since I have been asking for from the age of 18!
Bec

Don't worry Westie Lover, I may get steamed up at times but I soon calm down. I said in my first posting on this thread that I have in the past not posted on this theme and I should have left it that way. I believe there is no hard and fast rules on this subject or for that matter almost anything else to do with dogs. The variables are too great. We all have different circumstances and desires. Our dogs are not all "Breeding Material", and if a bitch is not up to standard I see no reason why it should be left entire! I know the same operation can cause psychological problems in a woman but believe that is because the woman dwells on the significance of the operation whereas a bitch would have no comprehension of the effects of the operation so does not have the same thoughts.

Just the ramblings of an old man!

Regards, John

Stop selling yourself short John !
I for one enjoy hearing your " Ramblings " ;-)

Hi John
Yes and so do I. The thing is, we all want what is best for our dogs, and of course we all have our own experiences.
For instance I agree with Bec about the pains, Tasha defiitely had bad pains from the age of about 8 onwards, just for a few hours. She would hunch up and lie underneath the window seat and be thoroughly miserable for a while, then would b efine.
As I said before, i would probably spay because I will never forget how I felt when she was in danger of her life, yet for many years I didn't and that felt right at the time. It's good to discuss all these things because then those who ask will see just how problematical it is and think carefully before making an informed decision.

Best wishes
lindsay

Phew, thanks for that John. I promise I'll never post on this subject again, I get soo MAD. LOL. I do wonder why, though, when this is a site aimed at pedigree dog owners (I think) that people get so hot under the collar about breeders, I dont JUST breed, I love my dogs to bits. I only ever breed a litter when I want to keep a puppy for myself to hopefully show in the future. My girls just get more affectionate and lively and more hungry when in season, and would have thought these signs indicate that they are actually feeling very well!! I have never observed them being in any discomfort. Perhaps bitches that do show a lot of discomfort, do have something wrong inside, and maybe it should be investigated.

You may be onto something there Westie Lover, as I think my girl had pains when a couple of seasons before her pyo.

I THINK, not sure though. I just felt they were like period pains really and she was Ok as soon as she started, no problem.

I remember most o fthe time she was absoltely fine in season and very happy and full of herself, she also became endearingly bossy for just a few days, we both had a sense of humour over it and it jsut made me love her all the more!!

Best wishes
lndsay

WL, I don't think it was in any doubt that you love your dogs !

I for one, am not against breeders , but I do get annoyed when they make such sweeping statements and " ... for goodness sake GET A MALE " just touched a nerve :-)

Twilly.