Could someone suggest how to stop dog to dog agression as I was invited to post this question from another site. In particular a reliable method is being sought. I would be interested in peoples comments.

Hi
Do mean in any particular situation ?
Someone has posted re: agression at dog shows already .
I think you need as much socialisation as possible when small but i suppose there will always be those dogs prone to aggression :(
I would say it is a matter of owners being responsible and never letting aggressive dogs off lead when other dogs are around . It is up to the owner to keep the situation under control
Lel

Hi Lel, yes I mean in general, out on walks, walking down the street, anywhere really. How to get a dog to walk on the lead without trying to face off when passing another dog.

Our pup is over friendly luckily ( although that can have its draw backs too and he sometimes frightens the life out of me )
Pup has only had friendly experiences so far :)
bu I know with our last Staffy we would always put him on the lead when other dgs were around - even tho he had a lovley temperement too but there always seems to be dogs off lead that come sniffing around and can be confrontational .
It is annoying when your dog is on the lead and people walk past while their dogs are being openly annoying and yet they do nothing about it :(
Lel

Is this Max you are talking about?
Lara x

Hi Banger, there is some occasional notion that aggression is some kind of unatural behaviour in dogs, it is not but its manifestion varies from dog to dog.
Have you seen the vet about it at any point and if so with what results/ if there is no veterinary problem then it is quite simply an obedience problem. Can you tell me what sort of obedience training you did with him or if you did any training with him?

Hi Banger, I thought you were happy using Jojo's methods? You really should not keep chopping and changing methods. Being consistant is the first rule of any training.

Hi Banger, Aggression in dogs that ends in injuring another dog in not dog law it is humans that taught them this. Dogs learned that in order to survive in a pack they could not use agression that would injure another so reducing the ability for the pack to hunt. Dog to dog agression is only ritulized with posturing mouthing barking and growling but they need to have learned the language. In Romania and New York where there are many ferrel dogs they have reverted back to the old laws and do not attack one another to do harm. We all have to have aggression and compassion in us in order to survive and relate to one another. Dogs are no different. We and they must just learn to control it. Dogs are born with a set of genetic rules that are the basis of how to survive and it then varies these by learned rules. Most dogs are not bothered about dominancy but there are some so that are and your dog meeting one of these usually walking towards one another and on the lead is likely to create aggressive posturing that can end up in a fight. Particularly when you try to drag them apart. Socilisation is the important training here and you need to teach your dog to learn the language of dogs meeting on another. It follows a set of rules with all the body posturs and sniffing.

A good instructor will match up a dog with one that has all the language and only wants to play and once learned the dog can display this to other dogs and then gradually introduce to more dominant dogs. A good way to introduce dogs is to walk in parallel and slowly get closer so it is not confrontation and have titbits to hand. if you watch you will learn the language and see it is the same every time but keep one on the lead. Do be careful you try to keep the lead slack as a tight lead can bolster a dog to feel stronger than it is. That is why you hear people say their dog seems more aggressive on the lead. If you have a friend with a dog meet them off territory and then after the meeting and the dog is displaying the front bowing posture for lets play then you should find that if you now go to their home the dogs should be ok together. It is best that you make friends with the other dog first so the dog likes you and then gets to meet your dog. Love me love my dog. If your dog is an agressive dog like my daughters Staffie she put a muzzle on it and so the vunerablilty has carmed it down. The reason is that the number of wins a dog has increases it testosterone level. A muzzle therefore reduces this calming the dog and make it more likely and willing to make friends and learn the rules of the infinate pack. Once her dog has learned and is calmer she will take the muzzle off again. This is why most young police dogs were taken to civilian dog training classes not for the obeidience but for the socilisation.

This makes complete sense Alan and goes along with what we did with a friend's Working Sheepdog my club. It took a little while but it did work. Part of the trouble in this case though is that this has been an ongoing thing for, it must be a couple of years now with Banger posting on several boards and as far as I can gather from reading the posts, trying just about everything for a short while then starting in on something new. A couple of weeks or so ago he decided that an electric collar was the way to go. As I said, if he is not consistant in his approach NO method will ever work.

John

Hi John, We find this a lot with owners that try this with no success then try that so the dog which may have only had one problem ends up with loads of them and an owner to teach as well. I do not like sound and electic collars because of the pain they cause. If a dog recieves pain it askes who did it and it could target a child becasue it was in the vacinity. I understand that ones sold in Spain have a 800 meter range. They cant even see the dog at that distance. I do like the gas sprays if used correctly with praise and they allow an owner to see good results quickly and the Pet Perswader may just do this for Banger but I will not sell them without teaching the owner how to achieve this otherwise the dog thinks the owner does not like them so making a negative result. We have an insturctor in Spain who just lets all the dogs off the lead and sees what happens so those dogs that show agression end up leaving the class when it them that need the socilisation. Sounds like you understand the meaning of socilisation training in your club. Spain is a bit behind I am afraid.

Some good points Alan

Feral dogs always tend to be well socialised :) - and the problem usually stems from lack of the correct socialising at critical times of a dogs upbringing.
Keeping a slack lead when you have a dog hell bent on having a go at an approaching dog is nearly always easier said than done however, and some dogs initially will not respond to any handler distraction whatsoever. In this case I would recommend using a head collar and physically turning the dogs face away to break the eye contact. Head collars can be used adjoined to a sturdier collar if the handler is worried that it may slip off etc...
Some dogs, however playful do not adopt the play bow position. Mine doesn't :)
Lara x

Hi Laura, Your are correct about the head collar. I was always sceptical of them as they turned a dogs head away from the agressive dog and i felt that this was unnurving for my dog. I did try the Halti down at Roger Mugfords some months ago and was impressed with the reduced pulling of the dog and the control over the barking and turning the dogs head away from the other dog does quieten things down considerably. I always use the halti with the safety link just incase the dog manages to back out of it if the tightness was set incorrectly. As to the slack lead I am talking about the actual training with less aggressive dogs as they are taught how to use the ritulised meeting. I do agree two dogs as you say hell bent on a fight a slack lead is a pipe dream. As to the play bow it is more commen in bitches for come on then chase me chase then. Well that is how I read it. All mine would do that to one another if they wanted a game but it is how they learn from puppies. Where ever I go in the world we as humans cannot get our languages to be the same and yet I see the same body language in all dogs be they Romanian German english American or French dogs. Where did we go wrong.

just on thought for Banger is a can of compressed air called the Pet Perswader. I used it to stop a dog lunging at children out in Spain. I have never used it to stop a dog going for another dog as I never had a dog do this because I always was required to socilise them. Because of this I have never stopped a dog fight yet using this but I think it could be used on such an occasion.
I think you can get them from pet shops or from Company of Animals. The main thing with this is the timing is crucial. When the dog lunges the air is fired across the dogs muzzle whilst it is on the lead and immediatly you must praise your dog with major praise to show it did wrong but you are not annoyed at it. You do not have time to look and admire your handy work as your dog jumps back. You must get the immediate priase in and cudle and comfort your dog. Also remember the other dog maybe startled too so i would do it with a friend.

John yes we are using JoJo's methods very successfully but this is a discussion board and I merely posed a question to see how other people are doing things. By the way John we tried John Rogersons methods for a year, more than enough time to decide it wasn't working. We have seen more progress in two weeks than in a year of the country's top Behaviourist !

Yap yap we have seen many vets and none of them have mentioned tests or anything and Max only gets agressive in certain situations. We have seen many behaviourists for about 2 years without any success. We did have some residential training done but I think it was a mistake because we didn't keep it up and we didn't understand enough about our dogs drives at the time, something we are putting right now. We are currently refreshing Max's obediance ourselves whilst educating ourselves. We have discovered that Max knows all the commands very well, but because of his Rank Drive just refused to do them ! We are now working on Max's Pack and Prey drives on an obediance refresher, but it's new territory for us.

Alan are you seriously suggesting that you blast the very sensitive dogs nose with air, I'm no vet but wont this damage the dogs nasal cavity, there is quite a bit of pressure in the aerosol cans. Are there any vets on this site who can comment on this ?

As you are using a method which you say is very sucessful banger, I wonder why you put the post here? You seem very happy with what you are doing anyway!

John

I don't think there is any harm done in broadening your knowledge by finding out what other peoples methods are John. It doesn't necessarily mean that you will use them but it doesn't hurt to build up a base of tips/hints/training methods etc...
Lara x

But then again - it does give you the opportunity to promote those who use methods that can't be called kind fair or effective..........

I really don't believe this is the case with this post Lara. After reading posts by Banger and Yapyap/(any other name you can think of) I am more inclined to think it is just another attempt at a wind up.

John

I note your coments Digger and John, can you please explain these methodss which, by implication, you fully understand and have experience of, the later is implied because you have an opinion, a valid opinion must be based on more than a theoretical, academic or prejudiced view if all are to gain knowledg and education, in oreder to make informed decisions regarding their own dogs and possible remedial courses for behaviour problems.
I look forward to your description to validate your stance and categorical statements, especially in the light of Bagners extensive experience of BOTH methods and now, with that extensive knowledge and experience he is now in a position to pass on information we might not find readily available.
I look forwards to both your replies.

Hi yapyap. In your first post on this thread you said

<<Can you tell me what sort of obedience training you did with him or if you did any training with him?>>

now you are saying

<<especially in the light of Bagners extensive experience of BOTH methods.>>

if you knew of his “extensive experience” then it makes the post seem even more of a windup!

I do not think it does any harm to debate all methods of training. There is no rule that says that you have to try any or all of these methods. I think it is interesting to hear about different training methods/uses, their successes/failures and not condemn just because you do not agree with them or earn a living from them.

I thought my question was both simple and valid John.

[deleted]

Please can we keep this on topic:

suggestions on "how to stop dog to dog aggression'

I do walk with a dog to dog aggression rehabilitation group (for my own interest and for being social, not because my dog needs it) but certainly would not attempt to post any advice because Banger's trainer Jojo (who seems identical to Yapyap) has already insisted that advice from me, and also from Champdogs, is dangerous and that ALL of us on here should take some responsiblity for Max's aggression!!!

I would seriously suggest that any attempt to help could misfire badly on the person advising and that their name may be blackened.Yes, i feel this is a wind up in very bad taste.

For interest, on the site agilitynet.co.uk, there is a small article about wolf watching, linked up to the Turid Rugaas(she of the dog body language experience and book called "On Talking Terms with Dogs").

It tells how an aggressive GSD relaxed and started to investigate the people there, it was wonderful. It approached them voluntarily. Now that to me is dog training and understanding behaviour!!! ;)

lindsay

Lindsay

I agree with Lindsay on this one - although I havn't posted on any of these threads I have been reading them -spread over a few boards.
Liz :)

I've been following posts in several places and agree with Liz and Lindsay, I am keeping out of it
Anne

I have just been back to www.dogchat.co.uk and Jojo is continually bad mouthing me even after I have left that site so that really speaks for itself. Banger, you did not even have the decency to repeat to that forum that i have NOT been giving you advice for a year......yet you are happy to let these lies be spread.

Apparently I "succeeded" in getting the recent Champdogs thread on electric collars stopped!!!!! That thread was due to be branched and was not stopped by me. More lies!

Jojo/Yapyap is certainly not behaving like a professional, but like a lunatic.

Shame on you,Tim.

We are all happy with reasonable, interesting, informative, debate, but no-one welcomes troublemakers.

LIndsay

Locking thread as it has now gone off topic, even after another request to keep this thread on topic :-(