My partner and I have recently made the decision to home a Labrador puppy in the new year. As we are both very new to this I wonder if anyone has any good advice/top tips or recommend any good books for us. One thing I am very interested in is what are the main points to look for when going to see the puppies, I know it is best to see both the parents but what should we be looking for? I have owned a dog before but never from a puppy, I currently have two cats which I have owned from 'new' but I have a sneaky suspicion that a puppy will take a lot more time and attention than the furry felines!! Any advice greatly appreciated.

I got a lab puppy 3 months ago. Do you know you should check the eye and hip scores of the parents as labs are prone to corneal and hip problems? Don't over exercise your puppy - the first year is very important.
I am also a first time dog owner with 2 cats - they were my biggest worry. Fortunately one of the cats is a big bully and has sorted the pup out in no uncertain terms and thus made it easier for the other, much more timid, cat. I don't know if anyone has ever seen a lab puppy tiptoeing but that is what ours does when the big bad moggy is around LOL. Give your cats (or at least the dominant one) lots of support at standing up to puppy. Apart from that I can say I don't think you'll regret getting a puppy, they're hard work (you're right-much harder work than the cats) but I've got a feeling that if you're asking questions you're geared up for all that. Good luck
Jane

Ireally dont think it is good advice to support a bully cat to sort out a puppy. cats can inflict terriable injuries to a baby, a swipe of a claw can blind an adult dog not to mention a puppy. .Any person bringing in a puppy to a home where there is cats has to be prepared to train the puppy to be friends with the cat not make it scared because the pup will turn into an adult and woe betide the cat then . I think you should refrain from giving advice like this .someone might follow it

Off topic discussion continued here

I wouldn't necesaily expect to see the sire at the breders home. It may sometimes even mean that the breeder would rather use their own dog, rather than pay for the use of the best/most suitable dog for their bitch. Few people now keep such extensive set ups that they will have a Stud suitable for their own bitches, as they are likely to be quite closely related, unless one of the pair has been brought in.

Many small scale breeders only keep bitches and may use a male many hundreds of miles from where they live. You may have to rely on photos, or arange a trip to visit dad, or dogs sired by him.

(1) Have you found a breeder yet or are you going to look at adds in the new year. Any reputable breeder will give loads of advice on how to look after one of their puppies correctly, and will give a lifetime of advice. So find a breeder now and pre book you puppy. This will give you time to vet the breeder on past litters and if they have had problems in the past.
(2) Find your local “dog training club”. Enrol now and start going even before you get your puppy. There are plenty of people who are very willing to pass on their experiences of puppy and dog ownership, plus you will make a few new friends and your first day with the puppy won’t be so daunting.
(3) Cats and Dogs can quite easily live together, if the owners were more thoughtful. Most puppies regardless of breed, get in to everything and generally cause mayhem. Whether it be a stuffed toy or a cat, they would love to rip it to bits just to see what’s inside, so supervise all contact between puppy and the cats and stop all boisterous play till your puppy grows a bit older and more sensible. Marie Walshmari is quite right as cats can cause serious damage to dogs when they feel they have to protect themselves.
Hope yopu find the right puppy and have many happy years together

Elmbridge

Just a bit more about health tests that the parents MUST have had AND had a good result. Both parents must have been hip scored- not just one of them. Each dog should have a total score of no more than about 16. Some breeders will just say " Oh yes they are hip scored" and leave it at that, you should actually ask what the scores are for each parent and ask to see the results when you visit. Some are now being elbow scored too, as there is an increasing problem in the breed with elbows. Both parents must have a current (tested within the last 12 months) eye certificate too that says NAD - No abnormailty detected. If the breeder you choose does all these tests and answers all your questions about them freely, this is a good start to judge whether they are reputable or not. There are so many "breeders" that are just in it for the money, and doing all these tests costs the breeder quite a lot of money, which puppy farmers dont usually bother with. Make sure they are registered with the Kennel Club and not the UK Pedigree Dog Club or any other.

All good breeders will insure the puppy free for you for 6 weeks or so, its really important to have this free insurance. Even from a good breeder the odd puppy will become poorly soon after sale and your vets expenses, which can be huge, will be covered. I strongly recommend that you continue insuring the puppy once it runs out. If you do a search on the site " Insurance" all the previous advicegiven about which company is best will be found.

I wouldn't worry about the cats, they will get used to the puppy and most will not injure a puppy as long as they are agile enough to jump out of the way. They learn to live together eventually. You will need to feed the cats up on a surface ( washing machine?) or the puppy will scoff all their food and there may be arguements.

Labradors are renowned for chewing anything they can get their teeth around, oft en until they are adult and even beyond, so be prepared!!

Many thanks to everyone for your responses. I only found this site a couple of days ago and the one overwhelming feeling is that everyone is so very passionate about their dogs and very freely give advice etc - it's a really good forum.

My cats have two completely different personalities - one comes home for breakfast and dinner and that's near enough all we see of her and the younger one we are sure is a human in a fluffy coat!! - really affectionate too. We're hoping that if we introduce them correctly she won't feel threathened or scared and hopefully take to the puppy well.

One outstanding question - are there any books anyone can recommend for bringing up a puppy? I had a look on Amazon and it brought up a few but I'm unsure as to how helpful they would be. Any recommendations?

A good book to start with is The Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey.

Helen

Many thanks, I've just ordered it now.

Hi, another excellent pair of books that every dog owner should have one of are " The book of the Bitch" by Kay White and Jim Evans, or if you are having a male puppy "The Doglopedia" by the same pair. They will be useful for the whole of your dogs' life, and have good sections for puppyhood.

Welcome to the forum rlataster :-) Helen has recommend a very good book. Leigh

Just to add that even though both parents may have good hip scores, there is always the occasional puppy that suffers from HD inspite :-( A very dear friend of mine had one - although he is responding well to intensive therapy (surgery is out of the question because of cost - vet is also unsure it would be effective anyway :-( ) I'd advise getting a good insurance inplace as soon as possible to cover this possibility.
Good luck with your pup.

Fran

I think I would also add...out of interest and as part of researching - a little tip - check out the Ian Billinghurst book and read what he says about Hip Scoring - very interesting.

Hi Norm, its spooky how we seem to agree on most things! I have just read about HD/Barf diet, in "Raise your pups on bones" seems to make a lot of sense. Interestingly, a lab puppy I kept on once had appalling hips (on the X ray) and the vet advised me not to send them off. Very disappointed I kept her anyway, did not breed her, and she stayed sound as a bell (and quite a good mover) all her life!! Her dad had a good score (5:6) and mum (8:10). She was not over exersised and was reared on commercial food, as were her parents.

I have just found a very accommodating butcher who will mince up fine, whole breast of lamb and chicken wings, bones and all, for me, very cheaply and I am "moving" over to more of a barf type diet. I was concerned that this sort of a diet would be much more expensive and having several dogs, cost has to be taken into account. However I got 9lbs of locally reared and killed minced lamb for £3, so its actually much cheaper!! I'm too much of a coward to give them whole bones! Its so funny, when I first started giving them raw meat they would flick it out of the bowl in disgust- but they are getting used to it now! I thought it would be gone in a flash but they actually took some persuading.

Hi Westie Lover - yes, it is interesting isn't it and certainly made sense to me - although I couldn't explain it myself ! I've been doing the barf diet about 70% and the rest a low quality complete - which makes up for times when I can't get bone. Like you ( ! ) I too am now too much of a coward to feed whole chicken wings....with having more than one dog thye tend to bolt them and not chew them properly - so I get mince which has had all the bones minced with it.

I've run out of mince this last couple of days - mines expensive at the mo. as I need another cheap freezer in order to buy in bulk - bulk I can get chicken mince for 25p lb - but presently it's costing 42plb from my local pet shop !

My Shep pup is not hip-scored, but I was careful to assess the conformation of the parents and her build does not suggest a problem with HD ( I know alot will disagree and will be all for screening etc and the fact that they believe HD is heriditary - but I don't - so please let me have my opinion without slating me - I've reasearched the subject alot...so please be nice ...in fact anyone who hasn't read the Billinghurst book and the section on HD, give it go, before slating me...please...)....furthermore, I have raised my puppy slowly on raw meat, veg, fish etc, kept her lean and excercised her minimally and she is growing into a fine animal indeed.

God if dont stop being so nice to you people will think we are in the mutual admiration club. I never hip score mine either and my dogs are widely known for their excellent movement. you dont have to hip score to see if there is a problem YOU ONLY HAVE TO SEE THEM MOVE .I dont know what you think yourself but what has happened to the noble breed Im looking at gsd these days walking on their backsides NOTHING like the gsd I grew up with . Idont have them now but I know my shepherds and theres a lot wrong now do you agree ? chuckling . or will we fall out again .pray kind sir please dont. oh i used to get bone meal cant now good idea to find a butcher to mince them .as i live and learn .

Sir ? opps ;-)

Yeah I know .just thought it would stop him coming at me on his trusty steed with long pointy things . cant put a smilie here cant use them yet,

Take a look in the *help* option at the top of the page Mari

Well, what's wrong with being nice to me !? I'm really not a bad old stick you know - bit principled maybe, but fair and square, that's all....call a spade a spade !

Anyhow, yes...I do agree that shepherds these days are often more like camels than GSDs - I spent a great deal of time and energy finding one with a good temp. and good conformation ( to my personal eye )...an old fashioned type if you like - these old type sheps wouldn't have sufferred with HD like these ' modern ' types ...... glad to hear we finally agree on a couple of things !

So, ok then, I was thinking of Hip scoring my pup, as I may want to have a litter from her at some point...but I'm not so sure whether I should I not, really...only peace of mind for me that her hips are ok, but it won't prove to me that that was down to my own rearing policies some would say...despite the fact that I wholeheartedly agree with Dr Ian Billinghurst, which should mean I should be confident enough to leave out the Hip-scores - if you see what I mean??? ( You might need to go away and have a cup of tea in order to understand this bit ! Difficult to explain ). Trouble is I could be narrowing down the chances of finding a suitable stud as many stud owners won't allow their dogs to be used on non-hip scored bitches....those that tend not to be insistent upon hip scores ( interestingly enough ), are the ones with sheps with conformation like mine - more old fashioned type, often German/English mixes, as mine is. As my bitch is rather rangy and her tail carriage is higher than I would like, I want to put her to a more German looking dog ( although on the whole I don't like German types ), so finding a nice unexagerated German type, will make things even harder in my search. Temp. is even more important and my shep also has old fashioned character too - very laid back, never overreacts to sights, sounds or strangers, ( yet with a natural guarding instinct ) very biddable, good with men and children, adaptable and generally a joy to live with...I don't want to spoil this by putting her to a hyped up type, ( not as much like a collie, but more sensitive ) as unfortunately many are...having visited many, many breed and ob. shows.

Before, I get a lecture about how not all GSDs are the same - I know !! But, as with many breeds there are quite a few dodgy specimens being bred and with the popularity of the GSD being so high, the percentage of bad specimens is also notable....this post is primarily a reply to Mari, really....I am not inviting the opening of a can of worms !

great. Now I think we have sucked this topic dry lets move ON

Hip Dysplasia is a Polygenic problem, part heredity and part rearing/environment, so both those who say its feeding and genetics are right! What harm can it do to check the hips. Dogs with Hip Scores as high as 40 have been known to move well. there was a Ch BSD when I was showing this breed, who judges said had excellent movement, and he scored 42!

Also the effect of the score will vary with the conformation of the breed. Those that are heavy, very angulated will have problems with lower scores than those who are lighter or not so angulated, or havevery good muscle.

I feel strongly that all breeding stock should be Hip Scored so that the situation in a breed can be monitored, if they start showing a marked deterioration, then breeders will know something is going terribly wrong, and if they gradually improve over time, then they can be proud that their selections have benefited their breed.

I would simply rather know if my dog had a high score, as it would influence my management of him. A pup with a high score would not be a good Agility candidate, but lead a very good life with regular but not excessive or over strenuous excersise. Alsoyou would know to avoid any weight gain etc.

Completely agree with you Brainless. I can never accept that breeding from untested or unscored dogs is an acceptabe practise. I've know a Golden with a score of 56 who always moved great when in his younger days. Different story when he got older but that would have been after his breeding life so too late as far as stud duties would have been concerned.

John

Agree with Brainless, HD is a hereditary condition, but can be made a lot worse by too much exercise and overfeeding.
Norm, your taste in Shepherds is the same as mine, I have a 7 month old 'old fashioned type' from pure english lines, he has lovely build, very big boned and heavy, nice straight back etc, but I am still gonna have him hip scored before I use him for a stud, as I don't think you can ever be totally sure, and I wouldnt breed from a dog with a higher than average score.
Also, I think breeders that hip score have a better reputation, and can't be accused of breeding just for money.
Of course, for German Shepherds, there are other things you need to test for too, like haemophillia in males and megaosophagus, especially in the english bloodlines.
I just don't see the harm in doing the tests, its not like they cost that much money when you think about how much people make these days, especially from big litters.

well, yes....that's why I think I'll have my bitch hip-scored - just for peace of mind - I'd never rest if I bred from a bitch who's hip-scores I didn't know.

Hey, my shep bitch is 7 months! - same as your dog - fancy getting together at alater date!? he sounds great! - hip scores pending of course !! Got any pics you can send?

HI Brainless, who was the Ch BSd with the high hip score? Was it a Gron or a Terv? Just wondered as I am not involved in showing the breed but am on my 3rd Terv. so I like to learn a little when i can.

YOu had a Gron didn't you?

Lindsay

It was a Gron! The one I was thinking of was Kalmor Assasin 19/23 but the 1992 yearbook doesn't show him as a champion, but on the hip page it doesn't show any dog with a title, he may have not have gained his title, but his movement was praised. Owned by karen Morris.

Thanks Brainless, out of interest the breeder who found both my first Tervs for me once produced a Terv with a really really high hip score, a total of 90 something, but all the parents etc were fine with their scores and so were the littermates. The new owner was feeding Royal Canin at the time, (this was ages ago) and the breeder swore it was the diet. Don't suppose we'll ever know but it's so interesting....I tend to feel from my limited understanding that it is both genetic and environmental/diet etc as someone else has mentioned.

Best wishes
Lindsay

I may be wrong, but I think i read somewhere that the heritability was around 40%, well less than half anyway, so that rearing and environmental factors play a far bigger part than one would realise.

good management won't make bad hips good, but poor can make good ones worse, and the bad ones with care may not be as debilitating as they otherwise might.

This doesn't give anyone the excise not to score though, as the inheritance is significant, as after all the averages on a recessive trait like PRA, for example would be 1 in 4 affected if two carriers are mated, but no-one would advocate deliberately mating carriers because 3 out of 4 wouldn't go blind! :D

I'm sure the Billinghurst book says that hip-scores aren't worth the paper they are written on - has anyone got it? - I don't have a copy anymore...I'm not saying that's right - just can't remember what he said - but I'm certain that he put it all down to conformation - so in that, a dog might be line bred to a type that has bad angulation, for example, then yes, in this respect HD would be Hereditary, but HD isn't a disease, as I understood it, it's bad physical conformation brought about by the wrong choice of dogs...if you see what I mean....I'm not trying to inflame - just trying to remember what I read - ooh if anyone has got the book - it's the "2nd one I think - ' grow your pup with bones ', and there's at least a chapter on it - can anyone read it and let us know what it says? - basically? Environmental factors can them alleviate or exacerbate the conformation after that.......I agree wholeheartedly that while hip-scoring is available though, it can't do any harm to have hips done to make sure you're breeding is on the right track and you're conformation is on track.....in this respect you could argue that dogs with hip-scores of any description other than Completely clear - are the dogs to avoid !! Norms lateral thinking again !!!!

[deleted]

That's great Mari - cheers.....it's that tip-of-the-tongue/suspense feeling - not being able to remember what it said properly ! Must be getting old !

HD is not a disease in as far as you can't catch it! It is genetic and carried in the genes of the male and female. To be accurate, bad hips are an inflected thing caused by any number of things, over exercise, diet, slippery floors and jumping around are just a few possible causes. But although the final outcome is the same, to be accurate this is not true HD I have stated on the board many times that as many if not more bad hips are inflected rather than inherited, but the problem is knowing which is which! Scoring won’t tell you but is the only way of knowing just how good or bad the hips really are. Even if the sire and dam both have good hips this still doesn’t follow that the puppies will not inherit a problem because both may carry the gene as a recessive! Checking the scores for several earlier generations ON BOTH SIDES will give a clearer picture but even then it is still possible for a gene to mutate and for HD to develop spontaneously! Don’t confuse conformation with hips, it is a totally different thing! A dog can have poor conformation, long in the second thigh, bad angulation or what ever and still have perfect hips. It is a completely different subject and not linked in any way!

Incidentally HD was diagnosed in human’s years before it was discovered in dogs!

As a parting shot, one breeder has already been successfully sued by a puppy buyer for selling a puppy who later developed HD! Remembering that how can anyone take the chance of not scoring and risk both producing poor hips and being sued?

John

Direct hit by your " parting shot " John !

I am still wholly convinced by Dr Ian Billinghurst I'm afraid and while I would still hip-score my dogs to establish what state the hips are in ( for whatever reason )....I still do not agree that HD is a clear hereditary fault - as far as I understood there is no ' gene ' ...not from how understand the Billinghurst book...have you read it?

Conformation of the hips. in my opinion, is a very important factor relating to HD - I don't see how you can seperate the two factors....but yes I take the point that bad angulation doesn't necessarily mean bad hips, but it is a significant factor that if bad hips are bred to bad hips ( for arguments sake ) you can further exacerbate the HD problem.

Dr Billinghurst states - ... that if HD were hereditary then it would have been eradicted by now. If it was purely hereditary then you wouldn't HD puppies from low scored parents, ..... but you do...which proves it's not hereditary. The proliferation of HD started after the war after the introduction of processed food and HD is down to bad nutrition and the wrong type of excercise - badly reared puppies on newspaper - giving rise to ' swimmers ' at an early age with loose joints. Lack of ( or over use of ) vitamins and minerals exacerbates the problem.

Norm if only it was as simple as that to eradicte genetical faults but sadly it isnt. Whilst there may be some truth that poor feeding, rearing and exercising can cause these probelms genes have many a trick up their sleeve. You can test eyes etc all you like but if the problem is a recessive one that it will continue to crop up until such time as a DNA test is available and only genetically clear dogs are bred (subject to size of gene pool etc which is a different kettle of fish!)

It's a complicated subject indeed ! I still maintain environment and management plays a bigger part than most would think, which is why I don't feed processed food exclusively, not do I excercise shep pups much at all for the first twelve months...however, I do think it would be madness not to use the scoring available. Eyes are a different kettle of fish as that is something which cannot ever be allieviated by or is influenced by outside factors such as diet/excercise etc -

The proliferation of HD started after the war after the introduction of processed food
As processed food is concerned HD was found to be present in people entombed in a pyramid which was ever so slightly before processed food was invented! The fact is that HD was not even identified in dogs until the late 40’s early 50’s. The reason being that vet science and owners money did not run the doing autopsies on dogs in those days. But I can assure you that I knew of dogs becoming cripples late in life with bad hips! I also remember the first complete foods coming onto the market. I brought some of the first but after opening the packet I decided that as I wouldn’t like it then I would not impose it on my dogs.

Dr Billinghurst states - ... that if HD were hereditary then it would have been eradicted by now
Years ago a GSD won Crufts Dog Obedience. As those of us in the know well knew it was epileptic. It sired 40 puppies in that year! That’s the reason why not more progress is made!

I'm afraid I’ve never heard of Dr Billinghurst and if what you are saying about him is true then I think I’ll stick to the works of Dr Malcolm Willis. His works on genetics is respected world wide.

I respect Doctor Malcolm Willis too. Billinghurst is well know and respected also. But you do that John...you do that.

norm this is what i got
mail@dogwise.com
and the two books are in direct books as well .

norm. would it be too much trouble if I asked you to let me know roughly what you give your dog daily re the barf diet, as ive decided to raise my pup that way,, and I dont think the books will be here for a few weeks. there is a man sells tripe and beef at dog shows. have found out he is only 26 mls from me so I am going to see if i can get it all the time the meat I mean;) mari:)

'course it isn't too much trouble - although don't know how helpfull you'll find it - I have a daxie, collie and shep - now let me see - the trouble is I tend to feed ' by eye ' , if you see what I mean - if they look too lean I feed 'em up, if they're getting fat I cut it down ! Because the diet I give them is varied ( and I never feed at the same time of day - - it's difficult to average it out ( my maths is apalling ! )....but I should say the shep pup gets roughly 1 and a half llbs of minced meat per day the others roughly llb. I get mainly minced chicken - the sort that has bones in it too ( minced up with it )...watch out for some suppliers as the meat can be slimey - indicating alot of skin - if it looks pink with gritty bits in it - that's good. I also give tripe in small quantities as it seems to upset mine if I give them too much. Anything else you can get - minced beef etc. If you can buy the meat in bulk you should get it for around 25pllb ( chicken ) but you'll need to spend at least £30 to get it delivered, but it's well worth it.
I also give liver, heart or kidney once only per week , which I buy from Tescos as it's only cheap in prepacks. They also get sardines, or tuna or other fish in oil once per week.

With this I give ( variably ) eggs ( just the yolk ), grated cheese, and any other good quality table scraps ( not too much pasta or rice but some is ok ).

Then there;s the veg ( it is a bit of a fag until you get used to it ! ), whcih need to be pulped ( I expect you have a magichef, grater thingy? - I broke my first one by putting chicken wings in it ! )....so any veg _ I peel my carrots, cabbage, etc straight into a container which thens get minced up - they have a couple of tablespoons of that every day - and whole carrots as treats....apples, sweetcorn, anything like that......I also very occasionally put rabbit food with their food, if for any reason they get runny tums ( which I have to say is rare ), and this firms them up nicely again !

I used to give whole chicken wings, but my lot tend to bolt them down and even the Billinghurst book refcommends that some dogs that do so shouldn't have them - just know your own dog and decide for yourself.

One of the most tangible ' side-effects ' of this diet is the lack of nasty, smelly doggy doo - what comes out the other end tends to be crumbly and white and non smelly....oh, if all the people who refuse to pick up their own dogs mess round here would at very least, switch to the barf diet ! Also, being on the barf diet helps with worm infestations - there is nothing for the worms to live on in the gut and so bad cases of worms are rare.

I admit to feeding a low quality complete dry meal on occasions when I cannot get mince - also I've been bulking out the pups feed with some complete to ensure a little top up on the calcium side...but it is recommended to use a low quality complete - as really the barf diet and processed don't go together - I wouldn't do it half and half for instance - I suppose it's about 70 - 80% barf and the rest dry meal....but then I can go weeks with them on 100% barf - it has taken a long while to get into the swing of it and I did get fed up once or twice - however, they are so well established on the diet now that I wouldn't consider doing anything else and I would feel anxious at having to feed complete again. Their coats are glossy , they are not fat, but lean and well defined, not hyped up but very laid back.

On top of this I use the homeopathic nosodes rather than conventional vacs....another reason for keeping on top with the barf diet as nosode treatment is best backed up with a non-additive natural diet.

I don't add any supplements there should be no need if the diet is varied enough - although growing pups could benefit from added vit C as you can never have too much of that -

Good luck, let us know how you get on - good idea to source some meat before you start - but I always look out for the orange label stuff in the supermarket - often there is cheap meat going, which I take for the dogs ( much to the disgust of my other half ! ) - if you are in a position to mince up the meat yourself , so much the better - but like I say, I haven't come accross a strong enough mincer ! If anyone can recommend something that can cope with mincing chicken wings I'd be grateful !

Good luck.

Norm,Where did you get your bitch from? I would be happy to let my dog out for stud if he passed all his tests, if you e mail me privately I will let you see some pictures, although must admit, he does look better in real life than in photos, wouldnt mind seeing your girl as well! Is she going through the gangly stage yet? What does she weigh? My boy weighs 66 pounds, which I think is pretty good, my vet says he's in perfect shape! However, was told today by a GSD breeder that he should be closer to 100 pounds! Thats way too overweight in my opinion at only 7 months, what do you think?

Hi Bear,

I'm not really sure about weight to be honest - she's never been weighed but I wouldn't say she was anything like 100lbs yet....she is gangly yes ! I think she will be a rangy type....she's excellent temp...German/English mix - non-descript pedigree I'm afraid - lots of outcrossing - but she would make an excellent foundation bitch. The only little niggle I have with her from an aesthetic point of view , is her tail carriage is a bit higher than I would like...other than that she is looking really nice and stands lovely.
She is from the Blaenstruth Kennel - links from this site I think. Breeder of police dogs - ( the chap is a dog handler in the force )...however, all the dogs are very well balanced temp wise as well as physically....

I'll try and send you a puppy pic...but I'm just waiting to have some more up to date ones done...

cheers
Norm

many many thanks . Iam starting on monday .as you say hard work but im happy to do it and I will most certainly keep you informed how i get on. I emailed the ian billinghurst addy late last night and an email with an attachment, saying books everwhere, came back almost straight away, so I deleted it as i thought it kind of strange , so I went to local book store and they are going to order it instead once I had the info they said no problem I am not opening any attachments that Im not sure of anymore.thanks again mari