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Topic Dog Boards / Health / Homoeopathy - long
- By JoFlatcoat (Moderator) [gb] Date 09.11.01 21:33 UTC
Just picked this up from New Scientist - very interesting
Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

NEW SCIENTIST WEEKLY NEWSLETTER
No. 110, 10 November 2001
Andy Coghlan

Bizarre chemical discovery gives homeopathic hint
It is a chance discovery so unexpected it defies belief and threatens to
reignite debate about whether there is a scientific basis for thinking
homeopathic medicines really work.

A team in South Korea has discovered a whole new dimension to just about
the simplest chemical reaction in the book - what happens when you
dissolve a substance in water and then add more water.

Conventional wisdom says that the dissolved molecules simply spread
further and further apart as a solution is diluted. But two chemists have
found that some do the opposite: they clump together, first as clusters of
molecules, then as bigger aggregates of those clusters. Far from drifting
apart from their neighbours, they got closer together.

The discovery has stunned chemists, and could provide the first scientific
insight into how some homeopathic remedies work. Homeopaths repeatedly
dilute medications, believing that the higher the dilution, the more potent
the remedy becomes.

Some dilute to "infinity" until no molecules of the remedy remain. They
believe that water holds a memory, or "imprint" of the active ingredient
which is more potent than the ingredient itself. But others use less dilute
solutions - often diluting a remedy six-fold. The Korean findings might
at last go some way to reconciling the potency of these less dilute
solutions with orthodox science.

Completely counterintuitive

German chemist Kurt Geckeler and his colleague Shashadhar Samal
stumbled on the effect while investigating fullerenes at their lab in the
Kwangju Institute of Science and Technology in South Korea. They found
that the football-shaped buckyball molecules kept forming untidy aggregates
in solution, and Geckler asked Samal to look for ways to control how these
clumps formed.

What he discovered was a phenomenon new to chemistry. "When he diluted
the solution, the size of the fullerene particles increased," says
Geckeler. "It
was completely counterintuitive," he says.

Further work showed it was no fluke. To make the otherwise insoluble
buckyball dissolve in water, the chemists had mixed it with a circular
sugar-like molecule called a cyclodextrin. When they did the same
experiments with just cyclodextrin molecules, they found they behaved the
same way. So did the organic molecule sodium guanosine monophosphate,
DNA and plain old sodium chloride.

Dilution typically made the molecules cluster into aggregates five to 10 times
as big as those in the original solutions. The growth was not linear, and it
depended on the concentration of the original.

"The history of the solution is important. The more dilute it starts, the
larger the aggregates," says Geckeler. Also, it only worked in polar
solvents like water, in which one end of the molecule has a pronounced
positive charge while the other end is negative.

Biologically active

But the finding may provide a mechanism for how some homeopathic
medicines work - something that has defied scientific explanation till now.
Diluting a remedy may increase the size of the particles to the point when
they become biologically active.

It also echoes the controversial claims of French immunologist Jacques
Benveniste. In 1988, Benveniste claimed in a Nature paper that a solution
that had once contained antibodies still activated human white blood cells.
Benveniste claimed the solution still worked because it contained ghostly
"imprints" in the water structure where the antibodies had been.

Other researchers failed to reproduce Benveniste's experiments, but
homeopaths still believe he may have been onto something. Benveniste
himself does not think the new findings explain his results because the
solutions were not dilute enough. "This [phenomenon] cannot apply to high
dilution," he says.

Fred Pearce of University College London, who tried to repeat Benveniste's
experiments, agrees. But it could offer some clues as to why other less
dilute homeopathic remedies work, he says. Large clusters and aggregates
might interact more easily with biological tissue.

Double-check

Chemist Jan Enberts of the University of Groningen in the Netherlands is
more cautious. "It's still a totally open question," he says. "To say the
phenomenon has biological significance is pure speculation." But he has no
doubt Samal and Geckeler have discovered something new. "It's surprising
and worrying," he says.

The two chemists were at pains to double-check their astonishing results.
Initially they had used the scattering of a laser to reveal the size and
distribution of the dissolved particles. To check, they used a scanning
electron microscope to photograph films of the solutions spread over slides.
This, too, showed that dissolved substances cluster together as dilution
increased.

"It doesn't prove homeopathy, but it's congruent with what we think and is
very encouraging," says Peter Fisher, director of medical research at the
Royal London Homeopathic Hospital.

"The whole idea of high-dilution homeopathy hangs on the idea that water
has properties which are not understood," he says. "The fact that the new
effect happens with a variety of substances suggests it's the solvent that's
responsible. It's in line with what many homeopaths say, that you can only
make homeopathic medicines in polar solvents."

Geckeler and Samal are now anxious that other researchers follow up their
work. "We want people to repeat it," says Geckeler. "If it's confirmed it will
be groundbreaking".

Journal reference: Chemical Communications (2001, p 2224)
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991532
- By dudleyl [gb] Date 09.11.01 21:53 UTC
Hi Jo, interesting to read, if a bit technical for my brain on a Friday evening. I am attending a talk on homeopathy for dogs next week so I may study this article a bit further and ask some opinions.
Lorna
- By Wirelincs [gb] Date 11.11.01 08:49 UTC
Really interesting and would lean towards supporting Samuel Hahnemann's discoveries in the eighteenth century! the modern father of homeopathy.It is hard to get into the mind set that less is more with homeopathy, with the heavy emphasis of a quick pill of a chemical substance is all that needed to cure the symptoms ethos that we have now.Because homeopathy cannot be understood doesnt mean that it cant work.I always consder the alternative treatment now for the family and dogs unless it is obvious that an immediate solution is needed. I have been using Fragaria on on of the dogs and his tartar has simply melted away.
Diane
- By JoFlatcoat (Moderator) [gb] Date 11.11.01 09:44 UTC
I've been using homoeopathy for years and years, but always use conventional medicine if it is right to do so. There is , and has always been , a desperate need for research into the phenomenon of h'pathy, but like so much else in this world, research is too often motivated by the need and greed of big companies. They are hardly going to be motivated by water, unless, I suppose, it's in the form of Perrier or some such!

Incidentally, what do people do if they use nosodes in their dogs, and really need to put them into kennels for a spell? Are they stuck with kennels who don't insist on vaccination certificates and maybe not that responsible?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats
- By cassie-slave [gb] Date 11.11.01 18:17 UTC
Hi Jo,
when I got my Cassie 17 months ago I did quite a search on kennels both here in Wales, where I live, and in England near Heathrow, where I fly out from quite regularly. At that time I didn’t even know that vaccinations could be potentially dangerous (being a first time dog mum), so the kennels were chosen on merits such as cleanliness, friendliness, heating, size of runs etc etc and the good old “gut feeling”, as well as recommendations from people I trust. When I learnt more about vaccinations and decided to use nosodes instead of the annual booster, I phoned both kennels. The English kennel immediately said they would accept whatever paper work I had (titre test results, invoice for nosodes) and that quite a few of their clients had switched to nosodes. The Welsh kennel had not come across that particular question before, but said that as they knew me and how much I care for my Cassie, they would accept my word for it. I don’t think that makes these 2 kennels less responsible.

Inigo and Cassie the mad lurcher cross
- By JoFlatcoat (Moderator) [gb] Date 11.11.01 18:46 UTC
That's interesting. I probably phrased that last bit incorrectly in my last message - it's good to know that there are folk out there who keep an open mind on the subject - I wasn't implying that anyone who did that was irresponsible. More that you might only get left with kennels who didn't care which bugs they imported. (Still don't know that I've made myself quite clear)

I brought up the subject as we were asking for responsible kennels for a very short term stay when we had a family visit last month, and all the (apparently) good ones were insistant on vaccination certificates, and evidence of titres etc (which is what we do) was no good. So all 8 came with us - luckily family approved

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats
- By cassie-slave [gb] Date 12.11.01 08:21 UTC
Hi Jo,
I do know what you meant with your last comment on your original post - I just wanted to point out that not all responsible kennels are short sighted - so my choice of phrase was not clear either (LOL).
I suppose I can sort of understand why kennels insist on vaccination papers if you are a "first-time-border" - after all they have to protect themselves in accordance to rather stringent insurance stipulations. But once they got to know you, some of them seem to be wiiling to "bend the rules". Maybe I was just lucky with my choice of kennels.
If you want to know the names of the kennels, please email me privately. If they are bending the rules, then I don't want them to get into trouble by posting their details on a public list.
Waggy-tail wishes from Inigo and Cassie
- By cassie-slave [gb] Date 12.11.01 08:24 UTC
PS - And thanks for posting the article - more ammunition to use. Great!
- By westie lover [gb] Date 12.11.01 08:06 UTC
How exciting Jo, I saw the TV programme on the "memory of water" some time ago and found it fascinating, one of those progs that really stick in the mind. Now reading this article and to see some more solid "proof" (especially for the doubting Thomas's who think its all mumbo-jumbo ) that reducing the potency gives a stronger remedy is wonderful. Thanks for taking the time to post it.
- By norm [gb] Date 20.11.01 22:09 UTC
very intersting stuff - although I admit I haven't ploughed through it all in detail - I have been using nosodes for three or four years and find the issue of boarding a bit akward - I know what you mean about some kennels not being - well you know as caring somehow - there is a lady who breeds sheps nad has kennels and accepts dogs without vaccination, but she would accept dogs without anything , if you know what I mean....and I wouldn't feel happy about not contributing some protectiion for my dogs !....but anyhow, her kennels are ok , but the basic perception you get when you drive up, is one of chicken houses ( you know mass broiler sheds ), and lots of corrugated iron - I know dogs aren't bothered about aesthetics - but well.....doesn't exactly instill confidence somehow and she didn't even ask for contact numbers should something happen to the ' in-mate ' ................

Great to hear there are more and more people switching to Hom. nosodes.
- By LorraineB [gb] Date 23.11.01 21:01 UTC
Hi,

Excuse my ignorance but please can someone give me some idea of what nosodes are and where u get them, I do not like the idea of boosters for the dogs every 12 months, and would love to know more.

many thanks

Lorrane
- By Val [gb] Date 23.11.01 21:32 UTC
Hi Lorrane
Nosodes are homoeopathic oral vaccines. They are obtainable from www.ainsworths.com who are very helpful if you telephone them. There is much to learn and understand about homoeopathy before you put pills down your own or your dogs throat. A good place to start may be Dogs:Homoeopathic Remedies by George Macleod £6.95 but borrowable from public libraries. ISBN 0-85207-218-X.
- By LorraineB [gb] Date 27.11.01 23:02 UTC
Thanks Val,

will have a read and a think,

regards

Lorraine
Topic Dog Boards / Health / Homoeopathy - long

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