I had a phone call from a family this week and an email they have a Labrador and they are finding her hard work,because of the nature of the owners work and he has a lot of people calling at the house the dog is jumping up etc.. very excitable steals things :) typical Lab behaviour in my experience :)
Anyway they have had a behaviourist to the dog and have been told this :
When she jumps up throw chains at her feet and in a loud voice shout Baa.... the man said it was getting embarrasing shouting Baa and chucking chains.. Im sorry but I burst out laughing :) :) where do they get this from??? and why BAAAAAAAAAA ???
My neighbour took his manic GSD to a behaviourist he made no headway at all anyway I said to my neighbour what did he do he said he lost his temper and battered him with a mop !!! I said what will you do ? he said buy a few more mops !!
I know Im going to get jumped on and there are probably some very good behaviourist and to those I truly apologise but these people are paying good money for this advice and some can see them coming with flashing lights on.

I had a behavourist come to my house but for a different reason. My dog was aggresive. Anyway, he gave me the same advice of using the discs. I went stright out and bought them and they are the best things since sliced bread, but only if you use them properly. My dog is a completely different dog now and not aggresive at all. I think what they may be getting at by telling them to say baa is to use a command when you use the discs so you can eventually use the command without the discs. I am not an expert, but I am almost positive (and anybody correct me if I am wrong) that you could probably use your own command. You could use down, or any other command that does not make you look like a fool. The discs should have come with a book to tell you how to use them, so have a read of this to get to grips with the discs but they are very effective. My dog eats the post, so I put the discs in the post box and when the post comes through so does the discs. He doesn't eat it anymore. He is used to the fact that when the discs make a noise, he shouldn't be doing whatever it is he is doing or about to do. I don't even have to put the discs in the letter box anymore. I also use them to put on the sofa and he does not go on there anymore when I am not there to stop him. Hope this helps. Claire.

Hi Claire
Interesting to read about the success you've had with the training discs, I don't think I've seen a mention of them on here before.
I've had some for several years, originally to try to cure my previous dog of fear aggression. They didn't work so I put them away and forgot about them. But when my current dog started barking at other dogs, I thought I'd give the discs another try. And they seem to be doing the trick !
When he approaches another dog I keep saying good boy over and over while he's quiet. If he does bark I quickly shake the discs and it immediately distracts him and by the time he's worked out what the noise was, the other dog has passed :)
As to behavourists generally, I spent a fair bit of money on them trying to resolve the fear aggression problem but I can't really say they had much effect.

My labs love training discs. If you throw them down they grab them and run off, tails wagging. I have them for my rescue dog.

To be honest with you I don't know anybody who has heard of them before, but I have recommended them to friends and they swear by them. You seem to be able to use them for most things, even training a dog to walk to heel. Some people think they are cruel, but I was told that the dog doesn't dislike the discs, they just don't like the reaction they have to them and this is was prevents them from doing it again. I have only had a behaviourlist come to the house once, and he told me so much, that by the time he walked out of the door, I had forgotten most of what he had told me. I think this site is an excellent way of exchanging information and getting advice from others who have had similar experiences. I am quite surprised that Nicolla's dogs like the discs but I suppose some dogs have no fear. How do you use the training discs with your dogs if they actually enjoy them?
Claire

I use the discs with my rescue dog Whiskey although not very often any more as he is 9 now. It is the other dogs (labs) who don't mind them. Whiskey hates them.

An old Coke can part-filled with gravel works just as well :) My older dog hates it, but pup couldn't care less.

Daisy

I used my keys until I had bought the discs, they were just as good until I broke one of my keys from throwing them on the floor. Whoops.

I use a small plastic water bottle filled with loose change. Anytime my puppy exhibits any behaviour other than noise related ie barking etc.that i want to discourage I shake the bottle and she stops. She hates the noise!. But it works a treat - she used to get up on the couch all the time, so every time she tried it instead of screaming me head off "leave" or "no", I just shake the bottle and say "no" she stops and sits down on the floor. Now she knows better and sits on the floor next to mw. I have the bottle hidden behing a cushion so she cant see it. So it might sound harsh but it works!

did he batter the behaviourist with the mop :D lol

Hope So :) :)

I despair when I read about so-called behaviourists battering dogs with mops etc, because to me that person is NOT a behaviourist!!! just some cheap charlatan trying to make money. A decent reputable behaviourist will never ever suggest any such thing.

There are only a few organisations which provide reputable behaviourists, and they are the APBC, the UKRCB. The APDT members are trainers only, not behaviourists, but some will have a behavioural understanding with a good track record - I know one excellent member personally who specialises in aggression and has a very good success rate.

It's difficult to comment on the first example, as I read the post as chucking a chain, not training discs, so am a little confused.

If training discs are used they must be conditioned first, so the dog's brain understands they signal a "no reward". If the dog reacts in a scared way then they are simply not being used correctly. /Some dogs don't respond to them at all.

Unfortunately anyone can say "I am a behaviourist" but if a b. is chosen from either of the above organisations, they should be excellent help and provide support afterwards too. Anyone who is hoping to become a b. will want to be a member of one of these organisations.

There is one organisation who seems to have no behavioural understanding whatsoever and sound kind of gimmicky, I would'nt be at all surprised if one or both of these so-called behaviourists came from them.

Please don't think you will get jumped on Mattie - anyone who believes in and knows a genuine behaviourist will share your feelings and be horrified at these idiots. I sometimes don't know whether to laugh or cry. Usually because of the dogs, I feel like doing the latter :(

best wishes
Lindsay

If you try to batter Max with a mop he takes it off you, chews it up and spits it out ready for the next one.

LOl @ Banger

He hasn't changed then!!! :D :D

I must admit when he was a pup (14 weeks or so) we used to play with him and a brush. Now whenever he sees a brush he grabs it, runs off and swings it around in his mouth in the garden. Funny how they remember so far back. :D

Lindsay, I may be wrong but I read it that it was the owner who battered the dog with the mop not the behaviourist. I very much hope it wasn't the behaviourist!

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

It was the behaviourist Joan :( unfortunately the owner followed suit

Incredible!
Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

There has only been one person who came on this board who came back after having a ’realistic’ success.

He was met with a lot of rude comments ( more than likely stemming form jealousy ) when he came back to relay his 100% success e.g. an emergency down stay when his dog, not used to horses was suddenly confronted by them and all after 4 weeks.

APDC, APDT, UKRCB Ltd, are bodies similar to unions made up for the purposes of commercial self promotion. They are the same sort of bodies which garage mechanics, builders plumbers etc have. They never offer contracts with written guarantees and an obedience training course should not under any circumstances take more than 6 lesson over, in my case a maximum of 9 weeks, their courses even without written contracts take years to get nowhere..

For the biggest success story see Darrens post, he came here looking for help, this is at the beginning of his post and came back with the excellent results I am now achieving with my own dog.

The post is located under GENERAL;
and click 9 at the bottom of the first page;

Then click;

Help with a Dog Trainer - Bromley Kent

Darren Posted 28.11.02 13:54 GMT

Darren Posted 01.03.03 11:55 GMT

I would be very interested if someone can point me to a greater success.

Yapyap. try reading this!

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200203/cmbills/057/03057.1-i.html

by yap yap

Yapyap

I don't see an "emergency stay when confronted by a horse" via using a "training device" to be a success.
I consider those people who spend hours and hours and hours training their dogs to do this, without the use of any kind of collar, truly successful.

The rest of us recall our dogs and put them on a lead.

Chloe.

Chloe he didn't use it, he had a complete training course with one as the only correction, when the horses appeared his dog went down when he told it.
Apart from that I would be interested in you telling me what you know about them, youre experience with them and which type. I am useing one in my training so I can help you if you are incorrect, actualy there has been so many instances of people stateing the misuse and making totaly unsupported claims about them that it has actualy promoted the real collars, I fully recomend them now I have found out what they REALLY are.
But my course is a drive stimulation course, the E is only a part of it.

John,
The page you posted is ( http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200203/cmbills/057/03057.1-i.html ) the one which was discussed before I started my course, it is nothing more than another of David Rendals private members bill attempts, I don't know how many times in this past 8 or 9 years he has tried this bill. What I do know is that back benchers give a basic wording to a bill and then ask permission for it to be heard then al the facts and wording has to be put together, usually takes another two years or so. THEN the facts are scrutinised. This attempt will be thrown out AGAIN.

Below is from the Guardian and it is it's report and comment on the web page you pointed to, I personaly think it was misleading do do that without stateing what I have just stated, if Rendal proves to be misleading, well!

It actualy happened, he was involved in the Roger Mugford enquirey/scandal ( the one about Mugfords undeclared intererests to the Associate Parliamentry Group on Animal Welfare ) last year ( April I think). He doesn't even know how E collars work let alone get a bill through, just another back bencher trying to make a name for himself, so far not a very good one.

Below is the Guardians report of the bill which is the bill mentioned on your posting, address above.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Yesterday in parliament
Staff and agencies
Thursday February 13, 2003
The Guardian

RENDAL
"Animal electric shock collars "unnecessarily cruel" collars that give animals an electric shock in a bid to teach good behaviour. Liberal Democrat David Rendel, introducing his animals electric shock collars bill, said their sale and use should be outlawed because it was wrong to use "pain to discourage unwanted behaviour". His bill gained its first reading but stands no chance of becoming law.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

The first reading of any private members bill is the presentation. It is then typed up and moves onto the second reading. The first reading is a mere formality. Private Members' Bills are proposals for legislation affecting the powers of particular bodies, such as local authorities, or the rights of individuals. These are subject to a special form of parliamentary procedure. They almost invariably fail [ source BBC]

Then the MP ( in this case Rendal ) must give the facts, his basics on E collars are incorrect and I know (first hand) that does not know anything about static stimulation collars. For a bill to even get through a second reading it must contain factual statements.

Apart from back bench private members bills never going anywhere anyway his premise is fundamentally flawed, passing ANY new law in Parliament is no mean feat let alone passing laws which are obviously fundamentally flawed.

Electric collars rely on one thing and one thing only in order to work. Fear! Fear of the pain which they are going to get. If the only way I could train my dogs was by inflecting pain then I would leave dogs for ever.

No John, that is misuse of an E.

What you really mean is that if YOU used one YOU would use them as a pain tool, whilst people like me are taking the trouble learn to use them correctly not incorrectly as you describe you would do.

I have actualy learned to use mine as a reward as well.

How exactly do you reward your dog by giving it an electric shock?

I also dont follow your remark about <<He was met with a lot of rude comments ( more than likely stemming form jealousy )>> I'm not at all sure where the jealousy comes into it???

Why has this thread turned into an e collar advertisement ???