We have a 15 month old neutered Estrella bitch, who has started intermittently wetting herself. At first we thought it was because she was getting a chill through swimming in very cold water, but now it seems that's not necessarily the case.

She never wets herself through the night, or in the car - only when she's sleeping during the day.

The vet has suggested we start using Propalin on her, but my concern is that this might stop her gaining control herself (can their muscles strengthen if they're young), or become something we have to give her for the rest of her life.

Does the effectiveness of this wear off and will the situation get worse if we then stop using it?

Also, can it be used occasionally when you want to make sure she does not embarrass herself.

Many thanks

Hi and welcome to the Forum :) I have no experience of Propalin but I did find some old threads that may be of help ...

If you use the Search facility here on Champdogs and type in Propalin you will get links to the older topics

HTH

Melody :)

I have a rotti bitch who was spayed on the vets advise at 10 mths of age. I now know better!
She will be 6 in July and has been on propalin since she was about 12 mths old. 3 yrs ago we added incurin tablets to this as the propalin had stopped working. Along side each other they work. The only time they don't work is when she has her yearly booster and it takes about 8 weeks to get her under control again.

Yes this is the side of netering that often isn't mentioned. It also seems to be worse when the deed was done young, and in some of the larger breeds. It is why the I would always risk slightly higher risk of Mammary tumours in a bitch that is allowed to have a season or two, against the relatively high incidense of urinary incontinenece. Lets face it having to medicate a dog for life, and perhaps risking a tumour which can be taken away when tiny, I know which eisk I predfer to take.

The mammary tumour risk in adult unspayed bitches is about 45% and only about half of these are not benign. In some heavy breeds the chances of urinary incontinence are something like 80%, with all the consequences of dealing with this, like hygene etc.

I have four bitches aged between 11 and 3 of which only one had Mammary tumour (the oldest at 5 after she had had two litters). This was a tiny lump that was diagnosed as Carcinoma. 3 years later it regrew in the same spot, so she had a partiual mastectomy, no recurrence since, though I have had two Lipomas (benign fatty tumours) removed in the years since in order to be sure they were not anything sinister.

I would actually be interested in knowing if there are studies done on this. Our rescue was aquired by us at 12 weeks and had already been spayed by the rescue society. She has had no problems of incontinence and is now over 5 years old.

In the States very early neutering is done routinely, you'd think if the statistics of incontinence was as high as is claimed here that a HUGE percentage of US dog owners would be dealing with incontinence and I don't see this as being the case on ANY of the US lists I'm on.

Wendy

It seems to be a particuklarly high incidence problem in large breeds like the Rottweiler, Dobe and Boxer. There was an article last year about the fact that the oft touted pro neutering studies were in fact not really representative. The mag is normally very pro neutering and the editirs were quite astonished by the other side of the coin.

I would think that most rescue crossbreeds would tent to be small medium size, so maybe why incontinence is not a bitg issue, but it soes seem to be with anything over the 30kg adult weight mark.

Thanks for that - that does make a bit more sense. I re-read my post and hope I didn't come across as sarcastic - because that certainly wasn't the intent:)

Chelsea is a whippet/terrier mix - so definitely medium sized.

Wendy

I've had several large dogs, and all have been neutered or speyed. Never had a problem yet, and I think if the rates were 80% like you said, then surely 80% of mine would have had a problem? I think the rates must be wrong there.
I have however seen a dog die of a pyometra, and seen another die of testicular cancer (not my dogs though), both of which can be prevented by speying and neutering of course.
I think it's dangerous to say your dog would be healthier unspeyed.
And if the health reasons are not enough to make you want to spey an animal, take a look at the thousands of unwanted pups in rescues needing homes.
Thanks for enlightening us though, it is always interesting to read about the other sides of things.
As for the propalin, isn't that a beta-blocker used in humans (for panic attacks and anxiety, high blood pressure etc)? It's interesting to know that it's used for animals and other reasons too.
Lisa

Glad you've had no problems with spaying etc LisaLQ.
I was told by my vet that problems associated with spaying were very rare!!! I have only ever had 2 bitches spayed, the first a 9 mth old rotti who has suffered with incontience ever since and then a nearly 3 yr old labrador who nearly died the following day from internal bleeding and spent about 5 hrs on the operating table in order to save her life.
I will NEVER forgive the vet who did my labradors spay and I probably will never spay again.
My 6 yr old labrador should have been spayed in February and I cancelled the week before due to being scared to death I might lose her. At the moment I feel that if she does get cancer in a few years time etc at least I will have a few more years with her, where as if I lose her on the operating table now it would kill me. Either way I would probably never forgive myself but at the moment I will not spay her.

Sounds like you have a bad vet and have had a very unlucky time. I still think the risks are too few and far between to justify not speying my pets.
I'd rather my dog peed on the floor than went through months of pain with cancer, or a pyometra.
I can understand your fears, and I am very sorry you had to go through that, but just 'cos you have a bad vet who obviously needs investigating, doesn't mean you should give up hope of a normal spey. Thousands of them happen every day, and if everyone who was happy with their pets spey wrote on here, then you'd see how rare that kind of problem is.
Good luck for the future,
Lisa
xx

Hi Lisa,
This is one of those topics that can be discussed till the cows come home, and people are still either for or against it!

I personally am against routine operations of any kind, whether for animals or people. That is not to say I am against surgery per se. It's just that many people become blase to the possible risks and side-effects. :)

Also the studies i saw mentioned in USA recomending castration compared the sexual organ development of a pups castrated at 7 weeks, 7 months, and those of an entire dog. It was found that the arrest in development in the 7 week and 7 month olds penis wasn't that different (duh not surprising as the 7 month old won't have reached/finished puberty either). They were both found to have much smaller penis and sheeth than an entire male.

I had a Dobie bitch who was nspayed at about 12 monthish (cant remember exactly) She had one season. She started wetting herself at the age of about 3 and was on propalin until she died aged 11. It generally worked although we had to increase the dose. I read somewhere they need regular checkups as it can be bad for the heart. Incurin didn't work on her. I must say I will think carefully before I have another bitch spayed.

Is there an alternative? A doggie pill?

The only safe alternative I know of is extreme vigilance by the owner....

Our beagle was neutered at a year and has been incontinent ever since. It's only sporadic and all our floors are mopable so we haven't got her on medication. i have made the decision not to spay any of my other dogs though.

3 years ago I spent hours on the net trying to find an answer to the "before or after first season" question regarding spaying. I couldn't find anything conclusive so we went ahead with an early spay for our Giant Schnauzer. She does now suffer(?) from incontinence and is on Propalin. Having read a bit about Incurin I thought this might be a more suitable (i.e. easier for us to administer) product and asked the vet about changing. He advised against it as the Propalin does work. What are peoples thoughts on this? Should I be more insistent about the Incurin?