Hi,

I noticed on reading the thread on the Boston needing a C section for it's final litter the view that it is wrong to breed if you have no intention of keeping a puppy from any particular litter.

I found I wasn't able to post a reply, so have started a different thread.

My own opinion is that there are perfectly good reasons for wishing to breed litters to advance your breeding program, without necesarily planning to keep a puppy from each litter.

When we are looking for a Stud dog we look at the offspring he has already produced, or if considering using a maiden dog, what his sire or other relatives have produced.

In the same way, I would aiom to have several litters from my bitches to different sires, in order to be better able to judge what qualities good or bad the bitch was imparting to the resulting offspring.

Few people in this day and age can keep the number of dogs they would like, to be able to establish a succesful line.

Dogs bred from litters where a pup wasn't kept are used in the breeding program in succeeding generations, or even possibly to rescue the family line.

It may be that your latest bitch is infertile, or you have bred into a line with problems. Going back into one of the sidelines will enable a breeder to go back and sideways a step.

I own 3 bitches from the 7 litters I have bred.

From the litters where I have not kept a puppy. One litter a bitch has been bred on from by someone else. Another litter a bitch went to Australia to supplement their breeding plans (who knows maybe something may come back here in generations to come), a brother of this bitch I am using as a mate to one of my bitches, some generations removed.

Another litter has two bitches that are going to be foundation bitches for two new breeders (we are in need of new breed enthusiasts if we want to keep a viable breed).

Every litter I plan and breed I do so with the hope that if one of the pups is shown or bred from it may be a useful addition to the gene pool, for others and possibly indirectly myself. I may find that all the pups go purely as pets, or the ones who wanted to show do not.

I'm afraid that I would always keep on a pup - I really wouldn't trust any third party to continue my line for me if I needed to, nor for that matter to release a good pup back to me should the necessity arise in the future.

Having said that, I'm delighted to let a really good pup go to an experienced person - we have the option of choosing a good worker in our breed, have personally chosen that pup, and let a possibly better conformation pup go to a dual purpose home.

To be honest, I'm not awfully keen to let a stunning pup go to a first-time owner, however keen they appear.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

What would you do if there was nothing suitable in the litter for your purposes, all males and you wanted a girl for instance?

Would you keep one anyway or would you hope for better luck in a future litter?

Fiona
x x x

not trying to be awkward, just curious :)

Jo,

If this policy was followed by breeders in my breed, I think it would almost certainly die out. Registrations have fallen off even in my short asociation with the breed by about a third, with everyone reducing their breeing to a litter a year or fewer, and established breeders dying and having to reduce. There are few new people able to step ihnto their shoes.

From around 150 registrations 10 years ago, we are down to under a 100. We need to persuade/encourage the new owner to join in!

Thank you Brainless,
Yes I'm not keeping a puppy but my breeder is, to continue on the line. Right now after pups there is way to much on my plate. So in time I may get another female from her so many generations later to keep the line going. But me keeping one would not be fair to a pup. It has nothing to do with money,it all goes back into the breed to better the breed. You have to do xrays/ultrasound and c-sections on this breed or it will die out. Dogs are made the way people perfer them that is why we have problems.I never liked having to rotate pups,and no that wasn't nice,like I said I was getting ready to go to the vet and she had him.....For this bread big heads and a blocky pup is nice.....You breed to the standard,perfect ideal markings,size,weight,head, tail (little)carried right ect.and the list goes on....

"Dogs are made the way people perfer them that is why we have problems"

Why should breeds suffer breathing problems etc. just because people like it that way??

Helen

Helen, what does that comment have to do with the price of fish. Ja:)kie

Was talking about the comment that dollface (I think) made about boston terriers having problems. I commented that why should we breed dogs with health problems just because people like the way they look.

I could be waaay off track and misread it of course. Do boston terriers have problems?

What sort of problems was dollface referring to?

Helen

Yes boston terriers have problems,but doesn't every breed have problems?. Just because some people do not prefer these breeds is their choice, and up to one individual what they like. Man kind made the dogs we have today. What is a purbred but more less a mutt that has been inbred/linebred back into its self until you get what you want and keep breeding that way until that dog is reconized and called a purbred and has papers. Any dog if crossed and bred over so many times and has the reconition is purbred, and humanes for doing this has caused the problems or what have you in the dogs we now have today. If humans stopped breedings certain dogs because of indivuals likes and dislikes then a lot if not all would die out because people have different likes,that is what makes us all different. To ask me why I would breed this breed, I guess you could ask a lot of breeders why they breed to. You get the type of dog that interest you the most.(My friends breeding Devon Rex where the colestrum will kill them so she has to bottle feed them for the first 24hrs,why is because she loves the breed). It comes down to what appeals to you. We would never have any of the breeds if we never made what appealed to humans.

"We would never have any of the breeds if we never made what appealed to humans. "

No we wouldn't. A dog is a man made being. Man bred types of dogs originally to do a job for us. Whether to retrieve or flush game or to keep our laps warm.

There are breeds I don't like and I imagine there are people that don't like the breeds that I do. I just can't understand why continue a breed that can't breathe properly or can't breed properly. Sorry if it is a controversial thing to say, but it is how I feel. I have very limited knowledge of a lot of breeds and I'm sure what I know is probably a lot of heresay but I have seen certain breeds unable to breathe properly because of the way their faces are. I find that incredibly sad that just because we want a face to be like that, we ignore the health implications.

Helen

Hey Leigh, see , its not only me!!! ;)

Helen and Phil, its me too :-)

and me to, regards tina

There are so many Defects and disorders in everybreed.To name a few cause more would take forever...
The vet. Guide to your dogs symptoms:

Collies:multiple eye defect,deafness in one or both ears(mostly the white-coated dogs),inflanation in the skin,epilepsy,failure of the growing to normal size can lead to blindness,heatmumur
border collie: erraic absorption of vitamin B12, causing anemia, weakness, and personality change.
dalmation: deafness in both ears.leg cramps.
norwegian elkhound: diabetes,kidney disease,vision loss.
Labrador: cleft palate,diabetes mellitus, ectopic ureter,stiff gait,
Dogue de bordeaux (french mastiff): hip,thyroid, heart,patella,displasia,ankles,temp.,elbows

That is only to name some of the problems in those breeds not all of the problems that affects them. So why breed any animal if they have problems? Dalmations and Rhodesian ridgeback's are known to be deaf,how fair is that.There is also the Maltes are prone to slipping patellas. My bostons have no problem with their breathing (but breathing problems is one),but they snore and so does my hybrid and so did our shepherd collie.
There is also one or both testicles being contained by dogs can happen in all breeds and these dogs should never be bred and it is hereditary,can not show these dogs either. If you stopped breeding because of problems none of these dogs would be here,people breed to try and rid the problem in the breed.
I do alot of checking on breeds I'm interested in so I know what to ask about. I happen to like the Bordeaux (dogs with flat type faces). It isn't just certain breeds that have problems all breeds do.
Bulldogs were bred for bullbaiting,boston were originally bred for dogfighting.Cane corso,Pressa Canario,Dogo Argentino, Neo mastiff,for dogfighting and the Mastiff was used for guard dogs.Thankful that these fighting are now outlawed. All dogs were bred for something and now used as our loving campanions.

Hi again dollface, I agree with you totally, most pedigree dogs suffer or can suffer from health problems, including my own. I was just querying why you were breeding another litter when you had no intention of keeping a pup. I agree that some dogs (especially numerically small breeds) must be bred from to keep the breed alive, but most reputable breeders only breed a litter when they want to keep something, IN THE HOPE that luck swinging their way, there will be a good pup in the litter
However, I have already had a "nice" slap on the wrist, so I will not post on this topic again, and we will have to agree to differ on this one. Whatever my views. I really hope your bitch and the pups will do well.:)

Thank you phil,
My breeder is taking pup to continue,I would love to but I have no time so when things slow down I 'm planning on getting a couple of generations later off her. We try to breed for the littler heads so there is no trouble,but my boston needs the c-section this time.Since free whelp isn't an option, thats why I want to have her spayed.
Like you said topic closed and we will have to agree to differ.
Thanxs

"There are so many Defects and disorders in everybreed.To name a few cause more would take forever..."

Aren't the disorders you listed anominalies (hope I've used that right!), whereas breathing, breeding problems are the norm in some breeds - that's how they are? I'm not talking about the high incidence of hd in german shepherds, I'm talking about some breeds inability to breeathe because of the structure of their face. Good breeders are trying to irradicate hd - breeding from sound stock etc, but what can be done about those breeds that are meant to be like that.

Helen

Not all bostons have breathing problems,but they can.Boston terrier was made by crossing the bulldog with a terrier,and people just added more bulldog.The boston orinated in Boston. I find the Canadian breed is more bulldog where the States breed is more terrier. My female is from Canada where my male is from the States (parents are from the States and he was born in Canada). My female has the real pushed in face and blocky body (square appearance) where my male has a little longer snout and is skinner. With breeding the two was smaller heads and longer muzzles to get rid of the breathing problems (I have no breathing problems with mine),and free whelping. Unfortunately a c-section this time,thats why I want to spay her,one c-section don't want her to go threw that again. Anyhow some of the pups can take more of the little heads and longer snout on and breed those in hopes to get rid of the problem and cections (more terrier without losing all of the bull). Thats what I'm hoping any how so you don't have to do c-sections and have breathing problems.Standard always change on breeds. The boston use to be bigger and had a full white head and brindle body,now that would be a great big fault.Me personally I really liked them then. Pugs, english bulldogs and pekenese all have these problems of breathing, alot of people perfer it,indivual choice I can't speak for others on why. I just really like the Boston,great with children,perfect little house dog,shed little. They to me are just the perfect little dog and I love them, their look,build,size color. They are known as the gentlemans dog and already dressed wearing a tux. I just love them thats why I have them. I have my male in agitity and he loves it,planning on getting Tiva in it to and T-Bone into flyball. I like to see something they have fun at and enjoy.

Hi Dollface,
I entered in a little late, but I have a question about your earlier post concerning genetic defects in other breeds.
What is "erratic absorbtion of B12.... " in Border Collies? I have never heard of this.
TiaLee

I never stated I knew this I wrote that I got it out of the book I mentioned, just to say that other breeds can have problems as well.I like to get all sorts of books and do alot of reading,always wanted to be a vet.,but life doesn't always go that way.
Border collie: Selective cobalamin malabsorption. Erratic absorption of vitamin B12, causing anemia,weakness,and personality changes
Malabsorption: A condition in which the absorption of ingested substances in the small intestine is reduced.
Thats all it said about that, there is other defects and disorders.

Hi Again,
Who wrote this book? I'd like to find a copy.
The signs described sound like CL to me which has nothing to do with malabsorbtion of any vitamin. Unfortunately , it is a fatal genetic disease that few vets seem aware of.
TiaLee

Hi Tialee vets in the uk don't see alot of CL so its understandable that they aren't very aware of it. Is it a problem in the U.S

What's CL please?
Anne

Anne Cl is Ceroid Lipofuscinosis or storage disease. This site will give you more info on it http://www.bccnsw.com Gillian

Thanks Gillian,
I had never heard of it
Anne

Hi Satincollie,
I do not know if CL is a problem in the US- how could I since vets here don't know about it for the most part. I believe that it is up to breeders to educate their vets and to look for signs in BCs all of the time.
To me, this is by far the scariest disease we have to face and I would hate to see it become widespread, if it isn't already. The trouble is, that so many BCs are put down at a young age for "aggression" or "seizures" or for just "becoming unmanageable". Many of these cases could well be CL. So many young dogs in pet homes or on farms die and it is attributed to poison or head injury or whatever. I want to be sure that that IS what happened and that it is not really CL going undiagnosed.
There have been two cases of CL diagnosed in the US in Texas, but pedigree information is unavailable for these. I do not believe that this is an "Australian" problem, I believe it is a "Border Collie" problem, as well as affecting several other breeds.
The statement in the book that Dollface quoted just sounds suspiciously like another attempt to diagnose a true case of CL as something else. I don't KNOW, I am only trying to learn. Because CL scares the hell out of me.
TiaLee

Hi Tialee I totally agree with you about CL I just wondered if it was more common in the US than here because I didn't know and was just trying to glean some more information about this awful disease.The Aussies seem to be so much more informed about it than we do and thats why I posted the link I did for Anne so she would get the info she required from a good source.Best Wishes Gillian

Thanks, Gillian. I hope no one felt I was being argumentative, because I didn't mean to. It is hard to appreciate the tone of responses in writing at times!
I am heartened to know that others do feel that CL is a problem that ALL Border Collies breeders need to think about and I do hope that we would all take a copy of this article to our own vets- if not every vet in our area. There is a lot that vets need to keep up on, and this, so far(thankfully) rare disease is not likely to be mentioned often in their continuing education unless we who are concerned make it a point to do so.
TiaLee

Hi!
I don't know what CL is, but could I suggest you open a new topic. Then when people are looking for Threads on the subject in the archives, it will be easier to find??

Perhaps you could start with a description of what it is and the symptoms?

The Veterinarians' Guide To Your DOG'S Symptoms
Michael S. Garvey, DVM., Ann E Hohenhaus, DVM., Katherine A. Houpt, VMD., PH.D., John E. Pinckney, DVM., Melissa S. Wallace, DVM., Elizabeth Randolph
I got the Defect and/or Disorders on page 170 in the book.
Thats about all I can tell you..... sorry

Just a correction:
The Dogo Argentino is a big-game hunting dog (hogs, pumas etc.). It is and was never refered as a fighting dog. Understanding the Dogo's temperament (loving and selfish) you will see that there are no great chances in transforming the Dogo into a fighting dog the way APBT American Staffordshire Terriers and Staffordshire Bullterriers are.

According to The new Encylopedia of the DOG Bruce Fogle DVM
On page334
Dogo Argentino
Country of origin: Argentina
Date of origin: 1920's
First use: Game hunting and DOG FIGHTING
Life epectancy : 10-11 years
Other name: Argentine Dogo
Weight rarnge: 80-100lbs (36-45kg)
Height range 24-27 in (61-69cm)

That is where I got my information from.

Reading more on them they made them from crossing 10 different breeds together and each breed they used gave a little to make the Dogo. Pretty interesting reading up on the history. :)

ttfn :)

I've seen "The New Encyclopedia of the Dog" by Bruce Foggle... although I did love his book "The Dogs Mind" I think that he is too generally speaking on this encyclopedia. The part reffering to the Dogo Argentino is rather unpercise. The Time it was written the valid standard was still the original standard (Argentina - FCI) reffered to the height range: 60 - 65 cm. I have to counteroffer the original Breed Standard issued by the "Club del Dogo Argentino - Dr. Antonio Nores Martinez" (Argentina) adopted by the FCI (post-adjusted in 1999) and the books and handwritings of the creator Dr. Antonio Nores Martinez, his brother Agustin and respected Dogo person rather than the (written) words of a undeniable all-alround dog person who lives in a country where the Dogo is banned due to its aggression.
Here are some parts of the FCI Breed Standard No. 292 - Dogo Argentino (altered in Jan 29, 1999):
"Utilization: Big Game Hunting Dog" (no further use mentioned). In the part "Brief Historical Summary" you can read "On May 21st 1964, this breed was acknowledged by the Federacion Cinologica Argentina and by the Argentinean Rural Society" (1928 was the year when Dr. Antonio Nores Martinez started creating the Dogo) and "It was not until July 31st 1973 that the breed was accepted by the Federation Cynologique Internationale as the first and only Argentinean breed". Refering to size the standard mentiones as follows "Height at the withers: Dogs: 62 to 68cm; Bitches: 60 to 65cm" and weight is mentioned only as a directive with proportion to height "Weight: Males 100 to 130 lbs, Bitches: 85 to 100 lbs, as long as they are proportionate".
The 10 breeds are not mentioned in the standard although the cmplex receipe is known through Dr. Antonio Martinez; handwritten notes.
Old Fighting Dog of Cordoba (Perro pelea Cordobes - the first of only three relations of the Dogo with a fighting dog through its ancestors), The harlequin Great Dane (Deutsche Dogge) to gain on size and white colour, the Pyrenean Dog (Grand Chien des Pyrenees) to gain on white colour and all-weather stability, the white Bullterrier (second relation) to gain on gameness, jaw power and white colour, the Bulldog (old type - third relation) to gain on jaw power, the Pointer to gain on scenting, the German Boxer to gain on affection, the Dogue de Bordeaux for jaw power, the Irish Wolfshound to gain on stamina and speed and the Mastin Espanol (Spanish Mastiff) to gain on power, stamina and beat weather conditions.

Sorry for the size of my reply. :D

Thats why I said (well I think I said ) after reading the history of them is pretty interesting :) I read that on the net and I myself never found anything to support the dog fighting except in the Ecyclopedia. Learned something knew. :)

ttfn :)

I agree totally Jo. I accept that there may be circumstances where all the pups have to be sold, but personally I'd never consider breeding unless I want a pup myself. Of course they may all turn out of less that show quality, but frankly my dogs are loved friend and companions first, and with very careful pedigree study (usually takes me about a year :-)), I'd be disappoineted if all the litter were, if not Crufts winners, at lest good, sound tyey hounds with few major faults.

I'm with brainless on this one as I worry that a diminished gene pool caused by breeders not trusting others or by controlling too much is a recipe for disaster for the dog world, especially in numerically small breeds.
Although I can understand to some extent this 'protecting my line' arguement but at the end of the day that is imo short sighted for the breed in general.
Ted

Well, Ted, I suppose we're playing the numbers game. In Flatcoats we've been very lucky - probably because we've been very conscientious over the years, so the breed as a whole is remarkably free of hereditary diseases. Our numbers are increasing in almost every BRS, but we're so lucky that our problems haven't been compounded accordingly.

Actually, although we have seen an increase in numbers, the basic gene pool is still fairly limited to a few families (as opposed to kennels) so we have to be awfully careful with our breeding - as much as anything else, to avoid the 'popular sire ' syndrome which can so easily happen when novices begin. (don't get me wrong - we've all been novices at one time, I know - some of us perpetual acknowledged novices, but we learn along the way!!!)

Maybe that's why we like to have a degree of control over our line - we know the pitfalls - all lines have pitfalls - and we do our damndest to hope that in our hands at least the pitfalls are minimised. Nobody is infallible, and mistakes happen occasionally, but we hope not too often.

I would never be limited by sex of the pup I kept, but if all were disasterous work/conformation-wise I suppose I might sell all - but never happened - yet!!!

Think this may have strayed off topic a little, but it explains why I always keep a pup.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

No not strayed off topic at all.

I choose to have endorsements on my puppies, and only lift them if the potential breeder at least has the health screening and other guidelines that our Breed club Code of Ethics advises. I would also expect them to heed my advice re choice of sire, until such time as they have the experience to make informed decisons of their own.

As I am limited to numbers that I can keep, and like to keep all mine until their death, this is the only way I can make any progress. The other way would be to keep a pup from each litter, and rehome them once they had made their cxontribution to my master plan. The latter method might enable me to keep several offshoots, and blend them.

All I am saying is that there are no hard and fast rules on this one, and we should not judge another persons breeding ethics, because they are different to our own. Unless of course they do not take responsibility to ensure that the pups they breed are sold into good homes, amd are not prepared to take lifelong responsibility for their welfare.

The kind of breeder that churns out puppies, who then regularly turn up in rescue, for others to help haven't a leg to stand on in my book. Of course if they are unable to physically take back a dog, but pay Rescues expenses, that is another matter, and still taking responsibility.

But Ted, you don't have to use your own stud dog! I've done it once for what I considered a good reason, but one of my aims is to keep the small gene pook from turning into a gene puddle. In fact I actually seek out good but not well known studs if possible. I take the point about numbers, and know I'm lucky to have a place and set up where I can keep a lot of dogs, but when it comes down to it, numbers depend on how often you breed - in my case twice or maybe thrice a decade.

Not sure what you mean about numbers, I was refering to the breeds where the total number of dogs is few, not to what an individual can accomodate. I think it is a wise move as far as the future for all dogs is concerned to seek out a stud dog that has not been too prolific but unfortunatly not many do as that red looks good on the pedigree.
Ted

Ted that's what I said - "In fact I actually seek out good but not well known studs if possible."

I know you said that, I was agreeing with you.
ted

Sorry Ted - misread you :-(

Coming to this discussion a little late (very busy week, just didnt seem to get anything done!) thought I would add my bit - I always hope to keep at least one from each litter, but occassionaly find that nothing is suitable - they are perhaps of not sufficient quality to keep for showing or breeding, or perhaps a problem has occurred with a parent/grandparent since the mating took place, making it impossible to continue breeding from that line (other reasons too, of course) in this instance the whole litter will have to be sold (given away depending on the problem!!!?) However, for the first time, I have done a mating which I am not planning to keep anything from (although I will be delighted if they turn out so well I feel I have to keep one). I did this mating as it was not possible to use the original stud dog planned, due to a potential eye problem (he is in a sort of 'holding pattern'; at the moment, having 3 monthly eye checks). A friend has a young dog, bred by us, who has not been used yet, and is now 20 months old. Whilst not a potential 'superstar" he has much to like about him, include excellent movement, beauftiful construction and superb temperament. It is frequently a problem in my breed if you dont use a dog at stud while young - they simply cant perform if left too late! So we used him on Willow, first time for her too. This is something we dont normally do (2 first timers), but we do have a full insight into the pedigrees on both sides (having bred both, plus 1 mother and 1 grandmother ). Litter due in 3 weeks, so will let you all know how it works out:)
Gwen

Hi, I have come into this a bit late too, but thought I'd add my bit. I have bred 3 litters this year in the hope of keeping a bitch puppy - I cant keep another dog. The first litter was an outcross to try and bring something new to the line, but it didn't work and they were all much too big. In the next litter there was only one bitch who was not quite what I wanted, though seeing photos of her now I think I may have made a mistake!! The latest litter on which I was pinning all my hopes ( probably my best bred bitch put to a big winner/good producer) produced 4 lovely males. I have reluctantly ( I dont usually breed more than 2 or max 3 litters a year) mated another bitch and am waiting to see if she has caught. I do so hope that I can get the girl I want this time. I always intend to keep a puppy from every mating, but it does not always work out that way! Having a breed that commonly produces small litters is a little different to breeding those breeds that commonly have 6-10 in a litter, when there is often more choice of maybe 4 or 5 of the required sex to choose from.

Hi Westie Lover
Me too (on the late side I mean!). ;)
I think you have hit the nail on the head, in that you always go into a litter *hoping* to keep a pup, but sometimes fate decrees that there is nothing in the litter suitable for you to keep. :)
In Wolfies I think it is very rare that the breeder doesn't keep at least 1 from each litter, and I, like you, will go into each mating with every intention of keeping a pup. In fact I'd go as far as saying that I have a long term plan (which may or may not work out) regarding what I will be looking for in each & every mating, after all everyone must have a goal and some idea of where they want to go with their breeding and how they intend to get there. :D
Nicky

I had a litter of Spanish Water Dogs last year which I wasn't going to keep any puppies from. I suppose my situation is different because they are a rare breed.

My bitch was 7 yrs. old but a new dog was imported into the country and myself and the stud dog owner both had a feeling that we cd. get something good from a litter. We didn't get something good, we got 5 wonderful pups who have all won at shows. Previously I have only bred for something for myself but this time I did it hopefully to get something good for the breed as a whole and luckily it worked.

Hey Briedog I'm sure that you'll support me on this one!!

Well, I am late into this disscussion. It is all very interesting. I have an opinion to make on both subjects that were discussed here. First of all I think it is sad that so many breeders will breed so few litters. Of course we all want to breed hoping to get a good puppy that will be the next generation for our breeding programs, but IMHO, I think that way to much inbreeding and linebreeding is being practiced!! Where else in the world of breeding animals do we see this? A horse breeder, for example, would be horiffied to see half siblings and the such being bred back into each other. I think this type of intertwining with blood is the cause of many of the adverse health defects that so many breeds suffer. I may be way off here, though since I will admit I am new to it all. But really, look at all the other animal breeders. You start breeding brother to sisters, aunts to nephews and problems go on the rise. I am doing careful research on my dogs pedigrees and I am looking to get very good bloodlines that are in absolutely no way related before I breed. I know the opinion is that this should only be done by experienced breeders, but I am sorry guys... it only makes perfect sence to me. On another note.... I think that the world of dog breeding needs to open up a little. Welcome in some newcomers whose intentions are honerable. Seems that everyone is way to eager to accuse people of "puppy farming" without even really finding out what the person is all about. Everyone has to start somewhere and if new breeders dont come on the seen... well then ALL our breeds will surely become rare ones!!!! When we are all dead and gone someone else is going to have to breed and care for these little treasures we call dogs so lets embrace and teach the next generation of those caregivers. Hope I didnt step on any toes, wasnt trying to!!! Just felt strongly about all this. Please, Please, please dont take offense, I ment none... is just my very humble opinion!
QT

I would agree with you in most part, appart from you statement that in other forms of livestock breeding line/inbreeding is prqacticed less.

In fact some other livestock is far more inbred than any dog. Certainly in small livestock it is done more than in dogs, and old books I have read on farm stock, and the history of race horses would bear this out.

I stand corrected. :D Was refering to the people who I know personally that breed horses (Arabians) and cattle. I should have been more clear on that.

And who on earth told you to use such a name! HEEhee, should be brainy... I've never seen you post anything that was brainless.
QT