I haven't read all the comments made but just getting back to the comments about the dogs becoming more loving towards you or words to that effect...I know if I tread on one of my dogs feet by accident and they yelp, the first thing they do is love me in their way...is this the sort of thing you mean, I cause them pain so they instantly fuss me as if it's their fault and love me to bits. ??? What would other peoples dogs do if they accidently trod on their paw ??
sorry you will never convince me that these collars are good which ever way you try to put it across.
Do the dogs feel pain ? yes..
Can a check chain/ halti ect cause pain if used incorrectly ..yes... but they are not purchased in the first place to cause pain on an excitable dog, and if they are not for use on an aggressive dog then find another way, not a cruel way wether it works or not.
Tracey

I now use an E on Max. We have been to many behaviourists and trainers over about 2½ years without success. But over the last few weeks we have seen a dramatic change after using an E for drive stimulation training on Max.

Max after about a week now has a repetoire of about 6 commands, all introduced using the E. It isn't a simple case of stimulating Max when he does the wrong thing, we are working to build on Max's Pack Drive and lower his Rank drive, whilst discouraging his Prey Aggression by lowering the drive associated with it. I have to say had we not got in contact with our current trainer we would have still been struggling with our current behaviourist after a year of training to her methods.

Max now LISTENS to us, has manners, we can stop a particular behaviour at command. But most important because we are working on Max's Pack drive he is now more close to us. You know the saying 'it's lonely at the top', well I feel Max has been feeling that Max used to be like that because he thought he was at the head of his pack making all the decisions. We are now seeing a change in this and improvement and Max is getting 'closer' to us all the time. He now looks for cues from us instead of just barrelling ahead and making his own decision, something we could have never imagined possible a few weeks ago.

Yes I forgot that closeness, my dogs is so happy now by comparison to before, he has total freedom and was on alead unless the plcaces were desreted and I know what you mean by that sort of......alone in the world look, he now gives joyous greetings and sort of has a smiley expression but that was realy the drive stimulations I was taught at the end of the day the E collar was only a small but vital part of it. Looking back to only a few weeks ago I really did not have any relationship with him but I think I found it difficult to admit to myself, he is just shows so much more enjoyment of being with me, before I think he just saw me as someone taged along as he wanted but he himslef seemed to feel alone and not really part of a pack at al, now he comes accross as actualy belonging to a family, but again that was the drive pressing and triggers etc.

I do agree that GSDs in particular can feel very "responsible" and need to understand they are not the leader of their family pack and that it is stressful and lonely at the top :)

This is usually managed in different ways according to the person, for example some swear by Ms Fennell, others by not letting dogs on furniture etc. as we all know. Some dont follow any of these rules but manage a strong dog well. I always let my dog eat first! Always have done.

I get a bit confused Tim, i know admin doesnt' want to turn this into a behaviourist thread but can you clarify exactly how many trainers and "people" you have seen?

I know there was the initial trainer, then i remember the residential trainer (who used an e collar) and then the behaviourist. Were there any more in between?

Lindsay

Regarding the original reason this thread was started, an aggressive GSD.

I have written about this story before but it was one of the main reasons i became interested in behaviour so hope I wont bore anyone by posting it again.

Briefly, I was a homechecker for the RSPCA some years ago. I heard from several sources about an aggressive GSD (I used to ask people if they would be happy to attend training classes etc so used to "vet" local classes out of interest.)

Anyway, a people aggressive rescue GSD was made to "behave" by use of check chain, thrown bean bags, and other similar methods. Over a few months, he seemed to accept people and was deemed "safe".

One day his owner was out at the beach with the club, at a cafe, dog under the table. The dog attacked the waitress.

What had happened was that the club had tackled the symptoms (ie growling, offensive displays etc) but didn't tackle the actual cause.

There are other examples but i feel it is SO important to tackle underlying causes. Use of an e collar, esp. if not taught by an expert, may appear to solve the problem just as the thrown beanbags etc did. But IMHO a dog's behaviour modified in such a way cannot be deemed safe. It may work but it would be a risk.

The dog would be basically holding himself in check and could "explode" at any time.

JMHO ;)

LIndsay

Can I point you all to this article that happened near me a couple opf years ago : http://www.thisisbrighton.co.uk/brighton__hove/archive/2001/10/25/NEWS321ZM.html

Accidents do happen and this can be the result.

Ingrid

There is also this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/204137.stm

Both of those reports are perfect examples or how NOT to use an ecollar!!! You can see that just by reading the articles yourself!!!

Annette

The point of both those reports is that it is extremely easy to get entirely the wrong response, and to cause extreme pain. Both bad things.

That can apply to any training method and any training tool. All are open to abuse if used incorrectly.

Hear Hear!!

Annette

True, Admin. It just appears to me that if you 'get it wrong' with this it is much more difficult to repair the damage.
:)

I think a check chain used inappropriately could cause just as much, if not more permanent damage. You will always get people that do not bother to find out how to use a tool and in turn cause injury :-(

Again true, Admin. Just as some people keep dogs and have no breed reference books. :(

Lindsay, please email Tim directly. I have already asked that this thread does not turn into another thread about behaviourists. Please respect my request. Thanks :-)

Hi admin,
I will email my trainer and ask him to ask Lou to post, thanks.
I am really limited to the collar I use Tri Tronics pro xl 100 and as I say it was part of a drive manipulation course and I am simply not in a position to answere many questions except reputable collars and with instantly selectable levels, for pet owners preferably around 15 levels in, but others apparently are fine as well but I was trained on this and I would't like to go beyond what I know. Lindsey those tests were carried by Tri Tronics who brought in vets to devise tests for safety, apart from that there have been extensive university tests done on them all over USA, Germany, Australia that I know of, I think the Deitrich Klein report is one of the most comprehensive. Don't aske me where to get them from because I dont know. I know a university called Auberon (i think) did a lot, the ecollars come up as the safest peice of dog training equipment ever.
The context is electrical stimulations of varying kinds used on liveing animals, there are brain pacemakers to stimulate the vagus nerve and other parts of the brain (implants) things which can be bought over the counter such as tense machines, acupubture pens a whola array of stuff I don't even know about. Safety is not issue unless you are a little frighetend of electricity, in which case it is not the collars but personal phobia's.
The other context, backtracking, is that they are new here and little known but in USA they are on sale in supermarkets, vets and everywhere really so most people know someone who knows how to use them, here at this point in time I found I benefited from a complete obedience training/educational course using an E as part of it, but to think that we Brits are not as intellegent as Amercans and can never learn to use them is a perespective I do not agree with.

Newspaper article Brighton.

Ingrid Article….A woman who used electric collars in a bid to tame her dogs today called for them to be banned after her pets killed another dog. Ostarra Langridge, 53, of Bath Road, Worthing, began using electric shock collars on an animal behaviourist's recommendation to stop Sunshine, Teddy Bear and Indi from misbehaving.

YapYap.. It CLEARLY states on my collars instructions. DO not use this product for aggressive problems. For aggressive problems you MUST see a trainer.

A behaviourist is not a trainer I know I have had a trainer and they are nothing to do with ANY organisation representing behaviourist and trainer mixes. My trainer completely dissociated himself from them before I had even met him, in his first email reply in fact.

Ingrid Article…Miss Langridge admitted in Brighton Magistrates Court yesterday that her pets were not under proper control at the time they killed the shihtzu and during another attack two days later on a cocker spaniel.
She sought the help of a behaviourist when they started to run away from her on their walks along the beach.
The dogs were given shock collars, which Miss Langridge was told to keep on for three months and activate when they misbehaved.

Yap Yap….NO you do NOT activate them when they misbehave for quite a while, the description given in this article is TOTALLY against what I was taught and most certainly against anything in the video and manufacturers instructions. It also states to get a trainer if in doubt.

Ingrid Article…But the first time the dogs got a shock was by mistake, after a small dog they were walking past made Miss Langridge jump.

YapYap…well apart from misuse that should not make any difference to the dog.

Ingrid Article….From then on her pets associated the shocks with small dogs and became afraid of them.
When Miss Langridge described the day in July when her dogs turned on a shihtzu she had tears in her eyes.

YapYap….This is a woman without knowledge of dogs and because of lack of knowledge she brought in a behaviourist who did not understand either E collars or corrections.
The statement the dogs associated it with dogs is nothing more than someone in court, without expert or basic knowledge of dogs simply trying to avoid responsibility and blame to decrease a penalty in court.

Ingrid ARTICLE .."I asked for the help of experts and even the Army and it was then I realised it was because of the electric shock collars.
"They connected the pain of the electric shock with little dogs because of the first time I used the collar. The day that machine came in this house I regret."

YapYap…..she brought in the ARMY…..
SHE BROUGHT IN THE ARMY?????????????

Anyway an article like this simply supports the E collar, brought in the army because of a dog fight…for heavens sake what rot.

As far as Essex police goes the kicked the dogs beat them hung them and all kinds of things, from what I read the e colar played little part, but that’s a case of animal cruelty nothing to do with E collars. Anything be used to hurt animals, you cannot ban someone from wearing boots because they kicked a dog.
----------------------------------
To Admin

I think I was a bit misleading about using prolonged stimulus for obedience commands. This might clarify it a little.

1. There is an automatic shut off after 8 secs.

2. E collars for obedience training are for KNOWN commands, but it must be a command not just something the dog is used to doing for a treat. If that is the case the dog must be taught a command first.

3. When you use prolonged stimulus you use the lowest levels perceptible to the dog, my dog originally showed awareness at about level 4 but then lost interest in it altogether, he seemed to think it was some insect or something, it got curious but not uncomfortable. I can feel level 2 but its about 4 before it gets somewhat uncomfortable.

4. What you do not do is let off a higher level when you start using them, you have to introduce the dog to them at a comfortable level which does not disrupt behaviour. That’s the way I was trained.

I found this all very easy with the dog there and doing it but to describe it I don't find it easy at all. I think thats like all training, you read a dozen books or listen to a dozen descriptions of how to do something but the real, life things different.

I also notice that a check chain has been mentioned. Well, if anyone has done about turns or ran back jerking the dog to recall then thats how you do it with an E (certainly my E ) you start the dog ON the lead first and it's on the lead when you introduce the collar doing the right and left turns etc BUT instead of jerking you use a very low level as you turn, but this is just a low static and has no risks or jerks that the chain or even normal collar give. Then instead of haveing long lines you find that if you have a recall at 3 feet you have it at 300 yards,
Bbecause the dog soon gets used to the low levels and ingnores them you up it a level and it learns there is no reward in disobeying but plenty reward when it comes back and the more it comes back reliably the more the reward, it learns there is no reward in disobeying.
But because the timeing and consistency are 100% the dog learns quickly, there is no confusion at any distance but ontop of that, in my case the drive stimulations were what I had to learn and that I think was really important and developing the dogs pack drive and lowring its rank seems fundamental to ALL succesfull training. You cannot use anything other than low levels with this method as the dogs attention must be on the owner and not distracting levels of discomfort.

Having just got in from work and read this thread I must say I am disgusted! The way I read things is that this board in now in favour of the use of electric collars. If I an right and this is the stance of this board then I am afraid I will have to considder my position.

I WILL NOT BE ASSOCATEDIN ANY WAY WITH A FORUM WHICH CONDONES THE USE OF ELECTRIC COLLARS FOR THE BASIC TRAINING OF DOGS!

John

Since when did three or four people constitute a whole forum John?

Melody

I think the important thing to note is that you are not causing your dog any pain. If you are (and the dog will let you know) you are misusing the E. I have heard that halti's can also cause damage to your dogs neck and spine not to mention some owners use them on a flexi lead. Any tool is open to misuse and that is down to the owner. Choke chains and even half chokers can cause damage to the neck when used incorrectly some of which are still used at training clubs. Don't blame the tool before you have seen it work.

John, I do not see a forum condoning anything. I see a debate about one particular training tool. You are entitled to your opinions on this tool but so are others and just because you and others do not agree, does not mean that everyone must avoid mentioning this tool on our forum. As an instructor you yourself know the benefits of EDUCATION and this is what this debate is about: EDUCATION

Arent E collers banned?
Mari

Two things here Yap yap, firstly no where in the article did it say her dogs were aggressive before she put the collars on them, in fact she told the lady with the shihtzu they were ok, it was the accidental shock that they associated with small dogs after the event, prior to that they had been runing free on the beach and round here there are loads of dogs doing just that. If you mis-use a head collar of choke chain the damage is done to you dog only and the association of pain is with you,
with any remote device the dog will associate it with what ever is closest at the time.
Secondly, most behaviourist I know also run dog training & puppy socialisation classes, they also belong to the APDT which doesn't allow the use of choke chains or electric collars by their members. they do years of study into animal behaviour before embarking on their career.
Anyone can start up classes and call themselves a Dog Trainer & believe me I know good and bad in both worlds. I could probably hazard a guess as to who gave her the advice but I won't say on here.

Ingrid

Mari E collars aren't banned. David Rendel is trying to put a Bill through to ban them but some sources say it has very little chance of becoming law. 2nd reading of the Bill is on July 11 2003.

Ingrid there's something that doesn't make sense to me in that story. I know that you can purchase two dog collars but you dont set off the collar for both dogs at the same time. I have also searched most of the E collar manufacturers websites and none of them make a 3 collar set. If every dog had a seperate collar on, then the woman would have to press all 3 remote controls at the same time. Something just doesn't add up here.

The article refered to is at this web site addres.
http://www.thisisbrighton.co.uk/brighton__hove/archive/2001/10/25/NEWS321ZM.html

Ingrid……… firstly no where in the article did it say her dogs were aggressive before she put the collars on them,

YapYap....This is the reason she says the behaviourist told her to get an E, quote "She sought the help of a behaviourist when they started to run away from her on their walks along the beach"

YapYap, and what would an E do to stop that? NOTHING, she would have to take anobedience course by a trainer, the problem she described is an obedience problem and at no point has she said the behaviourist offered or refered her to someone to give her an obedience course useing the E or anything else, that speaks of the quality of advice given by as behaviourist, it makes no statement against E's.

....At no where in the newspaper reporting of what she said in court did she say they were not aggressive prior to the event.
The woman called in a behaviouris and as a result the woman CLAIMED to the court the E went off at sometime as the result of her mistake.The main essence of her statements to the court is that three dogs went for one small dog and this was the result of her ecollar being misused by her, this in turn has to be the fault of the behaviourist who seems to have taught her nothing, simply charged a fee and said get an E and after the consultation with the behaviourist all THREE dogs became aggressive. Obviously the behaviourist consultation has something to do with it.
The woman claims THREE dogs went for a Shitzu, she says the dog was frightened and trembeling before the incident, in which case it would be emmiting adrenalin scents which in turn would stimulate adrenalin in the GSD's and they, THREE of them would be stimulated to fight which they did.
The woman is not an expert on e collars, according to her she is not even capable of having one without letting it off accidentaly, that is not the fault of the e collar, however, her capability is not really the point.
There is no such thing as an E which sets off THREE collars at the same time at the same level, by accident or design, that rules out the E as haveing anything to do with it.
Anyone reading that article and who has the slightest bit of intelligence can see she hired a behaviourist who some way or other made the three dogs aggressive or alternatively she was trying to reduce whatever penalty the court might have given her and was making mitigation statements to reduce to the courts mind her own responsibility in the matter;

1. " I brought in a behaviourist"
2. "The behaviourist 'told me' to get an E collar"
(implying it was not her own idea but an idea she paid for and that she herself would not have had one otherwise)
3. “ The dogs were given shock collars, which Miss Langridge was told to keep on for three months and activate when they misbehaved.” In other words she as she was told and again not as she would have done if someone else had not told her.
(INCORRECT use of an E collar is described, a trainer would not advise that and it is totally misleading and incorrect instruction as to their use)
Ingrid, …”APDT which doesn't allow the use of choke chains or electric collars by their members”

YapYap….Yes I know APDT know nothing of E collars which is why they have no legitimate opinions of them.

APDT and other related bodies are the same as all commercial self promoting bodies such those representing the builders, plumbers mechanics and so on, they are commercialy based and pas work around as a trade group, beyond that they have no meaning.

Ability to pass exams does not constitute ability to understand the subject as all of those with any arts degree knows, A closer reading of the article above shows anyone the facts of the Brighton woman does not say anything much at all about an E or the correct use of one and certainly says nothing against them.

Articles such as the Brighton case do support the E collar as a close reading of that article shows how false stories can arise if misused by those whose lively hoods are threatened by E collars. There are many stories etc which are misused in this way, as this one has attempted to be misused. That in itself speaks for E collars, any equipment, which is no good or causes problems will fall by its own failings, when an item has no failings and people have to make up false or misleading stories it is those stories which because of their flaws tell people that the REAL product, in this case E collars, is in fact so good no real fault can be stated.

There is a very high incidence of aggression in dogs taught by positive trainers, I know something of Bangers case and his dog has become aggressive, including biteing memebrs of the family, this is the result of positive classes and the countries top behaviourists combined.
Banger and his dogs problems have been well known on this board for over a year as I understand it.

In a recent dog training magazine (can't recall which one, I was passing time in WHS!) it stated that "behaviourist" is the 'cool trendy' name for "trainer".

I'll tell my trainer that, I'm sure if thats the case he will start to call himself a behaviourist. Anyway what I was stateing is facts I am not getting involved in behaviourist trainer things unless they are integral in the context.
My own trainer has owned and trained a dog which had the highest civilian aclaim in the UK, he knows and has used at some point all training methods. I do not accep[t anyone is a trainer unless they have an internationaly recognised sports title or civilain recognitions which involve theor own training. I do not personaly accept anyone who has passed exams as having anything more than something which looks good in writing, that does not constitute someone who is able to handle any dog. Looks good on paper but as an employer it does not influence me, results do, they speak for themseleves.

Locked until I get time to branch it