I am new to this site and am hoping you will be able to offer me and my partner some advice on the behaviour of our two dogs.

We have a 20 month old boxer (Phoebe) who we have had since she was 7 weeks old and Rosco a GSD x Rough Collie who we have had just over a week and who we got from the local kennels where dog wardens take strays etc who is aged between 1 & 5. Kennels said approximately 1 year old, vet said between 3 & 5. When we said kennels had said approximately 1 he said well he could be 1 - so basically we still have no real idea on age.

Phoebe has always been a boisterous dog, which is one of the reasons we decided to get her a companion. Her and Rosco get on brilliantly, better than we could have hoped but on walks it is a nightmare.

Phoebe has always had a habit of chasing sheep but that is all she would do. Rosco also chases sheep and horses and cows (we get them all on the common at the back of the house). He will also run off (whereas Phoebe will not go anywhere she cannot see us).

Rosco is very strong on the lead (can literally pull me off my feet) and I would say he has never been taught to walk on one properly. He is great when you let him off initially in that he will run and play with Phoebe and they seem to love it. As soon as he see's another animal though, he's off (even if it's not moving). He's nearly been kicked by one of the ponies on the common and there are young bulls there (some with horns) so no doubt he could get quite hurt by one of them.

This evening was a problem. Rosco and Phoebe had run off playing, no problem. Phoebe returned but no Rosco. Called him a few times but nothing. Gave it a minute or two and then headed back off where we had come.

There was a sheep lying on the common (had seen it earlier but avoided it) but Rosco had found her. Rosco was literally pulling her. I legged it over and told him off. This sheep was very obviously unwell. Rosco would then lick her face and then grab her coat and pull her before licking her again. Now I'm not sure if he knew she was unwell and was trying to help or whether he was being a nightmare. I could stroke this sheep, which is unheard of on the common. I moved all the brambles away from her (she appeared to be breathing normally - just lying completely on her own - she only looked young) and then put Rosco on his lead (Phoebe will follow) and dragged him away. He kept trying to drag me back to her though and I had real problems moving him. At one point I was physically dragging him backwards. On the way home we had to meet the ponies on the common as well, which I could have done without.

Another problem when walking him is other dogs. When we took Phoebe to the kennels to introduce them he was fantastic with her, didn't bark or growl etc. He still is fantastic with Phoebe but doesnt' appear fantastic with other dogs. If there is another dog being walked he growls and barks and trys to drag you over to it (still barking). It's almost as if he doesn't like other dogs but it's strange that he didn't do this when we introduced him to Phoebe. He seems to almost be very protective of us, his new family and no-one else is allowed near us (which is great if we ever get attacked but not so fantastic in an every day environment).

In the house he is the perfect dog. Very friendly, puts up with Phoebe being mad around him and constantly wanting to play, gives his paw, puts his head on your lap, cwtches up to you etc etc. We need to sort him out on walks though.

We won't give up on him (which is what we're assuming someone else did for him to be in kennels) but need to sort him out on a lead and on walks etc PDQ.

Any suggestions please? I am going to have to leave walking them until OH is there as well as I don't think I can handle them both on my own at the minute as Phoebe weighs in at 6 stone and Rosco approximately 3 stone. That means they'll get less walks than we would like.

Sorry for the rambling. Please help us to make sure Rosco can be a happy dog. I do not want him going back to the kennels as that will never sort out his problems and he such a lovely dog.

He has not, as yet, been castrated. We had a health check done at our vets along with vaccinations this week and he is being done in three weeks time when both OH and myself have a week off work.

Hi Welshfox
not experienced enough to give any advice but I wish you the best of luck :)
Lel

Hi,
It certainly seems like you have your hands full!

My friends who work in breed welfare always recommend that people who take on a new adult dog keep them on the lead (unless in a secure garden) for a few weeks because with an 'unknown quantity' you never know how they are going to react. It's not unheard of for them to get spooked and take off, and never be seen alive again.

The running after sheep must be stopped - a farmer is perfectly within his rights to shoot any animal he suspects of worrying his livestock.

Can your vet recommend local training classes? If not, contact the Association of Pet Dog Trainers who will know of trainers local to you. I'm sure you would find these helpful.

Best of luck with your dogs. :)

Thank you both :D The vet we use isn't actually local to the area we live in (moved recently but only 25 minutes away and as my horses, cat and my parents 3 cats and the dogs are registered there and we have an account we have stuck with them).

I will look into the Association of Pet Dog Trainers to see if they can suggest something/someone to help.

It has been suggested that we use a Halti on Rosco. Does anyone have any experience of them? I generally don't know what they are, although they have been explained to me.

A halti is similar to a headcollar that you would use on a horse. For example, if you were to put a collar around a horses neck you wouldn't stand much chance of controlling it - but a headcollar allows you to direct the head where there is more control.

I would use halti's on both, make sure that the dogs cannot get out to go after the sheep (very bad idea and both dogs could be shot), and walk them separately. Take one in the morning and the other in the evening. Put them in the car and take them somewhere quiet where you stand a chance of spending some time calling them back to you and training them (particularly Rosco). Alternatively, only ever walk them on a long lead (a strong one! :))

HTH
Chloe

"Phoebe has always had a habit of chasing sheep but that is all she would do. Rosco also chases sheep and horses and cows (we get them all on the common at the back of the house"

When sheep are chased they get paraysed with fear, and die of heart attacks. one dog can kill a whole flock without actually biting the sheep. I am stunned then that you say Phoebe "only chases" sheep! Maybe you didnt realise that this is sheep worrying, even if she doesnt touch the sheep. PLEASE keep your dogs on the lead and away from sheep. If anyone sees your dog "only chasing" sheep, your dog will be shot. I dont want to get on your case but you did not seem to realise that this was not ok to do. If someone had seen what happened as you reported it tonight you would already be in very serious trouble with the police , even if the sheep was already ill.:( :(

So firstly...both dogs on lead near livestock. Secondly deal with the other stuff...training classes and a halti collar.

You should ALWAYS keep your dogs on a lead if there are any other animals in the field.

My firend learnt the hard wya when her springer chased a sheep to death.
Luckily the farmer didnt shoot her but he did present her witha bill for over £500 for the sheep and the two lambs she had been carrying at the time.

My parents have a gundog and he is very obedient but even he is put on the lead.
A dogs urge to chase is just to big a risk to take.

The problems I have had is that Phoebe has lived with my partner until recently, as we only moved in together last October/November and subsequently I have not really had anything to do with the walking of the dogs. As we are now living together and I am home in the evenings I would like to be able to do more with the dogs.

Yes we need to sort out the sheep chasing problems and I am going to try to find some places in the local area where we can walk the dogs where there are no loose livestock. Yes I did know that it is not acceptable for our dogs to chase sheep. One of the reasons we wanted a companion for Phoebe was to give her someone to play with and to hopefully take her mind off chasing sheep (the theory being if she had another dog to run around and play with, she would have no need to chase the sheep), unfortunately this is not appearing to be the case.

I have horses of my own and know that I would not be impressed if a dog were chasing them and I keep the horses on a working farm, so I know the laws about worrying livestock only too well.

My partner has been very lax with sorting out the problems with Phoebe but in fairness she had only met sheep about two/three times before we moved. We are very fortunate to have fantastic common land to the rear of the house but obviously that brings the problem of animals grazing on the common.

We will be doing our best to rectify these problems. My partner is going to try to get out of work for a bit today to see if he can find a halti for Rosco. We have looked at various training aids for Phoebe in the past but having a typical boxer face it is very difficult to find something that we can use on her. With Rosco I am going to dig out my lunge line (about 8ft long - used for the horses) so that he can have some freedom with out actually being free.

Any more suggestions are greatly appreciated as we are trying to sort these problems out.

Unfortunately, if you have one dog that chases livestock, and then get another dog, you don't end up with 2 dogs who will play together, you get 2 dogs who chase livestock, and develop a pack mentality and are even more likely to do damage. :(

So it's on leads for both if there are any animals about.

Peronally I wouold use a Gentle Leader head collar or the dogalter over the Halti. They both have wider webbing that is softer in the Gentle leader (made by Canac) and the leader has an adjustable slide to alter the noseband.

The dogalter (Kumfi) seems to worik well on Shepherds.

As for your problems control is the key, so get them both to training classes. Also more than one dog are even more than likely to worry livestock, than one on it's owner, as they will be acting as a pack.

This is what oiften happens with Latchkey dogs who form a pack. Individually they may not be a problem or inclined to worry people or livestock, but together things are very different.

With the Gentle Leader, assuming she has some muzzle you should be able to get it to fit on the boxer. Get the nose strap behind her jowls, and across the tope of her muzzle, and adjust the sliding clip under her chin to fit snugly. The webbing on this product has edges that are soft.

You can get the gentle leader in Pets at Home if there is one near you. Jollyes I think have them in. If you need to get one ordered, order a Medium.

We have two Pets at Homes stores close to us, so hopefully one of the will stock a Gentle Leader.

Thank you very much. Will try to get them today and then start doing some work with them on leads and stay off the common for a while. Walking on the lead in a halter of sorts has to be better than them getting no walks at all.

On the side of Rosco being a bit aggressive towards other dogs, yet not Phoebe or us, we had thought about a muzzle. Although he doesn't appear to bite he is a bit of an unknown quantity as we've only had him just over a week and we don't want to take any risks.

I quite like the material ones' but have been told that the cage ones are better as they allow the dog to pant. What do you all think/use?

The 'cage' type Baskerville muzzle is definitely better as an 'anti-bite' muzzle than the fabric. It generally causes less distress to the dog to wear and thus less tension. With the fabric ones they can still nip.

The more good training work you can do with, praising good behaviour and not reacting to bad (even scolding can reinforce unwanted behaviour), keeping them under control, and giving them 'thinking' games at home, the better behaved and more relaxed they will become.

Good luck. :)

Only this week I was walking my two dogs with a lady whose dog got into a field and chased half a dozen horses. I am aware that a farmer can shoot a dog worrying his sheep, however, I was not aware of various other livestock rules. If anyone is interested you can find it by searching for 'The Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953'. I've learnt some things from it and others may find it helpful if you don't already know about it.

Thank you all. Jeangenie, thank you for your suggestion of the The Pet Trainers Association (I think that was right). I found their website and have located someone quite close to us and we have an appointment a week Monday for her to come and see our dogs at home and also on walks. Fingers crossed we'll get it all sorted.

We have picked up some Halti's to use in the meantime as we can't not walk them for the next 10 days. We have also got some stuff on clicker training to see if that helps.

Thank you all again.

Glad to be of help. :) Hope it all goes well. Good luck.

Hi Welshfox

The most succesfull training ever on here started with Darren, his post is on P9 under the general thread titled 'Trainer wanted in Bromley'
see the results. Since then I used the same trainer and now, after my third lesson I can recall my dog any distance and under almost all circumstances. If you want to make contact just click my email or Darrens.
All the best.

<<The most succesfull training ever on here>>

That is a matter of opinion Yapyap not a statment of fact!

My dog has a take it or leave it attitude to training at the moment, I try to TAKE the dummy of her, and she LEAVES it out of my reach :D

This can become such a habit, chippygonemad, that the dog honestly believes that is what you want. Just before she gets to the "Dropping zone" turn your back and start walking, calling her up to heel as you go. Hopefully in her supprise at something different she will come in to heel still holding the dummy and without stopping you can quietly take it and praise her. Young dogs dropping is one of the commonest problems I get to deal with and with quiet handling one of the easiest to solve.

Best wishes, John

Thanks for the advice John, at the moment Heidi has completely lost it, she seems unwilling to do any thing, so I hope I'm doing the right thing by going back to basics, and starting from the beginning again, the sit was a half hearted sit in her own time if at all, and the single 'pip' was certainly not a stop command at all. She's now 8 months old and to be honest I think its my fault, she did so well with us using your postings on training on the labrador forum , that I became lax and to confident in her ablities, but its reinforced one thing that you did say to me, never do any training unless we can both put 100% in to it. Thanks again for your help John. :)

Robert

Don’t worry about it Robert. I once saw Jeangenie describe it as "The Kevin Period" (Sorry all you Kevin's ;) ) All dogs go through this during the adolescent period when the best of dogs gives the appearance of not having learned a thing. Get through that and your away again. Try not to allow too many mistakes because that is fault training. Better something easier which goes right. It may seem to go on for ever but believe me, it passes!

Best Wishes, John

Put a prong collar on your dog and keep both on the leash at all times. A prong collar looks severe, but is more humane than most other collars, like a choke, which as it name suggest, chokes a dog. This can causing breathing problems too. Your dog is a herding dog, thats what the collie and GSD were bred to do. Their instinct is to chase (herd) animals. The sheep on the ground was not acting normal and your dog knew this. Instinct told the dog to get the sheep up and moving. This of course is not what you want your dogs to do, since you are not trying to herd sheep. At home, work on the come command. Your dog is not trained enough to be off leash anywhere. Keep working both dogs, adding distractions little by little. A dog should never be allowed to not come. Again, as suggested, do not let you dogs off leash ever.