Hello all,
I am looking to buy an electric collar for use at my training club with an aggressive young shepherd we have there. I have looked all over the internet for one of these and can't find them anywhere except the US. Are there any shops that sell electric collars over the net?
Thanks in advance,
Cath

I think this is a good reason why temprament is always important!!!

Think very carefully before you embark on this method of training. Subduing the dog this way will not remove the aggression, only hide it. Eventually it will out and then someone will get hurt!

John

Hi just bought e-collar today, searched all over uk most retail at £165, I've found a company who dispatches next day for £85.00 + vat... tel no is 0208 568 7788. As John said, make sure it's used correctly..if not they can cause far more problems than they solve...Good Luck!!

I did not say to use it correctly, I was saying I felt it totally inappropriate in this case. To use fear to control an aggressive dog is almost bound to at best end in failure, at worst someone very badly hurt! There are places where an electric collar may be of use but this is not one of them.

John

sorry, my mistake didn't read message properly, personally have no experience of using e-collars to control aggression so bow to your greater wisdom!!
In our situation (excitable over exuberant easily distracted young lab) we have been advised very useful as an aid to concentration and bringing her mind back to the job in hand!! Accept situation is completely different...SOrreeee!!!

can i ask what is so important for this dog to do that you need to use an electric collar ??? he is easlily distracted so you are going to shock him ??? Sorry this sounds awful to me, maybe you should find someone who is experienced enough to calm him down and teach you how to get his attention and keep his attention rather than shock methods.
Tracey

I don't know you or your dog, but I do know that nearly every single lab on earth is easily distractable and excitable when they are young. Are you sure you have received the correct advice? Using an e collar can do irreversable damage, so please just make sure you have explored every other option before resorting to one. How old is your lab, and what could he/she do that is so terrible?

Surely using *any* training aid incorrectly can cause irreversible damage to the dog??!!

Take the Halti for example - used properly it can help a LOT, but give it to someone without telling them how to use it properly, maybe they'll attach it to a flexible lead - the dog could dash off away from the owner and come to a very abrupt halt and possibly damage it's back and/or neck.
However, that doesn't mean one rules it out point blank [or the electric collar for that matter]. The sensible thing to do would be learn how to implement it *correctly* with the help of someone experienced in their use.

Annette

I think that's stretching what I said just a bit much -- a person can figure out to use a Halti simply by reading the package. It's NOT the same as shocking a dog. I can't imagine what a young lab could be doing that deserves a shock collar.

That's a biased opinion and, if you'll forgive me, one that's NOT based on fact. Have you ever used an ecollar? Have you ever seen one properly used? They don't just "shock" the dog into submission!!

If the Halti was a bad example, try the choke/check chain. PLENTY of people can use them correctly and plenty of people don't, resulting in unnecessary pain and possible injury to the dog.

Show me one, just ONE example of "irreversible damage" caused to a dog by an electric collar.

Annette

Go to your local shelter -- I'm sure you'll find plenty.

i'll tell you what i see when i visit my local shelter, and that's a LOT of dogs that aren't likely to be rehomed anytime soon because of behavioural problems. A lot of dogs that were given up by their owners and might well be PTS because of said behavioural problems. Dogs that probably would never have gotten that bad if their owners had invested in an ecollar and taken a decent obedience course!!!
On another forum i'm on, there's a guy training his GSD with the help of a good trainer and an ecollar at the moment and he has achieved more these past few of weeks with his dog than 2.5 years of training without one.
Don't knock it until you've tried it. Or at least until you know something about it!!!

Annette

Hi speedsmum
You seem to experienced in these collars, please explain briefly why you use them and what you do when the dog misbehaves or loses concentration and what effect it has on the dog
Thanks
Tracey

i've not used one yet, i've only seen the results from people that have. Speed and i will be embarking on a course in which an ecollar will be used in the very near future. i have tried literally everything else to improve her behaviour to NO avail - it has simply made her worse.
Yapyap, who has posted further down this thread can answer this though :)

Annette

When you said your training club did you mean a club that you run or a club that you belong to, in either case i am appalled that you are even considering using an e- collar, sorry but if you can't sort the dog out without resorting to such measures you shouldn;t be running training classes,i am a trainer at my local dogclub and yes we have had some beauties turn up for training,including a huge long coat german shepherd that would have attacked anything or anyone in the beginning but after months of the correct training methods( no cruel or harsh methods)he turned into a most lovely and well behaved member of our dogclub, that could even be worked with no problems off the lead,and yes it took time but he got there in the end, better slowly slowly than rush and make things a 100 times worse.And if i were that young shepherds owner i would tell you where you could put that electric collar and it wouldn't be round my dogs neck

Hi Ace
Could that place be 'where the sun don't shine' :D
tRACEY

Cath - send me an email on cornflake_girl_@hotmail.com - and i'll pass you on to an aquaintance of mine :)

Annette

Hi Cath,

You certainly have made a wise decision, I use an E and I also had a specialist obedience course with a pro trainer.
The E collar is the best thing that happened both to dogs and owners more than that the greatest succes story on this board was someone trained by the same trainer as me and he also got an E. I would recomend them to anyone, one thing you have got wrong is that they are not just for dogs with serious problems you can use them for ordinary pet obedience as well, but yes I wholeheartedly give my support to you ar anyone contemplating anE collar. I am also the only one on this board who uses one and knows anything about them.
If you find scare stories and condemnations ignore them I would not have the well trained dog I have now if I had listened to them.

If you want to se a real succes story with anE go to P13 of this General thread and read Darrens post called

"Help with a Dog Trainer - Bromley Kent"

Email me anytime and I will be only to pleased to put you on to a REAL'professional' VERY VERY professional trainer, as you might notice not very easy to find. Yes you can get them in UK, to be honest they are so goodI think they should be goverment subsidised. The head vet of the RSPCA uses a static invisible fence system, which is what they are, on his one dog and two cats.

Regards.

Hi yapyap
Would you please explain what happens to the dog when the collar is used, not that it becomes controllable...what physically happens.
Thanks
Tracey

To be quite honest Agiosgsds or whatever, I am not the slightest bit interested in describing any form of training on here. I merely told the poster what I and a growing number of us in UK have found out abut E's, so I gave the accurate information to poster, if you want a course with someone to find out then I will pass their email.

Do you not think it may be useful to explain in a bit more detail. It may be the best thing since sliced bread but only if you know how to open the bag. Having sung it's praise it would be nice if you would explain how it works and if it is suitable for the untrained to use.

[deleted]

I'm with John on this one.

I have never used an ecollar and wouldn't. I've had Rottweilers for 20 years and never had to resort to one - some have been stable temperaments, others aggressive (rescue's).

I can see why people go down this route when they get desperate and I'm not in a position to argue not being an expert on one but in my opinion (for me) the day I think of using one, is the day I would reconsider owning dogs.

Hi Cath

I forgot, I noticed another cheap collar on here and thought I would say this.
There are many different collars with as many different purposes and for as many different types of dogs.

If you get the wrong one it will not work. I would only use one of 4 makes and only one is available here in UK and it is more than £185.
For obedience training pet dogs there are 3 reputable collars suitable in the world giveing the best results.

This highlights the only problem with them and is specific to UK. They are new here and alot of cheap jacks will make the most of it, go ONLY for reputable collars with a proven record, sorry I cannot post more this thread might get locked if I do. I reomend my trainer, he is the only drive stimulation trainer in UK for pet dog owners and man he is an expert.

Jacki, posts get locked or deleted so am not interested in wasting my time except giveing a basic answere to the poster, I don't care what posts get locked but I am not wasting my time on it

Darren, whos post "Help with a Dog Trainer - Bromley Kent" on P13 of this general forum had his post locked, it is the greatest succes story on here and they locked it, so he has no interest anyomre, his dog is trained now why should he or me and MANY others wast time?

I am concerned that you appear to have recommended the use of the collars but not given any more detail on their use or a warning that the user should be trained in their use, if that is the case. I am sure a measured response to my questions would not be locked, but if you do not give more info people could miss use the collar, because it may be thought that you and others have recommended their use.

If you get a poor or bad response to your post it may be locked but neither you or I can control peoples response to contrivirtual posts, it would be nice to think it could be talked about without getting out of hand.

E collar myths and facts:

1. MYTH: You must have perfect timing or be an expert trainer to use an Ecollar

FACT: No one, not the best of trainers, has perfect timing all the time. Even the best trainer can only work for so long, usually a matter of minutes, before his concentration falls off and his “perfect timing” becomes merely “good timing.”

If you have perfect timing, training progresses VERY quickly. If you have good timing, training takes a little longer. If you have so–so timing training takes longer still. If you have HORRIBLE timing, either no training occurs or the wrong training takes effect. Anyone who can train a dog with a leash and collar can use an Ecollar effectively. Even many who aren’t coordinated enough to give a correction can learn to use an Ecollar effectively.

2. MYTH: Ecollars are cruel and FRY the dog with electricity.

FACT: Modern Ecollars have settings so low they can best be described as a tingle, not a shock. This allows a trainer to use low levels that are only uncomfortable (rather than painful) to the dog. This allows the trainer to help the dog become reliable, even under distracting conditions, with virtually no force.

3. MYTH: Ecollar scramble the dog’s brain and do nerve damage.

FACT: Major veterinary universities have tested Ecollars. No evidence of any such damage has ever been found.

4. MYTH: Ecollars have a bad image.

FACT: In reality what has the worst image are methods of dog training which employ force. This means that millions of dogs are being trained entirely with cookies. Yet, most trainers believe that driven dogs will not be reliable under very distracting conditions if a correction has never been applied for ignoring a command.

People who have been training dogs for a long time may remember Ecollars of twenty years ago. They only had one very high setting. So those people may indeed have a negative image in mind. However, today's equipment has many very low settings. Often, dog-owning members of the public become intrigued when they see the happy and well-behaved dogs trained with Ecollars. Used properly an Ecollar can help the dog achieve reliability without force.

5. MYTH: Ecollars can accidentally "go off" even if you haven't touched the transmitter.

FACT: Some of the Ecollars from many years ago actually did react to interference from radio signals. Since that time, all electronic equipment has been improved and refined.

Modern Ecollars offer up to 50,000 random frequencies and do not suffer from accidental discharge.

6. MYTH: In a training group situation, it will be confusing for trainers to have some student'dogs on Ecollars, and others not.

FACT: Ecollar policies vary. In a group situation, it may be best if all newer handlers in the beginning class are on the same page, using similar equipment approved by the club. This may help the instructor understand the reactions and needs of each dog, and assist those handlers.

However, knowledgeable advanced level trainers can use an Ecollar in class without causing any confusion at all for instructors. In all likelihood, the class instructor may simply note that in the right hands, an Ecollar dog is corrected less forcefully than a dog on a choke or pinch collar. The key is that the handler should be knowledgeable about his dog and equipment.

7. MYTH: Based upon seeing an Ecollar on your dog and the fast results, beginners may rush out to buy collars and use them improperly.

FACT: Like any other piece of training equipment, such as a choke chain or pinch collar, an Ecollar can be misused. Used properly, an Ecollar can yield a happy dog who will be reliable under distracting conditions. Knowledgeable trainers recommend that beginners take lessons with trainers who are familiar with the Ecollar, or, at the least, use one of the several videos recommended for this purpose.

8. MYTH: The Ecollar will hurt or scare my dog.

FACT: With the modern methods of introducing the dog to the Ecollar this doesn’t happen. Even people who have trained dogs for years should be open to giving new methods a fair evaluation. To do that, it is often best to observe someone who uses Ecollars with modern methods.

You should not see anything forceful, harsh, painful or scary for the dog. In fact, most of the time, the demonstrating trainer may have to inform you when they have give the dog a correction, because even a trained eye may not notice.

9. MYTH: Ecollars are for punishment training only.

FACT: Years ago when collars only had one setting, some trainers used them only to punish and stop behaviors such as chasing game, digging, or fighting. Today's collars have many low settings, some so low as to feel like a tingle. Some are so low that some people can’t feel them at all. The majority of learning with modern use of Ecollars takes place during the negative reinforcement portion of the experience.

10. MYTH: Using electricity on a dog is just creepy. It reminds me of the electric chair and it will burn my dog's neck.

FACT: Remember that, like fire, electricity can be your friend or your enemy. The Ecollar settings used by trainers today are even less irritating that a static cling shock you might get separating laundry from the drier.

Introduced correctly, the dog learns that the stimulation indicates a "wrong" behavior, and he learns to "turn off" the Ecollar by substituting "correct" behavior. The dogs learn VERY quickly that it’s THEIR behavior that brings the discomfort.

Any reasonable Ecollar trainer will show you that the Ecollar will not hurt your dog. They can show you by applying the Ecollar to their own arm and yours that force and pain are not involved. Modern Ecollar use takes place at the discomfort level, not the pain level.

11. MYTH: If I use an Ecollar to train my dog, I’ll have to use it all the time.

FACT: In this regard the Ecollar is no different than any other type of training device. If you want perfect performance all the time with leash training then you’d better keep the leash on all the time. If you want perfect performance with an Ecollar then you’d better keep it on all the time. But most of us are perfectly happy with performance that’s only 99% perfect. And so after you’re dog is responding reliably to the Ecollar you can take it off until you notice a decline in performance. Then you’ll have to do some refresher training to bring the performance back up. But this is no different than with any other type of training.

12. MYTH: I want my dog to perform because he wants to, not because he afraid of getting a shock.

FACT: Many dogs will perform for this reason. However all dogs are subject to distractions. When something comes along that is a bigger distraction to him than pleasing you, he’ll do what he wants to do. If the distraction is big enough, something to eat, chasing an animal or bird, or playing with another dog, you may not be able to call him away from that distraction.

With modern uses of an Ecollar the dogs aren’t afraid of getting a shock because the stimulation levels used are so low that they aren’t painful, they’re merely uncomfortable. They’re about on the level of discomfort of a fleabite. Dogs aren’t afraid of a fleabite, it just makes them scratch.

If you’ve seen a dog that’s working out of fear of getting a shock you haven’t seen “Modern Ecollar training.”

13. MYTH: You can ruin a good dog with an Ecollar.

FACT: You can ruin a good dog with any training collar. Just about any damage that you do with an Ecollar can be fixed by a good trainer with an Ecollar

14. MYTH: Ecollar training will make my dog robotic.

FACT: Ecollar training will make your training go faster and will give results that last longer. Modern methods of Ecollar training will keep your dog happy as he works. As with any new training method (remember how your dog behaved the first couple of times you gave him a correction with a leash?) you will introduce some confusion. That will disappear in a few days as the dog learns how to shut off the stimulation.

15. MYTH: The Ecollar will cause a relationship of fear between the handler and the K9.

FACT: The Ecollar won’t do this any more than proper use of a leash and collar will create a relationship of fear. In fact, leashes are famous for establishing a relationship of conflict between dogs and handlers since, when you pop a correction on the dog he’s positive where this discomfort came from. Dogs have been known to “climb the leash” to bite the handler after getting sharp corrections. In Ecollar training the leash is just present to gently guide the dog into position while the Ecollar applies the pressure, there is no conflict between the K9 and the handler.

16. MYTH: Ecollars should not be used on “soft” or “aggressive” dogs.

FACT: With proper Ecollar training “soft” or “aggressive” dogs become more confident because they become responsible for their actions. Most “aggressive” dogs are really “defensive.” They’re afraid of being attacked and so they attack first. When their confidence increases they come to realize that they don’t have to bite first.

source: Sergeant Lou Castle.I’m in the US, in the Los Angeles area of California to be specific, and I use the Ecollar as my primary training too. I’ve been using them for about 18 years, mostly to train PSD’s, police service dogs. But I’ve also worked hundred of pet and nearly a thousand SAR, Search and Rescue dogs.

I have no experience of e collars but have been involved in a lively debate on another site, and i will say this.

There are various collars sold in the UK - now a friend had one by PAC, the people who advocate the electric fences?

The collar had 5 settings, and each setting could be lowered or highered. His wife wouldn't volunteer herself so in the interests of research, he use it on himself

He used it on a level within only the first setting - and in his words "it b***** hurt". Pac had told him it would "tingle".

There are some honest people who discuss these collars and state that they do create what they term as discomfort. A dog has a higher concentration of blood salts in its body too, so therefore it will feel more sensitive anyway than what we can feel.

People do get results from e collars, but as they are an aversive, the dog is basicallly working to avoid getting the pain. I am using the word pain because only pain will stop a dog that has previously behaved inappropriately in a very short time. I haven't yet read anything to change my mind over this.

No stimulative didstraction will stop a dog, but it does warn the dog that a more severe corrction will follow if it disobeys.

I too would give up dog training if I had to resort to an electric collar. I would - because I really enjoy the fact that my dog works because she wants to and not because she has to.

I agree haltis etc can be used in a bad way, I don't pretrend to know the answers. My dog has been a barker, very distracted at early training (the attention span of a gnat - but tupical of her breed. ) Loves people too much and so went through a very embarrassing phase of mugging them!!! Strangers!!!

But we are through all this and she will now Sit at 50 paces ( only taught a few days ago) and Down at 150 paces which she has done for a while. This is what ordinary training can achieve, and i consider myself an ordinary owner who is still learning ! :)

Lindsay

Tiyrra, thank you. Very interesting post but can I ask you to add your source to it. You can do so by using your edit button :-)

Tirrya

Is this your own expertise or that of someone else? If the latter then you should credit it to that person - if it is a lift from a written document protected by copyright - you shouldn't post it in this way. It sounds like a sales pitch to me and if it is - then it's not apt for here - but perhaps a link to the relevant web-site is apt so that people can read it for themselves in the full context.

Just because something is used in another country does not mean that it's right or fair or morally defensable. I find the thought of these things barbaric - no matter what you say. The main question in all training tools is that the user is sufficiently competent to be able to use them properly so that the animal does not suffer in anyway.

Pam n the boys

yAPYAP
As so many of us are against the E collar and you seem to use and praise it's use, why then is it so difficult for you you say exactly what physical effect is has on a dog..or is it that you really know that this hsould not be used as a method to train a dog.
AGIOSGSDS
Tracey

Hi everyone, thanks for the answers particularly yapyap, tiyrra and phiney.
I don't take many classes at my club but I'm often responsible for buying the club new leads, haltis, collars, toys, half checks etc. This German Shepherd is quite aggressive and I don't think it's worth buying something like the masterplus collar because I don't think it would have the desired effect. I have seen one used on a Dobe before and was amazed at the results at how the dog stopped flying out at everyone who passed by.
Most dogs in shelters have not been "zapped" by an electric collar but many seem to look like they could do with it to teach them some of the basic manners which could earn them a new home for life.
Cath

/Do you know why the shepherd is aggressive? an e collar may just hide this.

Lindsay

Lindsey,

You mentioned PAC, it would be liable for me to say do not use this OR any other brand name of collar which is not of reputable make and by long standing manufacurers. It is not liable of me to say that I would not use PAC or Bulldog or any of these makes, there are only 4 I would recomend and dare not because it might be deleted.

Tiyarra, It looks like you have the same trainer as me or one of his associates. thank you for posting that, although it only touches the surface of false stories about them, but it will be gone by lunchtime.

Yapyap, you may name the collars that you would recommend but can I ask you to say why you would recommend those particular collars. Let us turn this into an educational thread for once and not a slanging match :-)

NB: Yapyap, If you delete any more of your posts and ruin further threads I will remove your posting rights. I hope that is clear?

HappiAffi

How very very refreshing to see someone actualy running training classes with such an intellegent and enightened approach. There are more dogs in rescue centres now than at anytime in UK history and because positive methods are applied to all dogs. A dog is pleasure and if not dump it is the practicle reallity.

I think my trainer would be willing to come to a class and teach everyone of the dogs drives and stimulation techniques including the use of an E then dogs which benefit from non-corrections could be sperated from those that do in two differnt training classes or groups.

Thank you very much admin.

I would ONLY use collars from the following makes;

Tir-Tronics, Dogtra, Innotek and one called DT systems, however that is not as good as the others.

For pet dog owners the Tri-Tronics Pro 100 or 100xl is the complete obedience collar for pets and high level working or sprts dogs alike, the Innotek, I think model 2003 and a Dogtra with infintae levels but I don't know what model. These are manufacturers with impecable reptations, the products are designed by trainers who understand the dogs psycholgy and are designed with that in mind. I would suggest people take a small or complete course more as an obedience course which includes use of a collar.

It is an unfortunate fact that many anti-ecollar sites have implied you just let one off when the dog is doing something you do not want it to do, FALSE, that is misue, also with aggression ALL the above reputable manufacures recommend you seek help from a traines as the collars themseleves, used willy nilly will not stop aggression. The anti e collar stuff on the net is the problem NOT the collars. The descriptions are INACURATE to the point of being sheer nonsense and WOULD mislead the would be user, maybe thats been done deliberate so mishaps will occure and they can say "Look we told you so"

Thanks admin.

One of the common myths of e-collars is that you can 'keep your finger on the button' thus delivering a continuous zap. Can you and others who have used these collars with success, again confirm that you can not do that with these or any other e-collars? :-)