We often blame unethical breeding and selling of puppy's for the poor dogs in rescue.

Control breeding, make breeders legally bound to rehome what they breed, make puppy farmers lives difficult, ban the sale of pups through Retail outlets. All these are put forward as ways of stopping the problem.

I have just sudde4nly thought that generally few people blame the buyer/consumer!!!!!

Commercial dog breeding is market driven. They will breed and sell the breeds that there is a ready market for, and some will cater for the rarity seekers with overpriced fashionable rare breeds or strange crosses!

The price of puppies being too high I have seen discussed, which somne complain make a pedigree dog out of the reach of many pockets, but still puppies are bought, and abandoned even when substantial amounts are paid for them??????

It is even worse with mongrel pups, easy come easy go, get another one for £50 when you get back from holiday, cheaper to put the old one in resuce than bothering to board!!!

So how do we educate the vast majority of would be puppy buyers, the majority of whom will not be reading this or any other canine board, dog paper etc. :(

I don't really think you can teach the minority of "dog abandoners" that a dog is for life, any more than you can teach the minority how to be good parents. When people treat their children with such cruelty (for example the man who killed himself after being found guilty of murdering his two little children) what hope is there of teaching them to treat their animals any better?

I was talking to a woman who runs the local rescue centre.. who was telling me about a woman (business suit, flash car, long red nails) who went along and picked up a lurcher type and took it home. She brought it back within 2 hours complaining it had "run all over her cream carpet, de-potted her yukka, and jumped on her grand piano". What possessed the rescue service to let her have a dog in the first place, and what possessed her to get one??!

But how can we educate people that a dog is for life when breeders are more than happy to palm off their stock when it is no longer 'viable' i.e. too old to breed any more, not quite what I expected as a puppy etc etc? It seems to me that breeders are happy to preach the 'dog is for life' bit as long as it doesn't apply to them with their has beens.
Bec

I have yet to meet any decent breeder who has put their oldies or not up to show standard run ons into resuce. what I am talking about is responsibility for the dog, not whether the dog actually stays with you for life.

Yes peoples circumstances change, but so many seem happy to let someone else deal with the problem. they bought/bred the do9g they should be responsible for finding it a permanenet home, and be there if it doesn't work out, it's their dog and their responsibility. Many don't even refer back to the breeder, and the first thing the breeder knows is if the dog goes into breed rescue, and it is recognised by vhip, tattoo, or detective work.

I agree peoples circumstances do change but my point is that how do we teach people that a dog is a lifetime commitment if the people who breed them don't treat them as such? If breeders treat their dogs as throw away commodities can we blame joe public if they do the same?
Bec

Bec...
I think you're being a tad harsh on Breeders. Most breeders treat their dogs as one of the family, as their "children", and are grandparents to each litter...breeders that get rid of their old breeding bitches are exactly the kind of breeders that cause the problems we are discussing here, and that no-one condones!

Actually I think, and from my experience, the opposite is true. Nearly every one of the breeders that I know or have contacted will and have got rid of dogs that no longer 'fit the bill', some have got rid of 6 or 7 dogs in as many years but still buy in or breed and keep puppies. Very very few have actually retained all those that they have bought in or bred till the end of their days.
Bec

I don't think anybody can keep all the dogs they breed! Not in breeds with large litters, anyway! That is why they have "puppies occasionally for sale". It would be wonderful if my bitches had just the one puppy I wanted to keep!

However I know very very few (maybe 3) who have rehomed adult dogs they have bred.

Edited to clarify: but they will all take back and rehome pups that have fallen on hard times.

Hi JeanG

True - they will all take pups back...but how many will return *any* money? I am not saying they should, but if someone is say, getting divorced and can no longer keep the dog and is financially in trouble, then they are going to sell the dog for £150 in the paper as opposed to return it to the breeder.

I'm not generalising here - just saying its a contributing factor.

CHloe :)

I didn't think of that aspect, Chloe. :(

But it's hard enough parting with 8-week old pups; I can't imagine parting with an adult dog (which is one reason why I don't puppy-walk for the Guide Dogs) anyway, but if the worst came to the worst I would far rather they went back to someone who already had a space for them in their hearts than to a total stranger.

Getting money for them would be like the "30 pieces of silver". But that's me, a sentimental old fool.

I know what you mean... but to give an example a friend of mine bought a pedigree kitten for £500. He had him neutered straight away, £90. The problem was that the kitten couldn't fit in with his other four cats - the kitten was a very boisterous breed and the persians hated him. So he went back to the cat breeder and asked he to find a new home for the kitten, which she did.

He got £60 for a 6 month old pedigree. He went back to the breeder to get him a good home, knowing full well he could probably of got £300 through the paper.... not everyone would be as responsible as him (and who's to say the breeder didn't make money twice?)

Chloe

It is possible to put a vetted prospective owner in touch with the owner that needs to rehome, and in this case any financial transaction that occurs is between them, and usually around 1/2 to 2/3rds of the puppy price depending on age.

In the cases where I have had a dog bred by me back physically to find it a suitable home they have gone free of charge, as I don't feel I can sell on a dog for whom I do not have full details of upbringing and experience.

Most people would view such a dog a s a resue and expect not to pay for it.

The relinquishing owner should be interested in ensuring a good home.

Yes, *should be* but are not always.

And therein lies a reason for so many dogs being passed around and ending up in rescue.

Have you always kept EVERY dog you have bought Bec until it's dying day?

Yes.
Bec

Hi Bec

I must have got confused then as there was a post on here where you listed what you had in Feb :

"I'm like Julia my dogs can go where they please but I do expect them to move over on the settee when I want to sit down! My tally is me, 1 Boxer, 2 Boxer crosses, 1 Parson Russell, 1 Schipperke, 1 Mini Poodle and a Mini Dachshund on the bed!"

From your web site though I thought you had multiple parsons and 2 Schippeke ? A total of about 11 dogs ?

Did you mean that those are your house dogs and the rest are outside or something ?

SaraW :)

I own 13 dogs, the others are 'fighters' or in Winstons case have bad legs and need to be kept separate so are crated and/or kenneled depending on the weather. 5 Parsons, 2 Schips, 2 Poodles, 2 Boxer crosses, 1 Boxer and 1 Mini Dachs. The 8 in that posting referred to those that share my bed :D
Bec

I don't know how manage Bec
Two's enough for me (for now anyway lol) ;)

Sara :)

but didnt you advertise in the evening echo, free to good home male castrated parsons jack russell no other pets or children

Unfortunately there is a correlation between those who abuse their animals and those who abuse/ have been abused at home...there is very little we can do with this minority, as it is not rescue centres that see the results but the RSPCA and Social services.
People such as the woman you describe do not harm the dog, but are completely unsuitable for ownership - they have no idea of what having a dog entails - and are not prepared in the slightest! Home checks and detailed ground work by rescue centres put off the casual owner to a degree!

I would like to mention the owners that do put dogs in rescue/ homes etc thinking its the best solution to rehoming their dogs . Maybe they are ill , cannot afford to keep their dog , look after their dogs for whatever reason . They may not intend to have to give their dog away when they first buy it but no one knows what life will throw at them .
I know what you mean with regard to idiots ( i keep using this word as i cannot think of a better name for them ) who buy a "cute" puppy and find as it grows it is too much hard work or it makes a mess of the house or even that the dog wants "walkin" - heaven forbid !!! :(
People only breed because there is a market - just like the sweet shop seller only buys sweets because people want sweets. If there wasnt the market there wouldnt be any pups
I have said time and time again IT IS TOO EASY TO BUY A PUPPY/DOG
and i wholeheartedly agree with Chloe - some people dont even care for their own children so why would they care for a dog better ?
The wrong breed in the wrong hands is a dangerous combination and unfortunately it is the dog or the breed that suffers not the idiot owner !!! :(
Can anyone come up with a way to stop idiots getting their hands on dogs ?
Lel

Though most breeders act responsibly and check the homes their pups are going to, and rescue centres do home checks/compatability tests, there is nothing that will stop unethical trade in dogs - ignorant potential owners fall prey to unscrupulous (sp?!) breeders. Though the price of pedigree pups is restrictive, there are plenty of people with money and no brain! It is market driven - campaigns such as "A dog is for Life" do some good, but its not reaching the people that really need to listen. How do we stop it? A registering programme would only be followed by owners/breeders who are already acting responsibly, vets can only educate those who take their animals for check-ups, the internet has little regulation on site content. I guess by increasing the profile of ethical breeders/rescue centres etc. that can cater for all the 'market', we can out-compete the scum, and be able to educate along the way? If every breeder asked a potential owner if they could cope when the cute puppy turns into an OAP that didn't have NHS and kept peeing on the carpet (not to mention the damage they will immediately do on getting home!), maybe more people will have that invaluble second thought!!

I know of two rescue/rehoming kennels where as long as you turn up with adoption fee you could any dog you like, no home check or anything.

My hubby's ex went to one of these places a few years ago completely unaware of all what we talk about and paid £65 for a "cute" little puppy, after a couple of days the pup got really sick they took it to vet's and it was diagnosed with parvo.They demanded a refund but got no joy, and the pup died four days later. This place is still up and running as I know of somebody who bought a boxer from there recently, he lives in a third floor flat, where it's against the tenancy agreement to keep pet's.

This place did use used to part of the rspca used to work there years ago, then the rspca took over it, so whether it's still there's or not i'm not sure.

Alison

im not sure how you can sort this one out.

I think it is too easy to buy a dog from the WRONG place, and for the majority, too hard, and too expensive to buy one from the RIGHT place.

Unfortunately, i think we will find, unless something is done to make getting in contact with the right places easier, and more likely, then it will continue.
What i mean is, a lot of people who want a dog, from what ever background, unless it is a doggy one, would not know where to start.
It IS much easier to find a backyard breeder, rescue that does not homecheck/charge high prices, or a puppy superstore, than it is to locate a breeder, visit a litter several times, and pay the price of the pup.
Especially when you consider that these people dont even know what they are looking for, wouldnt understand things like KC reg fully, or 'licensed breeder'. They wouldnt know that just cos a dog has a lot of show winners in its pedigree, it doesnt give any kind of guarantee that the pup wil be a good one or a bad one.

Education is the key, and i think that puppy prices have got a lot to do with it as well!

Em

Theemx

You are so right. I am a homevetter for a local animal sanctuary (I vet for dogs) and during an interview with one couple (smashing couple actually) the husband said it would be easier to adopt a child!

We do have occasion to turn down people who
a) are blatantly unsuitable and have no idea what they would be taking on
b) We feel are "not right" literally a gut instinct
c) Wrong dog for that particular situation

However, we all know for a fact that these people can go down to the local pet shop and buy a "crossbreed" puppy for less than it costs to adopt one of our dogs. A good percentage of these will then go to swell the ranks of the rescue centre, probably in less than six months time. That's not to say it's only xbreeds and mongrels, plenty of pedigree are put into rescue between 6months and 2yrs, totally out of control. In fact a German Shepherd dog came into the rescue centre, because the people who had bought him didn't realise he was going to grow so big DER!

What can you do?

Kat

Does anyone know if the numbers of rescue/abandoned dogs is increasing ? The general throw-away attitude of society at the moment, crossed with more and more working mums, marriage break-ups and the 'must have' set can't be helping. So many parents buy something for the children on a whim and probably genuinely think that they can cope with them.

Also, I know that with my older rescue dog I had more than a few times when I cried because we didn't seem to be making any headway with his problems - but I would never have taken him back to Battersea. I am lucky to have few domestic problems compared to a lot of modern families - unfortunately, a dog probably comes pretty near the bottom of the list if a family is going through breakups etc and so the dog is the first to go. Many families find having children hard enough to cope with :(

Perhaps breeders need a crystal ball when deciding who to sell a pup to.

Daisy

You're right, there are more and more people who abandon their dogs - it is increasing.
I can say however, that not all of us mums are bad *lol*. I just had triplets before Christmas, and have two older kids too, and for many that would be an excuse to rehome their dog, but we're managing just fine with her, and giving her plenty of time too. Luckily I stay at home (who could work with triplet babies anyway!), so she gets as much attention as she used to. She's loving being a second mum to the babies.
What I mean is there is definitely a throw away attitude nowadays, and I dont think having a baby is a good excuse to get rid of a dog. Unless of course the dog is extremely unhappy, but even then, perhaps they should think about it before adopting a dog, whether or not it could cope with the kids they had planned....I know what I mean - words dont come out right!
You see all the time in the free ads (of all places!) "being rehomed due to child's allergy"...come on there cant be that many dog allergic kids in the UK!
Lisa
xx

Wow, triplets! You can't have time to get bored!

I couldn't agree more about the "allergic" kids. I reckon it's more likely the parents being "allergic" to the work involved in looking after a dog properly. But then I'm a cynic.

:)

Jeangenie
You cynical........surely not ;):)

Wow, you must have your hands full !

I agree as people just do not research enough when they get a dog and it is all too easy to give a dog up when things get 'a bit tough'.If people had more patience and commitment then the problems could be resolved ending up having a loving important member of the family. If people went into dog ownership with more responsibilty then hopefully the problem would lessen but I feel not alot, as there are too many ways to get a dog easily, lets face it anybody can get a dog. I do not think there is an answer to this problem unfortunately.

Lucy

The thing is - if you wanted a new sofa or the like , you would look around for the right one but people just say " arrr I want a puppy - thats cute" and buy it . :( Well Not everyone I should add .
A dog is hopefully with you a LONG time so you have to choose the right breed and be aware of its shortcomings and its needs .I personally , could never give up on a dog I owned unless I had tried every piece of advice I had ever been given and still got nowhere or unless it had bitten some one but some people change dogs merely because they go out of fashion- I had a next door neighbour like this and it infuriated me . He had a dog for a couple of months and got bored so he would "give it away" and get another the week after . Poor dogs :(
Lel

What gets me is all the ads in loot etc advertising 6 month old dogs "genuine reason for sale".They are hardly going to write c**p reason for sale!iI am amazed at the amount there are all dotted inbetween the ads for puppies-mostly staffie puppies I might add-are they popular at the moment for some reason?(they are lovely dogs but I am just curious)

I do think it all comes down to education. and before any one else says it, no i have no idea how to educate the people that are causing the problem!

The people that advertise in Loot, i daresay have absolutely no idea where else to advertise.
The people that take on dogs that will become a problem due to the type of dog it is! These are the people that think a dog is a dog, end of story. They dont know WHY a dog like a Mal is gonna be headstrong and stroppy at 18 months old. They wouldnt know WHY a Dobie could end up nervy. As far as dogs go, Staffs are hard, as are all the bull breeds, and it pretty much stops there.

When it comes to the increasing popularity of Staffies, i can only assume that along with the 'hard' reputation these dogs have, they are fairly small, compact, and fit into the average council flat house, or bedsit without much disruption.
And, there are now soooooo many about, that they are incredibly easy to get hold of! Though, to compare the average council estate staffy, to the ones i saw at crufts, you would not think they are the same breed at all!

Em

Hazel
they must be the latest accesory on the street
:(
Lel

This is going to sound really datft - I was thinking this up while reading this...
Most reputable breeders make an agreement, formal or otherwise that should that pet need rehoming for any reason, they'll take it back (correct me if I'm wrong). What if breeders were regulated to microchip all their "outgoing" pups - in their new owners name (and at the owners cost of course), but maybe somewhere on the registration there could be a place to put the breeders details. Then if the dog is handed over to kennels/dumped (or inspected at home by RSPCA), not only can they trace the owner, but the breeder too. Then the breeder (who if they cared, as most do, would welcome said dog back with open arms, and wouldnt see this as a prob) would have to live up to what they promise. The responsible breeders, who worry about how their pups are getting on would have the comfort of knowing if the owner handed the dog over without contacting them, someone else would. It might also stop the BYBs in their tracks to think "Hey, if I mess this up, I'm scr*wed". Not the whole solution I know - and the thought is in it's early stages *lol*. Also I know it wouldn't stop the petshops - but maybe the same method could apply to them? I dunno...:S

KLathy when pups are tatttooed with the National Dog Tattoo register the breederts details are permanenetly on the database, so if owner can't be traced the breeder is informed. I would imagine the same is the case with chipping. I hope they don't scratch the breeder details when new owner givres theirs, can someone who chips confirm.

I certainly would want a choice of form of permanenet ID and personally prefer the visible one.

If someone sold me a dog in the Pub I would have no reason to have it checked for a chip, but at some point should notice it's ear tattoo when I clean them.

I know human tatoos are very painful,does this not hurt the dog?I have read instances of dog theives cutting the dogs ear off to remove the tatoo.I have no experience with them and I don't want to start a debate about tatooing just interested in your opinion,
Hazel

My adult bitch sat and wagged her tail when she was tattooed. It didn't bother her at all. But she does have a stunning temperament anyway. :)

As far as i am aware, dog tattooing is done differently to human tattooing, in that the tattoo number/letter combination is applied by a sort of stamp, with the tiny needles in blocks forming the figures, rather than someone writing them all out individually with a tattoo machine!
And yeah, human tats do hurt, but i would probably expect dog tattoos to be similar to getting ur ears pierced, or an injection.

Em

Exactly right, Em! The tattoo goes on all in one go - rather like the BCG skin test if you had that as a child. Ink is smeared on the ear, the tattoo 'stamp' is shut and held in place for a few seconds, then more ink is rubbed on the top. All done - next please! :)

Unfortunately, tattoos are often very difficult to read - I used to work with greyhounds, and quite often there were mistakes made in reading tattoos because of the shape of the ear/fading/poor tattoo etc. I think microchipping could be more effective (and humane), but rescues/pounds etc would have to take responsibility and check for a microchip - I know most do, but under stress/because of rushing/because of migrating chips, sometimes they are missed. They have to remember you have to scan the whole shoulder/back area, as they tend to migrate. I've seen some people just wave the scanner somewhere near the neck for a second and say "Nope, no chip". Most rescues are very good, but the few who dont have time to check, or dont check properly, let the side down. Imagine one dog who has a chip but hasnt been checked, thats maybe old and ill - what would happen? Worries me...:S

Tattoos, particularly the ones done 7 or so years ago on pups, do certainly fade (the 'new style' are infinitely better) but there is clearly something there, and you don't need to read the whole number to be able to identify the dog.

But a chip isn't visible at all. :(

That is the reason I have both. The Greyhound tattoos are hard to read, and a different scheme to the National Dog Tattoo register. Most NDTR Tattooists now have the smaller calipers, and the numbers are so much easier to read. My five year old bitch I can read no problem, as I can several of her littermates I see regularly, and I only have 20% sight.

In a rescue each dog should be checked for health by the vet, which includes looking in ears, so the tattoo ought to be picked up, and they can trace even from a partial number!

When having mine checked before going to Holland it took my vet 10 minutes to read my girls chips, so in rescue they could easily have been missed. Thankfully they read OK on way back.

Having both is probably best, but I prefer the visible evidence of ID, and not worry about batteries running down on a scanner.

Maybe the ethical breeders can shoulder some of the responsibility for abandoned/rescued dogs as well. Sticking like glue to a breed standard from the year dot! Take border collies as an example - highly driven working dogs bred to work on the farms and herd the sheep. The farmers round here round up their sheep on quad bikes while the border collies end up in pet homes going stir crazy with boredom before ending up in kennels. OK not all - but a too high percentage.
Just have a look at some of the other breeds around and what they were originally bred for. When's the last time you daxie people put your little dacshunds down a hole looking for a badger?...Not! Yet they're prone to the most agonising disc problems. About time these backs got a little shorter! Who NEEDS them to be so long. These are modern times.
Our lifestyles have revolutionised yet the dogs we breed to compliment us remain predominantly the same. Behaviour issues, aggression etc.. is not tolerated by todays society like it was years ago but any moves to create new breeds is fiercly opposed and ridiculed. Why? It's called evolution!
Just my opinion
Lara

Hi Lara but those self some farmers on quad bikes aslo breed border collies and I somehow can't see them worrying about the numbers in rescue as to them they are just another farm animal who have to work or go one way or another not necesarily to a good home.Gillian