Hello

Just read this weeks issue of Our Dogs in letters to the editor;

Judge my dog not my face! This letter writer says that judging the dog does not always happen that the judge judges recognises the owner/handler as apposed to the dog?And the writer asks how long they have to stick it out before they to become a "face."

Do you think this is the case? And is it worth new-comers trying to break through. Or will we all end up discouraged like this owner.

They finish saying and I quote;

"Perhaps to help me in the future the secretary accepting my entry, if not recognising my name could return my entry form and cheque with "YOU'VE GOT NO CHANCE" written across it. This would save my time and money. If the "faces"/ judges really care about their breeds and the future of dog shows then the time for a change is now. Once the Dog Showing world has a repputation for being fair and honest it will flourish.
I do not expect to be placed in every show I enter, all I ask is please judge my DOG and not my face."

Do you think this is the case in your breed?

Karen

Breed : Golden Retrievers

In my breed it could appear that if you are not a *face* you don't stand a chance. We have some of the largest entries at shows but there are 15 or so easily recognised names who win often.

However 99% of the time it isn't true you have to be a *face* to win (they'll always be times it does happen - human nature)
I have on the whole found people welcoming and helpful - I don't push myself at them but I've always had a smile and a "morning" and I usually get a response from whoever it is.

I have now been showing for 9 months (mainly open shows but 2 Champs shows as well). As time has gone by my perception has changed for the BETTER.

At first I wasn't sure if it was faces or dogs winning and I didn't know what was a good dog or a poor one at first. Now I can recognise (not perfectly but I'm getting there) what is a good dog. Now many *faces* have been in the game years and they know what a good dog is and they breed them and show them and they win with them but 99% of the time that's because they HAVE got the best dogs ;) These dogs and *faces* who win - win time and time again. Now either the whole show scene is bent, every Judge bent or the dogs deserve their places :)

Also Judges often have preferred types and the *faces* have been around long enough to know who to go under so consequently usually get placed - you don't see them chucked that often as they didn't even enter the class of a Judge who they know prefers a different type.

Also with experience comes better handling skills - a *face* and a non-face with equal dogs on the end of a lead - the face will likely win against the newbie as they have their dog at the right pace, have it stood just right etc etc.
My handling skills are improving and I get more from Phoebie now than I did at first.

Being seen doesn't hurt of course - more people speak to me and acknowledge me as each show goes by. That in itself helps to relax me and enjoy the day and consequently get the best out of my dog so in that way being around a while does help ;)
I don't feel that I don't stand a chance in a class if all the others are well known otherwise I wouldn't even enter.

I may be viewing it all through rose tinted specs but I'm gonna stick with this view and keep attending shows and learning - maybe I'll be a *face* oneday and have some good wins but it'll be because I have picked the best pup from the litter because I've finally learnt what the breed standard requires in my dog :D

SaraW :)

editted for grammar x 2 lol :D

My word Sara, with an attitude like that you deserve to get there and I am sure in the end you will, maybe not with Pheobe, but you will, be sure of that. :)

Well said, and my views exactly. I am still a relative Newbie of 10 years. People become faces when they have a dog worthy of winning consistently. some become faces very quickly, and some have been in their breed for Donkeys years but never had a dog that put them in the spotlight.

I still feel most judges go for their idea of the best dog.

WELL SAID SARAW !!!!!! if only the rest of the instant experts-moaners would take the same attitude as you-to watch and learn, then theyd probably see the light too!!!! good on you, :D , and by learning youd have a better eye when you decide to look for another, its the right way of doing things, also the reason why very few win with there first dogs, its not that theyre not so called "FACES"- but the fact theyve probably not quite got an eye for the breed yet,

Certainly in my breed, and Group the new faces can come through.

Sure Archer wiull confirm this, and as an example the Best Puppy in Show at the Hound Association of Scotland are showing their first Elkhound Puppy, who was at it's first Champ show at LKA in De3cember, and was too young for Cruufts. They were BPIB at Manchester, and now Best Puppy in Show.

It is judges who don't know what they are doing, or don't have the courage of their convictions that put up faces they recognise as having been puyt up before. I think this sort of thing is more often incompetence than favouritism.

I've only been showing Elkhounds for just under 2 years but my 2 boys have done me proud with them both being placed in the first 2 at all champ shows attended in the last 12 months including crufts(spent the first year learning how to come last and smile at the same time!!LOL)I can honestly say I have never felt cheated or hard done by and have felt very welcomed by the established people in the breed.
Maybe it varies from breed to breed?
Archer

I think we will all come up against some 'facey' judges, some seem really blatant about it, some seem to do their own thing until it comes to the top awards, when the CCs go to faces, some are completely unbiased.
I think it is true to say that in most cases, the top names will have the best dogs- they haven't become 'faces' through showing poor specimens of the breed all those years.
I also think that if you have a good dog, and you show it well, you will win under an honest judge.
I have only been showing for 5 years, but I have had some really good wins over some top winning dogs. We've also been trounced on many occasions, but that's what makes showing fun- never knowing what will happen- it would soon become boring if we won all the time!
Liz (a dog showing addict!)

I think there are some "facey" judges now but you get to know who they are and if we vote with our feet (As I'm doing this year!) and not enter under them, then it'll be the judge that suffers as their entries will get lower.

There are some judges I will enter under because I think my dog is fairly assessed, Frank Kane, I think has to be one of the fairest around and I'll always enter my dogs under him.

Can someone explain Why some judges judge in this way ?
Surely we should be judging the dog ?
Lel

Hi all,

I just had to reply on this thread,

I've just started showing one of my dogs (GSD) at very small shows, so far.

I understand, that a lot of the dogs that are around, we haven't got a chance of beating...and thats not a problem, when we do well, we're chuffed!! When we don't....it doesn't matter....we always come home with the best dog!!
But it comes down to perseverance (sp?) Do the best you can...stick at it, even when things don't go right. Your face will eventually be known around the ring, hopefully it will be because your dogs are good. But,most of all, enjoy it.
Thats the best advice I've been given, hopefully I can stick to it!!! :D

Take care

Lisa

Hello,

I started this thread due to reading the article and wondered what anyone thought!

I myself think that Sarah had the same views as myself.

ie If you are a "face" you are liable to have been in your breed for some time, therefore it follows that you will have established "a line and type" and should know the breed standard inside out, l breeding puppies that are similar but an improvement hopefully on their parents.

That they show more than a occasional shower like myself means they will win more.

I intend to show Sal myself even though her breeder has offered, he is a "face" I suppose ;) I intend to persever myself learning as we go and will enjoy trying with Sal.

But you ain't in it you won't win it .

By just visting shows nodding and smiling at people, then admiring their dogs which I have been doing for a year now not every show but lots of Stafford shows, I find people now say Hello to me first now.
Karen

Hi i've been showing now for 5 yrs with Amber Golden Retriever.When I first
got her people said to me you've got no chance of showing her as it's just the big faces
that get thrrough.I cast the comment to one side,thought still give it a go at
her first show which happenrd to be a ch.show we got second minor puppy,
out of a large entry of well known faces.Amber has continued her sucess in the
show ring and got her stud book number last summer 2nd limit bitch at United Retriever
ch.show.
So I say to people give it ago and do your best there are judges out there who
eyes don't start looking at the dog and finish traveling up the owners lead to the
*face*.
Go into the ring expecting nothing,always congratulate those who have won,
and look at your own dog and try to work out why the judge did'nt pick yours,
kennel blindness is a bad condition to pick up and it's always easier to say the judge
is being facey but may be on the day the bigger breeders dogs on the day were the
better.
The perfect show is still waiting to be bred!

Regards Briony :-)

Hi everyone

I had to reply to this cos there was a similar article in Dog world. We have a Hungarian Vizsla and were encouraged by his breeder to get into showing, we have been going now for about four months (yes a real beginner!!) We have experienced some face placing and some great judging, not always in our favour, but it does show sometimes that our dog looks identicle to his sister, but he is taller and she has an experinced handler. Yet she always get placed more than us. I know there can be lots of reasons for this and being a novice handler the most obvious, but when we get consistantly placed in A.V. Gundog or even A.V (our best win!! 1st of 14 in AV) why do we always get near nothing in breed?

All I can say is we try to go to as many shows as possible with a breed class (not as easy as it seems), and talk to everyone with a vizsla, and try to chat to the judge when they have finished and basically make ourselves known to as many people as possible. We also found that if we hang around till the show closes people will approach us and we have met judges that way too!

We have been told by stewards all sorts some more helpful than others but we take everything on board and try some of the suggestions at ringcraft to see how they go. On the whole though people have been really good us. It is however somewhat disconcerting to see a judge award a first and then the hadler and judge exchanging hugs and kisses before even leaving the ring!!

The other thing we do is to write a breif assesment of me Ross (my dog) and the judge so that when the name comes up again we know what to expect. (it has hepled already cos it is amazing how quick you can forget details and quirks of a judge or a days performance) This invaluable piece of advice came for the breeder who we are indebted too for her never ending faith in us!! We know now that Ross prefers to be first in the ring and not hanging about for ages before he is in, also he gets better the more classes he is in (hence we are always outside practising!!)

Hope some of these points help others.

In reply, yes I believe face placing does go on, but there are judges out there that judge the dog, not the face and dont penialise the dog for having a novice handler. In short get out there and have fun.

Liz

Breed: Bulldogs

Hello, I often visit the site just to read what people have to say but this is the first time I have commented. I have only been showing for a year and I am very new to it all with a lot to learn. I am lucky that the crowd I mix with from ringcraft have been showing for over 20 years.

It is extremely 'facey' within my breed and have been told by several that you can count on one hand the number of decent judges in our breed. 9 times out of 10 when I go to a show I know by looking at the names who is going to come where.

I don't expect my boy to become a champion on his first outing and I enjoy going even though I know it is corrupt as I like meeting the different breeders and at the end of the day it is a day out. I would be lying if I said it wasn't frustrating but I guess I will have to wait another 19 years for a result!! What with the average bulldog life span being about 5 years - that will be dog number 5 then.

A prime example being at a show I went to where I handled he got best puppy, so naturally went on to group. In group he got handled by a 'face', by rights he shuold have been slung as he behaved awful, but to my shock he got 1st. I has over the moon but deep down knew it wasn't my lad it was the person holding the lead, had I gone in there would have been no way that I would have been placed.

Anyway, as I said its a day out, a chance to mix with your friends and the dogs enjoy it.

Breed; German Shepherd Dog

Sara you're a star- couldn't have said it better myself:D :D :D

I've been showing for about the same length of time and if the judges are all *facey* why have I always got 4th out of entries of around 11? (the exception being Sat with a 3rd;)) My first ever show a very well known face came 1st and took BPIS- the last show I went to they were the place infront- still a better bitch but the gap's not quite so big now both are maturing- if the game was that facey- surely they wouldn't have came just infront of us- we should have been way down the line:) One of the things I learnt was that a lot can happen between pups when maturing, when they have their first season etc and I learnt that the line my bitch is from does usually look better when matured. With time- yes your face does become better known but you also know the standard better, learn what a quality dog really is (constructionally) rather than liking the better looking dog best:o- Yes I did in the early days;) You learn how to handle better- it was only the weekend that I learnt how to hold a lead properly- I never realised there was such technique in such a simple thing like that:) I've decided that in this game it's live & learn- I haven't spoke to someone established within the breed/ showing lark without learning something- each time I learn something adding to my own little bank of knowledge:) I've even emailed Dizzy and others asking questions and learnt from their answers- listen and learn:) It's no good buying a bitch- expecting it to be the best and getting narky when it's not winning consistently then breeding and deciding you want every pup in the litter to go to show homes...................it's just not going to work:)- I know this is one of the biggest pet hates amongst the show people I know/have spoke to:)

Stacey x x x

hi kazzstaff,
Find this an interesting but difficult subject, i think anyone concidering getting into the show world has to keep an open mind have a real passion and love of dogs and take the rough with the smooth, "face judging" or sour grapes or just bad judging,you scratch my back i'll scratch yours, it all happens and there is little anyone can do, it is frustrating when you can not see were a judge is going with there judging, not judging to a type or even to what they have there selfs, i think this was mentioned in another post some do not have the guts to bypass a dog that has done a lot of winning. it is always going to be a gamble for the newcomers in time you get to know what some judges like and if they are the ones that judge a honest dog if not you don't give them a entry if they are judging your breed again,regards tina

Thanks everyone who replied I thought this would cause a debate due to the fact the article got my attention in the first place.

I thought people would have views on it.

Karen

It has made for very interesting reading , the whole thread is a good one

Interesting to note there are no comments from the Malamute people though :D :D ;)

Melody :)

Hi Melody,

I don't know about Malamute's or their judging, but maybe silence speaks a thousand words :)

Karen

It definitely does Karen ;)

Hi ya

Just a point, but in our breed Hungarian Vizslas, there are not many open shows where there is breed class that is a reasonable distance to travel to, (we own a pub so added dificulties in getting out for a day) so not attending a certain judge is difficult if we want our breed represented at open shows. If no one shows up for a judge the organisers assume it is the show and therefore don't add the breed next time. So we loose a show and not a judge. Although the breed is on the increase this is a situation that could be done without when we are looking for more recognition for CC's.

Any other breed have the same trouble?

Liz

Yep, and the answer is get in there and show in the variety classes, especially if it is a good judge who is perhaps doing Group/BIS.

In fact I prefer not seperately classified, as after a while with a numerically small breed like ours are the same dogs appear at the local shows time after time, and you soon get to know who is likely to beat whom, or if quality is fairly even you each have a turn at winning. Now in not seperately classified and AV you never know what you will be up against.

SaraW you have it in a nutshell :D :D

Breed: Cocker Spaniels again a Breed that has very high entries at Champ Shows :)

I have been Showing for about 8 years just in Guernsey/Jersey to start with and then in 2000 ventured across to the UK for my very first Champ Shows. To start off with I thought that the Judges were facey, but hey I was a newbie just turning up at these Champ Shows and a vast majority of my fellow exhibitors had been Showing/Breeding for over 15 years so of course they know what they are doing and are going to get pulled out in line ups etc. They also attend Shows every week whereas I can only manage to get over to say 4 if I’m lucky. I dare say that there are some that do face judge, but at the end of the day we pay our money and take a chance.

I think it is good for Newbies to be seen at Champ Shows and Open Shows, but don’t be disappointed if you don’t win. Just take the exercise as getting your face seen; chatting to different people, watching the different dogs in the ring etc.

I also think that you have to have a good dog, and maybe one from a good breeder is step in the right direction. We all think are dogs are wonderful and should win, but be serious take a closer look at them.

My first dog Sebastian is on the big side for a Cocker, he also has a light nose and light eyes but he has won quite a few 1st prizes from Open Shows. Bart my second dog is a great improvement on Sebastian, but he has one white haw eye which when he is tired really shows up. His eyes aren’t the tightest in the world either and he doesn’t have that much feathering on his back legs, but he is a happy dog and always wags his tail when in the show ring which counts. He is a nice compact dog more of the old type Cocker. Douglas my baby was bought from a good kennel, he was run on until he was 4 months old to make sure that his teeth were perfect and his bits had dropped. He is by far the best Cocker I have owned so far. His movement is great, he has a lovely head, lovely tight dark eyes and is nicely put together well I think so :D :D :D

JMT

Dessie :D :D

Saraw...i couldn't agree with you more!!
I've also just started showing my Golden Retriever pup.Shes 9 motnhs old now and we are lucky if there is less than 25 dogs in our classes.
I've heard the same thing over and over again.You have got to serve an apprentice for so many years and they may let you in.
If they don't let the newcomers and younger handler/breeders in....where is the future of the breed going?Will it die when all the established breeders give up or die!!!!
They have no choice but to let us in eventually.And i'm going to keep banging on that damn door untiil they open it!!!!!

I have seen face judging and quite blatantly at a couple of shows.These judges had very poor entries and a lot of the faces....if they weren't in the right Clique as it is were also being thrown out.Its just the way it goes.For every judge who does this, thankfully theres a 100 that don't!
And it will all be reflected next time this person judges....the entries will be worse.I know of many people who wouldn't walk to the bottom of the street to show under them now!
Its their choice and we just learn by trial and error.

But i'll keep going like yourself until someone does see my dogs good points.Its always a good day out and i have also found the majority of Goldie people very welcoming!!!
Must come and find me at a show soon.

Mel
T

Saraw...i couldn't agree with you more!!
I've also just started showing my Golden Retriever pup.Shes 9 motnhs old now and we are lucky if there is less than 25 dogs in our classes.
I've heard the same thing over and over again.You have got to serve an apprentice for so many years and they may let you in.
If they don't let the newcomers and younger handler/breeders in....where is the future of the breed going?Will it die when all the established breeders give up or die!!!!
They have no choice but to let us in eventually.And i'm going to keep banging on that damn door untiil they open it!!!!!

I have seen face judging and quite blatantly at a couple of shows.These judges had very poor entries and a lot of the faces....if they weren't in the right Clique as it is were also being thrown out.Its just the way it goes.For every judge who does this, thankfully theres a 100 that don't!
And it will all be reflected next time this person judges....the entries will be worse.I know of many people who wouldn't walk to the bottom of the street to show under them now!
Its their choice and we just learn by trial and error.

But i'll keep going like yourself until someone does see my dogs good points.Its always a good day out and i have also found the majority of Goldie people very welcoming!!!
Must come and find me at a show soon.

Mel

Sorry coming in late on this thread. I have been in my breed for nearly 20 years and dabbled in showing about 10 years ago but didnt do much so didnt continue showing that bitch as she wasnt really good enough so she lived out her years as a much loved pet. 18 months ago, I was in a position to get another dog and decided I wanted another go at showing so approached a well known breeder and purchased a puppy dog. Obviously he was promising but no guarantees in this game!

However, I have shown him a fair bit and a lot of people in the breed do not know me as I havent been round the rings for the past 10 years. We have seen some facey judging but on the whole I think much of it has been fair. As an unknown we won 3 BPIB at Ch shows last year as well as puppy group 2 at Three Counties Ch show and were 1st in the Junior stakes at SWKA Ch show for Gundog day at a day over 12 months old! Also numerous BOB & BP at open shows with a few group places and a BIS4! So as an unknown, I have done rather well under both breed specialists and allrounders and dont think the dog game is in too much of a mess. Yes we have all seen the face judging but generally speaking, if my dog has been beaten, he has been beaten by a better dog on the day. Face judging goes on without doubt but I think the majority of our judges judge the dogs on the day and not who is on the other end of the lead.

Abby