Hi, I'm new here but have a quick question. We are using a new, inexperienced stud dog (18 month old labrador) who is very excited and willing but keeps getting the wrong end. Any advice? He has tried once or twice to mount her back end, but never got close enough to get the job done. He then goes back to the front of her over and over. I left her there today in hopes that they will get it figured out. The stud dog owner is keeping an eye on them while I try to figure out some help? I'd appreciate any help, thanks!
Tracey

Hi
You neeed to stand and hold the bitch at her head end so that end is not a option!
let them play together first so he is keen and when he starts trying to moutn hold the bitch and push her rear end towards him , he will have to get used to being helped by his handler incase in the future he gets a nervous or unwilling bitch.

hi
as the other poster has said with a maiden dog they need a little help and guidence and if you or the other party have little experience, if the bitch is not ready she could get snappy and this could put a young dog off so you do need two of you, one to hold the bitch steady and one to help guide the dog, it would also be wise to hold them together to make sure you have a good tie, some people like to turn the dog so as they are back to back as a good tie can last from 10 mins to 50-60 mins.hope all the relavant tests have been done for your breed and that both parties take a lifetimes care for all puppies produced, regards tina

If the bitch is not ready/is not willing do not carry on because this is rape. Anybody who condones mating an unwilling bitch is.....well, words fail me.

what a stupid and ignorant statment to make,please read both the posts, it is obvious that if they knew what they were doing they would not be asking for advice,if it is two maiden dogs i would certainly want them helped and the bitch held incase of a accident if the bitch has not had a pre mate and owners are unsure of the correct dates, a bitch that is not ready can get snappy,no one is suggesting that you forse two dogs together, i would say that would be near inpossible if the dog is not interested, there is noway they would mate,find it hard to believe someone with your experience would make sutch a statement, regards tina

jeangenie
I am amazed!!!!!
you obviously dont breed yourself in which case you shouldnt be adding your opinion.
It would be impossible to hold down and rape so you call it a st bernard! even if the guest or any of the posters had suggested he did!!!!
The poster had said both dog and bitch were maiden so it is advisable for them both to held firmly to avoid injury during the tie and to guide the dog during the mating, nobody suggested raping the bitch as the bitch is already standing may i suggest you actually take the time to read the posts before launching a attack on the posters and if you are as you seem completely ignorant regarding breeding dont bother to post unless you have some constructive help
No one would ever rape a bitch but sometimes maiden bitches do not like the weight of the dog on there back and have to be held to stop them running off or sitting down but no one is suggesting they should rape as you put a bitch who isnt ready normally if the bitch isnt ready the dog isnt interested anyway but I do know this isnt always the case especially in maiden studs

I'm sorry to have to disabuse you of the idea, Kate, but there were several cases some years ago where a stud owner (in a large breed) recommended that bitches that were brought to be mated and would not accept the dog, for whatever reason, were drugged and tied to a bench so that they couldn't move If that isn't rape, I don't know what is.

When I first started breeding nearly 30 years ago more experienced people warned me to be on my guard for this and not accept it as normal.

Certainly hold the bitch's head to steady her, but no force should ever be used.

Quoting from a book about dog breeding published in 1964 "It is not uncommon for forced matings to take place, either because the breeder is in a hurry or simply from ignorance of the psychological and physiological factors involved in the animals concerned. Animals are not machines and forced matings are rape. Moreover they are unlikely to be successful"

this all makes me very nervous, sas goes to the stud dog today on day 11. i understand that i may need to hold her as she is a maiden bitch. im not sure if she is ready or not, though there is tail movement if i sweep my hand over her back end so fingers crossed.

Fingers crossed it will go well for you. She may well play 'hard to get' but you will be able to tell if she is just nervous and coy, or definitely unwilling. If she is starting to swish her tail, that is promising :). You should certainly be asked to steady her head, and once the tie is accomplished the dog will need steadying as well so that neither pulls away too soon.

Always bear it in mind that you may have to go back in a day or two, either for a repeat mating or another go at the first! If it's a repeat you will no doubt be astonished at her change in attitude (as long as it all went well the first time). From prim maiden to floozy!

:)

Hi Sashas mum
Please try not to worry all good stud owners will know if you bitch is ready or not and yes you will probally need to hold her head to keep her steady but you certainly shouldnt have to (and I wouldnt) pin her down! if she is flagging her tail the fingers crossed she should be ready if the stud dog is experiance he will know his job and so should his handler
Good luck and let us know how you get on
Cheers kate

Hi Jeangenie
SORRY- sounds like i owe you a apology how terrible I really didnt think there were people out there who were stupid /cruel enough to force a bitch to be mated if she wasnt ready, apparently I was very wrong and I quite agree with you in such a case it is nothing other than rape.
You learn more everyday and im sorry if i doubted your ability as a breeder and as admin has pointed out in future I will make sure I add a warning to such posts
This site never ceases to amaze and shock me a cant belive there are so many cruel , money grabbing people out in the dog breeding circle.
kate

Kate and Tina, people tend to take the written word literally. Just a thought but maybe in future you could add a piece to your posts when offering advice of this nature, that warns against the dangers of forced matings? :-)

Maybe you could explain to novices when help becomes force? For first time breeders who have no experience in such matters, the degree of help needed would be very difficult to gauge?

Jeangenie, do you remember the case of the mastiff 'breeders' who placed a reluctant bitch over a ladder so that she was unable to move and thus be mated? :-(

Yes, Admin, I remember that case very well (that bitch was sedated too, if I remember right) and after all this time it still makes my blood boil. When I read in those posts about "if the bitch is not ready she could get snappy" - and so she should - and dogs possibly being encouraged to mate unwilling bitches, it reminded me of how far some people will go to get a litter of pups.

Fortunately cases like that are few and far between, but I'm sure it still happens with unscrupulous people. I'm not suggesting for one minute that anyone posting here would go that far, but I imagine more people read these posts than write them, and if even one thinks it's okay to do things like that......

jeanjeanie.
"it makes my blood boil when posters say"that a bitch can get snappy" so you are the fountain of all knoledge are you, i read most of your posts but would not be so arrogant as to say that what you say in your posts are wrong or flame them, this board is supposed to be for people to give suggestions and try to help, it is up to the individual to read through posts and come to there own conclusion,if you had read the posts i will say again in answer to the original post no one suggest that forse should be used,and as the other poster also said some maiden bitches may not like the weight of a dog on them for the first time even if they have had a pre-mate and are bang on there dates, it is impossible to forse a dog and bitch to mate, i feel that as jeanjeanie had replyed to my post and not the original poster it was dirrected at myself and the other poster and was uncalled for, people will leave this board again if one person dominates the board and flames and dissmisses peoples suggestions and uses scare mongering tactics, by all means warn people of unscrupulous methods, but please do not direct it at individual posters, regards tina

Hi Tina,
I'm not trying to antagonise anyone, but I feel very strongly that if a bitch is not ready or willing to be mated then the dog should not be encouraged further until the bitch is indeed ready. If she is not willing, and the mating is achieved, then logically some coercion must have been used. Sadly, as Admin too remembers in at least one of these cases, it is indeed possible to force a dog and bitch to mate.

My post to Admin also had a full stop between my sentences, which makes them read very differently. Instead of "it makes my blood boil when I read those posts" it was "....after all this time it still makes my blood boil. When I read in those posts about xxxxx it reminded me ...." A completely different meaning I think you'll agree.

I hope this clarifies matters. There is no personal attack involved.

Hi,
Jeangenie,
I have to say, i agree with you there, and no, rape is not too harsh a word to use!!!!!!!!!

You cannot, and should not, for health reasons, AND ethical reasons, force a bitch and dog to mate when one or other party does not want to, and yes, anyone who would do that, well, words fail me also!

Em

Well I think it is sick how people force dogs such as drug them or place them over a ladder just so a mating can take place :(

I agree the bitch may need alittle help to staedy her but to force her to do something she is clearly not interested in so cruel, whether the bitch is ready or not if she does not want to be mated people should just execpt that,

I completely agree. And I hope those that doubted you have a bit of a rethink. Tina - I thought your remarks were well out of order, considering you didn't qualify what J/G was actually saying first.

can i just remind you that jeanjeanie replyed to my post as it was in my reply box and did not reply to the original poster with her reply, and if you or admin can find anywere in my or kates post that either of us suggest that forse or "rape" be used i will be also amazed, please read the posts again, regards tina

I wasn't querying your advice. I just thought that you were out of order by saying that JeanG's post was "ignorant and stupid" without prequalifying what she meant. If you had posted to her and said "are you under the impression that I am advocating forcing a bitch to mate a dog" and she had said "yes" then I could understand why you would be upset. I saw JeanG's post as a general one - and I think you have taken it personally.

Hi All,
Well from my own experience i have never forced a bitch to mate with a dog if she was unwilling, i would however hold the bitchs colar when the dog was inside her & ready for tying so the bitch didn't spin on the dog & cause him or herself injury, but once they have tied after 2 minutes or so i'd leave them both backend to backend & wait till they seperated.
But at no point should anyone intervene & force 2 dogs to mate especially when the bitch isn't ready & the dog will know this & he would be unwilling to serve her anyway unless he was an absolute sex mad lunatic.
In the past i had many bitchs come for matings that were not either ready or in season properly so i would send them home or let them leave the bitch with me for a few days because when a bitch is ready for mating (even a maiden bitch) she will stand for any dog without you interefering or fussing too much.
I once had a rottweiller bitch who would always let you know when she was ready by sticking her backside to the kennel door of our mini schnauzer male:D sorry just imagining rottweillers with beards & eyebrows lol.
Good luck & i'm sure it'll work out if not they are young enough to try again next time:)
Jenny.

Hi,
I was the original poster. Actually it was only the stud dog who was inexperienced. My bitch is four years old and more then willing and expereinced. She has been doing everything she can to persuade the inexpereinced, overlyexcited stud. He was also very willing he just couldn't figure out the right end. We never tried to force them, they happily played all day but never mated. He just wasn't "getting it." I took her to a different experienced stud today (after a trip to the vet) that has a wonderful reputation and pedigree and they tied about two minutes after they met. I will have an ultrasound done in about 3-4 weeks and hopefully we'll be having some wonderful pups in June.
Tracey

Glad to hear it all went well in the end! 'New boys' often get the wrong end of the stick, as it were. It sounds as though for his next try his owner will have to make sure the bitch's owner stays at her head to make that end unavailable and point him in the right direction!

Good luck with the pups. :)

Thanks, I am very excited, he's a great looking stud! As for the other inexperienced stud, when we tried to hold her head still and move him around he would just get down. We tried many times over the past two days and each time we tried to "help out" he would get down. We thought maybe if we just left them to their own devices they would figure it out. Each time my bitch tried to spin around under him to get him to the right end he would just walk around her to the front end again! She was quite a trooper yesterday, and I am sure very frustrated, so I'm glad it went well today.
Tracey

to dinkydonks
I am pleased you have managed to get them mated and lets all keep our fingers crossed that you will have some lovely puppies soon.
Do St bernards have large litters I just wondered as they are such big dogs !!!

To all
I m glad to say that dispite the little argument that has being going on we obviously all have the best of intentions and concern for the dogs welfare so at least that gives us some common ground on this forum I bet the poor poster wondered what she had walked into
cheers everyone
kate

Hi,
I'm not sure where the St. Bernard came from, but my dogs are Labradors :o) Our bitchs' last litter was 9 so hopefully we'll get about the same. I am keeping my fingers crossed! As for walking onto a board and "seeing" all the different personalities that doesn't surprise me. I am not new to message boards and E-mail lists. In fact, I am the owner of a wonderful list of 122 people from all over the world, on Haitian adoption. I think what most people don't seem to remember is that everyone is new at some point in their life to every topic. When we started out adopting from Haiti I had no idea what I was getting into. I had lots of questions and ran into many wonderful people who helped me along. Now, I help other people through the adoption process, and have a beautiful 5 year old daughter from Haiti. We all have to start somewhere. I have horses, miniature donkeys, dogs and cats, not to mention 5 kids. I am not new to breeding (myself or animals LOL) but I had not experienced this problem before. I really appreciate all the people who responded in kindness to my post. Thanks!
Tracey

Hi Dinkydonks
I dont know what made me think your bitch was a st bernard I think I must be going mad!
anyway fingers crossed for you
kate