OK, I am getting into raising Australian Shepherd dogs. I know that it is not a good idea to breed a merle to a merle, and I myself would NEVER do it! However, the breeder who I was looking into to get a puppy from has. She emailed me a few days ago to let me know she had a litter available and I could have first pick... she has had a deposit from me for a year, and I have been awaiting a black tri female. I love the bloodlines she has, but am really warry to get a puppy from this litter(merle to merle) or from her at all after this. I have seen pictures of all the puppies and none are lethal white, but am not sure if this then means they will be all right. Also it is my understanding (and I may be wrong) that a homozygose(sp) merle will only throw merle puppies, again not something I want. Now there are 4 puppies in the litter that are not merle (black tri) will they then only have merle puppies? I just wanted a more professional opinion on this since I am not really trusting the breeder after this M-M breeding... it was always my understanding that this was a HUGE no no with Aussies. She says however that her two were all right to breed together since they have no close relations and there was a very small chance of lethal whites... well apparently she was right(or lucky) about the lethal whites, since there were no lethal white pups. Can someone offer me advice on this subject? I don't want to end up with a bitch that is unsuitable to be bred! Thank you in advance!
QT

I'm sure that Applethorn or one of the other experienced Aussie people will give you their ideas soon - but personally, I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole!! OK, so she mighn't be a lethal white, but if you are planning on breeding further down the line, do you really want a rather "iffy" foundation bitch? At birth, the pups may be fine - but what about the eyes and hearing? That's not going to show until 6 weeks or so - and will this breeder test hearing and eyes? If she is going to risk a M/M breeding, I would think probably not.

I would wait a while longer & get another puppy - you've been waiting for a good while, so a little longer isn't so bad - and at least there are lots of Aussies over there for you to choose from - they're still thin on the ground over here!

Margot.

Breeding merle to merle is a huge gamble
and can and has resulted in blindness and other defects
Some people have done it , culled the defective puppies and kept the ones that were ok
So from then on they only go to tricolour.
So I suppose if they are healthy pups and eyes are ok I guess it will work out for you.
I wish you luck Mari

Hi QT,
You will have no more than the usual risks with a pup from this litter.
The only pups that would be a worry would be the homozygous merles, of which, there were evidently none. The tris do not "carry" the merle gene at all, since it is a dominant and will show if it is present. They are the same as any other tri.
I, however, would still be leary of this "breeder" based simply on the statement that "there is little chance of her two producing double(homozygous) merles". This tells me that she does not know what she is doing as any two merles have a 25% chance of producing double merles. It is a simple Mendelian formula.
If she does not understand something as basic as color inheritance, perhaps she is not all that knowledgeable about the more important aspects of mate selection.
All in all, I would be on guard, get second and third opinions and perhaps keep looking.
TiaLee

Thank you all for your opinions! You all basically confirmed what I was thinking! I have informed her that I am not interested in a puppy from her any longer, due to the M/M breeding she has done. I do not know if I will get my deposit back, but oh well. She did come highly recommended and has all the tests done before breeding, also this is the first M/M breeding she has ever done. I am now looking into other breeders that have the same or similar bloodlines. I was really leaning toward not purchasing a puppy from her, but I guess I just needed to confirm that my thoughts were justified(since I suspect I will not get my deposit back). It is rather disappointing though, the red tri bitch I have is from this breeder. She came healthy and happy, and has grown into a gorgeous bitch(she turned 1 year today).

At any rate, I have decided to look elsewhere. Waiting a while longer isn't a problem.. I am willing to wait to get the quality and bloodlines I want.

QT

Actually even a puppy that is normally coloured merle can infact be a double merle. A double merle isn't always white. I personally wouldn't consider a puppy out of this litter either.
Could luck in finding a new breeder.
Bec

Hi QT,
Just out of curiousity, what is the breeding behind the litter?? My own bitches are from American lines, so just curious as to what blood lines you like........
Gabrielle.

The bitch I have is Las Rocosa line bred. I am looking for Patchwork, Propwash, Heatherhill, Bayshores, Briarbrooks, or Windermeres. Yeah I know those are a lot of bloodlines... but they all seem to intertwine a lot. Except maybe Patchwork, but I really am impressed with them. I have done more research and am also now looking into the Fieldmasters bloodlines. I guess I just want the best that is available to me. What do you think? Do these bloodlines look good to you? I have the winnings lists from 2002 and I see these names are still winning a lot of Best of show and STD champions. Well, I am still looking for another breeder and researching bloodlines, I am pretty new to this so I hope I am doing the right things. Thank you all so much for your help!
QT

Hi QT, my own bitches have all those lines you mentioned in their pedigree apart from Patchwork, that is a very old pedigree apparently. I love some of the Propwash and Heatherhill stock. Heatherhill has been a big influence on some very nice stock that is being shown and also bred in this country........
Are you looking for an aussie to show or to work on stock??
Which breeders have you contacted??
Gabrielle x

Hi QT

Sorry for my slow response but slight technical problems ! LOL

Tialee's post was very informative as to your chances of your puppy being defective.

In my opinion Merle to Merle breedings are acceptable IF they are being done for the right reasons very often you can be in a situation where the best dog for your bitch is a merle dog ... breeders face the dilemma .-- go for the "safer" option of the Tri dog who is of lesser quality than the beautifully constructed sound moving Merle dog .. I know if faced with this dilemma what I would do , I would take quality every time , breeding for the betterment of the breed. But being aware that I would have to deal with the possible problem of homozygous merles. Thats why merle to merle breedings are not for the faint hearted and are only usually done by experienced breeders.

QT if you take a look behind your aussie pedigrees you will notice that there are lots and lots of merle to merle breedings in our foundation stock , this was due to a small breeding gene pool where merle to merle had to be done for our breed to advance.

So don't be too hard on your breeder, perhaps you should sit down and discuss why she feels she needs to use the merle dog , if her answer is that she feels he is the only dog that will compliment her bitch that is of sufficient quality then don't discount a puppy from this cross just because it is a merle to merle ... if you are taking a tricolour puppy you will have no problems regarding homozygous merling.

Hope this has been of help to you. I know looking for that right puppy is a hard decision, the kennels & lines you are looking for are all favourites of mine especially when they are crossed together , I have a bitch who is Las Rocosa /Touchstone bred A dog who is Heatherhill/Thornapple , another male who is Propwash/Bayshore/Thornapple , a male who is a combnation of Heatherhill, Las Rocosa/Touchstone & Thornapple. And I love all of My wiggle butts !!!!

Applethorn

Thank you very much for the information! I have talked to the breeder and she has explained her reasons for breeding the two merles. It is my understanding that she consulted Mr. Hartnagle personally about the breeding before hand, since she purchased both animals from him. They are really both beautiful dogs, I will not be getting a puppy from this litter however, I just don't feel comfortable with it and am not prepared to buy a puppy I am not 100% sure of. I am on her waiting list for this particular bitches next litter though, but for a blue merle male instead. I also have contacted a few other breeders about a black tri bitch. I have contacted Bofelli, Bayshore themselves, and River Wind Kennels among others. The lady from Riverwind was very kind and helpful, she is going to Nationals this weekend and is going to ask around about a puppy for me! I thought that was really beyond the call of kindness and am very impressed with her dogs as well. I have also applied to be on a waiting list with her and hope that I can get a red merle male in the next year or so, she has a Bayshore/Thornapple bitch who I would like a puppy out of. I think it would make a nice cross to my Las Rocosa bitch.

I do have another question for you, Applethorn, is Las Rocosa as highly regarded as Bayshore, Propwash, ect? I am under the impression that they are, or else are very close to being that highly regarded. I just wanted to know for sure. Thank you so much for all your help! I still have a lot to learn... I suppose I never will stop learning about these dogs, you never can know it all can you?!

Hi QT

The lady you spoke to at the Riverwind Kennel would be karen Wilson , I know Karen very well , I met karen at the Texas nationals in 1999 and have stayed friends ever since she is a great person ! I will be meeting up with her again next Monday as I am due to fly out to the Aussie Nationals in Michigan, my best friend Gabrielle is also comig out with us it will be her first Aussie Nationals my 4th, and I can't wait.

Yes Las Rocosa are VERY highly thought of they are one of the founder kennels for the Aussie , I have attended seminars given by Carol Ann Hartnagle & her father Ernest, I have the deepest respect for these people. Bayshore and Propwash are also big kennels with excellent records and dogs all the successful lines in the kennels you mentioned , bayshore , Propwash , Heatherhill Briarbrook are very experienced breeders with lots of knowledge these people are the " mentors" that we can learn from.
You can learn lots from studying the pedigrees of their successful dogs, to see how and what they bred together to produce the type, movement and temperament.

Good luck in your quest for your foundation bitch and dogs !

If we can be of any further help please don't hesitate to ask .. asking questions is good !
Its the way we all learn I am still learning about the aussie , lines, pedigrees, history .. I just can't get enough , and I have Lots more to learn myself , but am always willing to share what I have learned.

Applethorn

"If we can be of any further help please don't hesitate to ask .. asking questions is good !
Its the way we all learn I am still learning about the aussie , lines, pedigrees, history .. I just can't get enough , and I have Lots more to learn myself , but am always willing to share what I have learned.

Applethorn "

For those who think that top winning show people are unapproachable, just look at this generosity to share knowledge!!

Quite agree, she is one in a million and has an absolute minefield of knowledge going round in her head!!!!!!! :-):-)

Gabrielle x

This has been my experience3 with both breeds that I have been involved with. I never did get to the breeding stage with my firsat breed, and had the bitch spayed due to discovering her M0others brother had epilepsy, which one of her sisters later developed also. I also was going through family upheaval.

When I first got involved with my pres4ent breed and started attending shows, a person who had been around a few years asked me why it was that I was'in' with all the 'old biddies' in the breed. By this he meant those who had immersed themselves in the br4eed for decades!

I told him thatas a rank Novice I wanted to learn, and the best way was to go to the sourrce. these Biddies in many cases had known most of the dogs in my pedigree, and were able to tell me about quirks character traits, and the sort of offspring they produced.

Didn't I tell you that Applethorn would have the answers for you, QT?? ....and it just shows how much of a novice I am - and people like Jayne are wonderful -they share their knowledge and skill with the rest of us - who dream of one day, just maybe, we'll have a dog to show like Lorenzo!!

Margot

thank you for all your nice comments !!! ( very embarrassed now ..LOL)

I have always maintained that knowledge should be shared and used to educate others, how will any breed advance if knowledge isn't shared , we were all beginners once I have been very foruntate to have met and been mentored by some very experienced breeders, especially my mentor and best friend Ellen Brandenburg ( Thornapple) . But also other very experienced people in the US , these people are the people I have the utmost respect for ..

I have also been lucky that I had special people Like Ann Chadwick ( Hallbower Schipperkes) and the Late Mick Boles ( Kassalmak Rotties & Schipps) who taught me a lot of the practical things I know. To these people I owe everything for taking the time to share their knowledge with someone like me.

Gabrielle will tell you I may be honoured to share my life with a top winning dog , but my feet are firmly on the ground I am just a regular person , normal as can be lol !! I am like you all with a thirst for knowlege I read everything , books articles, watch videos ,discussion lists but most of all I listen and learn. Anyone who wants to know anything , no matter how stupid it seems feel free to ask me , I will always try to answer any questions you have , if I don't know I will ask those who do.

If you don't ask you will never know !

Applethorn

I totally agree with what everyone has said. Applethorn you are one in a million. Being a new breeder I have tried to get help from quite a few people. Many will simpley snub a new breeder and accuse them of starting a puppy mill. I have been told that more than once. I am not doing that though, if that were all I wanted to accomplish I certainly would not go out of my way to find the right bloodlines or pay the prices I do for my foundation dogs. At anyrate, thank you for being so willing to help and so accepting of a new breeder!!
Jaimie~ aka QT

Just a "quiet" word, QT, from one who has been involved for around 20 years!! Don't buy too many dogs now. Once you start breeding, you'll want to keep the best you've produced to breed on from. I know that you have plenty of space but it's VERY easy to find that you have TOO many dogs in a very short space of time!!

Val,
Thank you for that word of warning. I have been considering that lately. I may just buy one male now and to help cut down. After all once I have kept daughters I won't really be able to use the males over and over. I do need at least one though, I am in an area where no one registers the dogs they raise, very sad and not acceptable. I also do not have the option of traveling long distances for a mating when the bitch comes into heat since we run a dairy farm.... have to be here almost 24/7 to milk them. We are planning to quit milking in the next 5 years or so, then I will be able to show my dogs and take the bitches elsewhere for breedings, until then I must have my own dog. I do appreciate that warning though, it made me stop and realize what could happen! Thank you!
QT

QT ;)