Has anyone found a head halter to fit a german shorthaired pointer?? I tried the Halti but it rode up in to his eyes. I am trying as hard as I can with heelwork but when time is short and I need to get somewhere I need a little extra help!!

Try the dogmatic. They are fantastic - a little more expensive, but definitely worth the money. The smallest size didn't fit my whippet girl, so after lots of communication back and forth they made one that fits her perfectly!

http://www.dogmatic.org

Wendy

I agree with Dogmatic they are my number one choice ..they are excellent ..took me three goes of buying , then sending back etc to get the right one but their communication is excellent

Melody :)

The gentle leader is similar but adjustable over the nose :)
Lara x

HI - the gentle leader is a better fit for our dobe ,as you can tighten it under the chin it doesn't ride up into his eyes
Liz :)

Hi I thought this article might help in decision making, personaly even looking at them reminds me of a medievil torture instrument, which they were;
Kind permission to reproduce granted by the author, JoJo.

There has been research and in a nutshell it is the fact that it applies a compression to one side of the neck and an extension to the other side which causes long term damage to both muscle and spinal chord.
They tend to create more problems than a Choker.

I do not think dogs pulling on a lead is safe, its not safe at all. Dogs show little or no sense of choking on a normal collar (as seen in dogs gagging as the pull) it seems to be something that they ignore.
But with collars they do not have a sense of their head and consequently their senses being forced into position they retain the sense of what humans would call head freedom, nevertheless a lot of damage is caused by dogs pulling on collars and leads.
Jerks and pulls etc from Halties probably vibrate on fewer parts of the skeleton and also Halties do not thud on the trachea either.
The old original Haltie is not seen much anymore, in its place a new alternative has become popular, but was the Haltie safe? And is the latest version any better.
The Halties contempory equivalent, Canac, rides up under the eye the same as the older Halties did and rubes the fragile skin around that area, anyone doubting this just take notice next time you see them, not just one but take notice of several.
When they are first put on most dogs (not all) try to get away from them.
Once the Haltie is eventually forced on, the head is forced into a position as the dog tries to escape, even at this early point such attempts by the dog are manifestations of sheer panic.
If the owner then continues to hold still whilst the dog twists and attempts to escape from the trap the dog is experiencing the owner not as its trusted friend but as someone who, out of the blue, has ‘turned on it’ for NO reason the dog is capable of understanding, that in itself can terrify a dog on top of the fact the relationship is not a strong bond to need one.
Once the owner has forced the Halter type on the dog starts jumping around in panic, a dog does not have the intelligence to stop and think “This is for my own good” all the dog knows is that its once trusted friend has turned on it, as no command has been broken it cannot associate it with unwanted behaviour of its own.
Eventually the dog is forced into submission.
A dog challenging its owner for some reason would naturally submit at a point at which the dog felt its pack leader (owner) had overcome it, it would not resent that nor would it make the dog distant in the relationship but the act of putting a Haltie on a dog for the first time is not the act of a pack leader asserting rank over a rebellious dog, it is an out of the blue attack to the dogs perception of its, until then, secure position.
Occasional challenges to rank are normal in dogs and in the dogs restricted way of understanding its life and its world ‘no undue behaviour’ would have been carried out by its owner whom it had challenged and whom had corrected it.
A halter type placed on the dog, for no reason the dog can work out, does not fall under the category ‘pack rank behaviour’ and it most certainly does not fall under the category ‘trusted friend ‘ behaviour. Dogs accept corrections if they have knowingly deliberately misbehaved but a Halter type is a punishment without reason, to the dogs mind.
Putting a total head restraint on for the first time, often just as the dog is excited and pleased when it realizes it’s going walkies with its trusted owner, causes an instant breakdown of trust (as we call it) the dog has no idea whatsoever why all this is happening and why such a punishment is coming from its friend and companion, there are no broken commands to associate the punishment with.
This sort of head entrapment causes claustrophobia in some humans and a state of anxiety in a dog, the reason the anxiety occurs is because the dog has no means of interpreting this particular human behaviour.
The head of a dog is, emotionally, the most important part of its experience of itself, its most important senses are in its head, dogs are highly dependant on smell and use it as a means of recognition and identification, most vets who care about their patients let them smell the piece of cotton wool, the scissors, the rubber glove etc etc thereby putting the dog at ease before tampering with them with the cotton wool, suddenly the freedom of movement and the availability of scenting is gone.
The dog normally looks to identify its environment as well as scent identification, with a Halter type restraint, that’s gone its muzzle is jerked back to suit the owners minuet by minuet needs, not the dogs, it is restricted to a view decided by the owner. The only form of defence a dog has is in its head, suddenly all the defence capability is forced away from the dog. This process may take several minuets for some owners and dogs on the first attempt, but a few seconds of this unexpected attack by its trusted friend can cause a lifetimes damage.
The most traumatic part of all with these barbaric instruments is that the head is the part of the dogs body where natural affection and retribution are centred.
In the litter the beginning of its natural training starts, if the pup carries out a behaviour detrimental to the group as a whole the bitch INSTANTLY bears down on its HEAD area with vocalisations and physical threats (teeth showing etc) the fear is beneficial to start behaviour correction and the head area is the receptor.
As soon as the pup responds (often by squeals) she licks it profusely, comforting it and giving the reassurance it needs. In other words she delivers a negative stimulus to produce positive behaviour, this is how dogs learn, as well as much of human behaviour, one or two repetitions of the negative stimulus, dependant on the individual pup, or punishment and the pup learns which behaviours are or are not beneficial to itself, all this reward punishment system is centred around the head.
The fear the dog experiences is a fear which is beneficial to the dog and to the well being and harmony of the pack, in the same way fear is beneficial to humans, which is why it exists, no species would survive without the fight or flight drive.
In the case of the introduction of a Haltie there is no way the dog can have natural understanding, in its own canine way, of what is happening. It is natural to pull away from something but in the case of the Haltie the entire head is trapped as well as its body, only panic threshing can occur.
Always when we initiate affection to the dog it’s centred around the head, when dogs living together greet each other the acceptance is often head and mouth contact between them, when a dog wants to submit it lowers its head, when a dog wants to show dominance it holds its head erect and much more. All this and MUCH more is suddenly forced away from the dog by the person who, until this traumatic event, it trusted more than anything in the world, all that, gone and the dog bows its head in submission.
I accept that the use of Halter type head constraints are often done without malice, without bad intention and most of the time purely through lack of knowledge (innocence) but they are nothing less than a training substitute, a trained dog does not pull on a lead, it willingly obeys the owner who it sees as its natural and loved pack leader.
The physical dangers are more obvious, if anyone walks for only a few moments with their heads turned to the side, the neck will soon start aching, try it day in day out for a week and see how your neck feels then, add to that the occasional UNEXPECTED jerk from the muzzle area which again forces the entire head to jolt sideways, that in itself will make the dog tense its muscles, a few jerks and the dog will keep its muscles tense for longer and longer periods. In humans this same muscle tension in the neck causes headaches, what does it do to the dog? How much damage to the vertebrate happens over a prolonged period?
Above all Halter types have no training purpose whatsoever, they are a substitute for training and have no other effect than force the dog to walk at heel as a lazy option to training.
A case has been put forward to DEFRA against them it now remains to be seen if they get banned.
I once ran training courses and banned Halties as soon as I saw them, I had also never allowed chokers .
Objections have been made to DEFRA about them and currently the current legal status is under review. (DEFRA is a government body and gives the government advice on these matters)
Haltie type head cages have been used on humans centuries ago, always as a punishment or torture device, lets face it what would happen if a child were put in such a device to stop it toddling in front?
If anyone would like a second opinion, this time by a behaviourist, then try Suzanne Clothiers article at,
www.flyingdogpress.com
'It is only when we view the whole can we can see the flaws '

I am sorry but I would have to strongly disagree.

Head halters are one of the best pieces of equipment to help people manage a strong dog. There are many frail and elderly people who have been on the brink of giving up on their dog who now find walking them a pleasure rather than a chore.

Of course most dogs react negatively to having the restraint imposed, as it works. I have had the same reaction from an 11 week old puppy that I bought when putting a collar and lead on it. Usuyally the halter is tried on an older puppy or dog, and as tyhe d0og is older it reacts more strongly to this strange thing. When I put a collar and lead on an 8 month old pup on holiday that had never had one on in it's life, as it had never been outside it's kennel and run it reacted in exactly the same way as a dog haveing a head collar put on for the first time.

It is important that people understand they must never jerk, only guide the dogs head.

Head halters and Bridles have been used on most large domestic animals for eons, as without them it would be impossible to exert the needed control on these larger animals.

The other advantage they have is that the owner can easily break the eye contact neccesary with dog to dog confrontations.

I must say that the Canac Gentle Leader is the prefered type at our classes frm experience with the diferent types of dog that use them, as they are adjustable , therefore minimising the ride up factor, and keeping the point that is being guided under th chin.

The difference in effect and fit and of a horse and dog is different. The halter on a horse sits well down on the long, bony part of the muzzle, far away from the eyes, not just under the edge of his eyes. With most dogs, the halter nose piece comes just under the inside corners of the eyes. Most animals have thin skin and nerves in this area. The structure of the canine head does not compare in application to haltering on horses and above all the dogs emotional and practical pet relationship is entirely different to that of a horse and man and there is no comparison between the pack drive of a dog and that of a horse and its owner.
I have very rarely seen a dog with any halter type restraint not rubbing very close to its eyes and that is only in dogs I see as they pass, I feel it is safe to suppose that even those dogs will have it rubbing under the eyes at some points of its useage.
I agree that it makes it easier for old ladies and owners in general, but where does that leave the dogs welfare in order of priorities?

It leaves the dog exercised and socialised instead of confined to yard or kennel

Barbara- I agree with you -I use a gentle leader on my dobe -it is not a forever thing it is a piece of training equipment,and it works
To the original poster ( I'm sorry i can't scroll up to your name )
I have never had any problems with the genle leader and others have recommended the dog-matic ,I have never had any great struggle to get it on and there has not been any great panic attacks at the sight of it either ,the majority of the time i walk my dog now on an ordinary collar and lead ,so it does work and is a great training tool ,use whatever you feel fits best for you and your dog
Liz :)

I have a dogmatic on order - to the poster of the article above, I have no intention of "forcing" the halter on, nor of jerking or yanking Roscoe around. Thank you for all the constructive comments from others - surely having a pleasant walk whilst wearing a halter is better than mummy getting frustrated at her pulling puppy on the end of an uncomfortable choking conventional collar. Hopefully the day will come that I do not have to use it at all but in the meantime for days out/occasions when I need to get somewhere without having the time to treat it as a formal training session, the halter will only help develop the bond and trust my dog and I share.

Hi Bagpuss,
I used a Halti (it was a while back, when they were new on the market) on one of my dogs when I had my baby - I didn't want to be pushing a pram and have a pulling dog!!
I got her used to it over a few days by putting it on her for her meals, and before I gave her a treat - she was quick on the uptake and learned that nice things happen when you're wearing your headcollar!
She only had to wear it for a few weeks till she learned to walk nicely beside the pram, and then she went back to her normal collar and lead. As a training aid it worked extremely well for us. :)

I like the idea of getting him to have his dinner with it on - I don't want him to think he is being punished by wearing it.

Hi Bagpuss,

How is the heel work coming on? I seem to remember putting up a few suggestions with regard to it. I would be interested to know if any of my advice is useful!! :D

Regards

Mark

You'll be pleased with the Dogmatic I'd be willing to bet:) I used a Gentle Leader and was overall happy with it, but when the dogmatic was recommended to someone else on here I had a look and was pretty sold on it - so we've got them now and they do work very well and look nice on the dog as well.

The dogs don't like them - they'd prefer to be able to pull LOL - but they know they have to wear it so stop their playing up quickly and get on with the walk. Chelsea at one time had gone from needing it to being good on a regular collar, but we got lax and she pulls again, so we're back to square one. It is definitely possible to use as a short term training tool - just keep it up out of the way as they may want to chew on the 'evil face thing' if they find it around.

Best of luck

Wendy

It was all useful, thanks Mark - this was the reply I put on screaming puller - it is slowly working, we had a good session twirling around the church carpark yesterday! It's the longer/all day sessions where I need extra assistance.

Thanks for all the advice Mark - I think the first thing we need to concentrate on is teaching him to "heel" - der, stupid I know! We have been saying "don't pull" which I guess is difficult to understand. Perhaps starting again with a new command will help. The walking in circles is a good idea too. He doesn't seem to respond to food or toys as he gets SOOOOOOO excited - I'll try more variation and walking through the park on lead instead as he seems to have got in to the routine of pulling like mad and screaming more in a particular place - I took him out for a lead-only walk yesterday on his Kumfi stop pull harness and he was absolutely fine (just looks like a bit of a baby with it on).

Will persevere.....

Terri

If the dog is not pulling because the head halter is doing it's job then how can it be putting pressure on one side of the neck. If the dog is still pulling while you have a head collar on then it's NOT working or doing it's job properly. If dogs are getting these injuries it's because the people using them are using them incorrectly.

Also - my dog walks on BOTH sides of me therefore IF there was any pulling it would even out. HOWEVER I re-state that IF USED CORRECTLY this CANNOT happen.

Wendy

Hi,

Our last doberman had a Halti and it made life much simpler when walking him. He never pulled again when using the Halti.

Our present dog is on a check chain and unless it is up under his ears he still pulls - despite my other half objecting I have decided after having a horrible day today with our 8 month old dobermann that he is having a halti or one of the other similar collars mentioned here.

At least then both me and him can enjoy our walks.

Karen

Because of the streemlined shape of the head I would advise going for the Medium Gentle Leader (have found the large way too large on Dobes), as with the clip that runs on the bottom of the nose loop this gives a snug fit minimising the ride up tendency! The webbing also has soft edges, and doesn't mark as much as the webbing on the Halti.

contact www.kumfi.com and the telephone no ring him and he will sort your problem out all the best
joe-m

Hi Brainless,

That does not sound good (what is your first name or have i just not read it).

Just seen your post now - today bought a Haltie and took dog out for a walk.

It was BLISS. I don't know why I reverted to a check chain after having a haltie for last dog.

Taken dog out twice in last three hours what with it being a nice evening and alll that and oh not having to put up with dog pulling.

He got used to it almost immediately . Only a few times tried to get it off. I think he enjoyed himself more to because I wasn't saying heel every 20 seconds and not using check chain.

Cannot wait until tomorrow to take him for walkies again and to having a spring in my step when doing so.
Thanks.
Karen.

It is Barbara, but Brainless, or more properly scatter brain is fine :D

I know some people feel they have failed if they have to use as head collar. My attitude is use what gives you control and makes walking your dog a mutual pleasure!

I agree Brainless, and of course there is nothing to stop training continuing, by using the command 'Heel' and lots of praise, just because the dog is already there :). The conditioning can still go on and in fact could be easier because you're already in a 'win' situation.